What's a good response to the equating of catering same sex weddings with Jim Crow laws?

[RestoreTheJoy]

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At what point in this thread did it become the
"Racist Views Against Blacks Thread?

That happens when people cannot defend their assertions on the merits so they fling accusations wildly.

 

[ubicaritas]

I agree with you. There are crazies on both sides. I think doxxing should be a criminal offense. I received a postcard in the mail last week about this. Abortion is wrong, but so is publishing some doctor's address in hopes that he will be attacked.

Nut jobs.

Well, can't you see how labeling somebody a pervert enables the same sort of extremism?

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

So many parallels exist between what's happening in the gay-rights movement and what occurred in previous civil-rights movements. The same angry and emotional arguments being made against homosexuals who want the right to marry were made against blacks who wanted to attend the same schools, eat in the same restaurants, hold the same kinds of jobs and live in the same neighborhoods as whites, and against women who wanted to vote, serve on juries, attend medical school, and be hired for the same jobs as men: "It's not natural. It will upset the social order, and destroy our way of life. It's against religious teachings."
Sheryl McCarthey

No, there are zero parallels, despite the desperate reach to co-opt that successful train. Race is not a behavior or a choice. One can't do an Anne Heche out of being black or Asian. Being a woman is not a behavior or a choice. You are born with the XX chromosomes and are genetically female for life (or male).

By sharp contrast, homosexuality is both a behavior and a choice.

Totally inapplicable comparisons.

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

Well, can't you see how labeling somebody a pervert enables the same sort of extremism?

Can't you see how saying that homosexuality is wrong is not "labeling someone a pervert". The activity is proscribed in scripture and it is perfectly acceptable to say and believe that because God said it.

Would you make the same arguments about other sorts of sexual perversity?

Are extramarital affairs wrong, or are they ok because some people decided they are and they "don't really hurt anyone"?

No, God still says it's wrong, regardless of whatever justifications people create for them. How about inappropriate behavior with animals or child molestation? Are those activities ok today? Nambla is working hard to promote the latter.

Do we have any absolute sexual standards as Christians and are we allowed to say so? Or do we stand idly by while the culture redefines marriage and whatever comes after that, despite God's clear warning on these things? He is the same yesterday, today, and forever....He didn't change his mind on this.

 

[JackRT]

By sharp contrast, homosexuality is both a behavior and a choice.

There is no scientific evidence to support that. Beyond that, why would anyone actually choose to expose themselves to the hatred and abuse that goes along with that "choice". I regard racism and homophobia both as treating a person as an inferior and sometimes even as subhuman.

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

As defined by whom? And whose Bible interpretation? And what business does the government have in enforcing a religious prohibition that most Americans do not share anymore?

As defined by scripture in both Old Testament and New. The Holy Bible is still the definitive outline for Christians, what is acceptable or not. Homosexuality is unequivocally proscribed throughout Biblical History.

 

[ubicaritas]

As defined by scripture in both Old Testament and New. The Holy Bible is still the definitive outline for Christians, what is acceptable or not. Homosexuality is unequivocally proscribed throughout Biblical History.

Lutherans have never considered the Bible an exhaustive, universally applicable guide to ethics or conduct, even assuming that the concept of "homosexual" exists in the Scriptures.

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

There is no scientific evidence to support that. Beyond that, why would anyone actually choose to expose themselves to the hatred and abuse that goes along with that "choice". I regard racism and homophobia both as treating a person as an inferior and sometimes even as subhuman.

What do you mean? Homosexuals - unlike the rest of us - are programmed to have sex and have no control over it? If they do have control over it, it's a choice. The same control I have over whether to let my mind wander to that other person over there and entertain that activity instead of doing the right thing.

I do not acknowledge the presently used inaccuracy of the made-up word "Homophobia".

NO ONE fears homosexuals. Therefore the word is inaccurate.

That said, the scriptures say that activity is outside the realm of acceptability for God's people and this is confirmed throughout scripture.

 

[ubicaritas]

Can't you see how saying that homosexuality is wrong is not "labeling someone a pervert". The activity is proscribed in scripture and it is perfectly acceptable to say and believe that because God said it.

I can't even fathom where "homosexuality is wrong" would come from in this modern day and age. It's part of a worldview that is alien to me.

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

I can't even fathom where "homosexuality is wrong" would come from in this modern day and age. It's part of a worldview that is alien to me.

Really? You don't know where it comes from but you say you are Lutheran, so presumably a Christian believer? Have you read the Bible? You really can't get to the pro-gay position from scripture.

Romans 1 alone settles it.

But if that isn't enough, there is plenty more in scripture, from beginning to end. Even Jesus defines marriage when He says that a man shall leave his father and mother, cling unto his wife, and the two shall be one flesh.

Jude 1:7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.

You simply cannot rationally argue that the Holy Bible is not (supposed to be) a moral guideline for the believer or that it does not condemn homosexuality. Because both are just the truth.

Even the Lutherans, though large numbers have capitulated to this recent concept that homosexuality is acceptable, are split. The Missouri Synod (and some other smaller groups) adhere to biblical proscriptions. You did not know this?

 

[JackRT]

What do you mean? Homosexuals - unlike the rest of us - are programmed to have sex and have no control over it? If they do have control over it, it's a choice. The same control I have over whether to let my mind wander to that other person over there and entertain that activity instead of doing the right thing.

They have no choice on being a homosexual. They do have a choice on how they act on that. Heterosexuals like you and I are free to court and marry without fear of social condemnation or physical threats. There is an innate social inequity in that.

I do not acknowledge the presently used inaccuracy of the made-up word "Homophobia".

All words are made up. For example, the first ever recorded use of the word "homosexual" was sometime in 1890-1895.

NO ONE fears homosexuals. Therefore the word is inaccurate.

On the contrary there are a great many people that actually are terribly fearful of homosexuals. The word is quite accurate.

That said, the scriptures say that activity is outside the realm of acceptability for God's people and this is confirmed throughout scripture.

Yes, that is the scriptural understanding. Sometimes it is possible to come to new understandings.

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

They have no choice on being a homosexual. They do have a choice on how they act on that. Heterosexuals like you and I are free to court and marry without fear of social condemnation or physical threats. There is an innate social inequity in that.



All words are made up. For example, the first ever recorded use of the word "homosexual" was sometime in 1890-1895.



On the contrary there are a great many people that actually are terribly fearful of homosexuals. The word is quite accurate.



Yes, that is the scriptural understanding. Sometimes it is possible to come to new understandings.

We all have a choice in what we do. For Freedom, Christ has set us free; do not submit again to a yoke of slavery. We don't have to be bound by temptations that come against us, whether to sexual behavior outside of marriage, to being an alcoholic, to being a drug addict, or inappropriate content addict, or a cutter, or anything else.

We can be free. That was the message of Jesus, who came to break the chains and set the captives free.

We can never intentionally and remorselessly leave the confines of the expressed will of God and still be in good standing.

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

We all have a choice in what we do. For Freedom, Christ has set us free; do not submit again to a yoke of slavery. We don't have to be bound by temptations that come against us, whether to sexual behavior outside of marriage, to being an alcoholic, to being a drug addict, or inappropriate content addict, or a cutter, or anything else.

We can be free. That was the message of Jesus, who came to break the chains and set the captives free.Thank the Lord! We have all needed to be set free of something.

We can never intentionally and remorselessly leave the confines of the expressed will of God and still be in good standing.

 

[ubicaritas]

Really? You don't know where it comes from but you say you are Lutheran, so presumably a Christian believer? Have you read the Bible? You really can't get to the pro-gay position from scripture.

Romans 1 alone settles it.

But if that isn't enough, there is plenty more.

Jude 1:7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.

You simply cannot rationally argue that the Holy Bible is not (supposed to be) a moral guideline for the believer or that it does not condemn homosexuality. Because both are just the truth.

Even the Lutherans, though large number have capitulated to this recent concept that homosexuality is acceptable, are split. The Missouri Synod (and some other smaller groups) adhere to biblical proscriptions. You did not know this?

The Missouri Synod split off from German Lutherans in the 19th century over issues completely unrelated to what we are discussing. They generally have had a distance from the Religious Right in the US and the associated politics, at least up until recently, owing to a very distinct religious identity.

I regularly watch Worldview Everlasting on youtube and its produced by some LCMS pastors, and they are a great resource for understanding some traditional Lutheran theology and religion. But even they would agree that the idea of the Bible as "basic instructions before leaving earth" is not Lutheran. They are culturally conservative, of course, and generally opposed to homosexuality but I see that even slowly changing as more gay voices in that church begin to question just how gay people are supposed to hear the Good News as good news if the Word is constantly construed as Bad News for gays.

The ELCA's approach to homosexuality is diverse and tolerant of different perspectives, but generally we are moving in the direction of full inclusion, and congregations are free to call gay pastors as they feel lead. We have been moving in this direction since the 70's, before we even were a unified church and there was just the LCA as the dominant voice of Lutheranism in the US. In the 70's, I believe, the LCA, along with other mainline Protestant religious groups, issued statements affirming the dignity of gay people and that they should be protected from discrimination.

So there is really nothing shockingly revisionist or new about our perspective. It represents a development of post WWII theology that goes all the way back to Bonhoeffer and his view that the church must be in the business of "prayer and righteous deeds" engaged with the world, including with secularism, with a servant mentality, the mind of Christ, not a gated community of the self-righteous.

 

[ubicaritas]

We all have a choice in what we do. For Freedom, Christ has set us free; do not submit again to a yoke of slavery. We don't have to be bound by temptations that come against us, whether to sexual behavior outside of marriage, to being an alcoholic, to being a drug addict, or inappropriate content addict, or a cutter, or anything else.

We can be free. That was the message of Jesus, who came to break the chains and set the captives free.

That attitude is more Keswick theology in its emphasis than a realistic view of the human condition. Lutherans believe in loving human beings in all their complexity and ambiguity, because we believe God does the same.

I believe in a God more like what is presented in Dostoyevsky's works, like in his description of the Last Judgment in Crime and Punishment

At the last Judgment Christ will say to us, “Come, you also! Come, drunkards! Come, weaklings! Come, children of shame!” And he will say to us: “Vile beings, you who are in the image of the beast and bear his mark, but come all the same, you as well.” And the wise and prudent will say, “Lord, why do you welcome them?” And he will say: “If I welcome them, you wise men, if I welcome them, you prudent men, it is because not one of them has ever been judged worthy.” And he will stretch out his arms, and we will fall at his feet, and we will cry out sobbing, and then we will understand all, we will understand the Gospel of grace! Lord, your Kingdom come!”

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

They are culturally conservative, of course, and generally opposed to homosexuality but I see that even slowly changing as more gay voices in that church begin to question just how gay people are supposed to hear the Good News as good news if the Word is constantly construed as Bad News for gays.

.

This argument makes no sense. Gay people are supposed to hear the Good News exactly the same way as all other people - all of whom are in bondage to some kind of sin - hear it, whether thieves or drunkards or swindlers, adulterers etc. People engaging in homosexuality or sexual immorality are not some special category. His freedom is for whosoever will.

As Paul put it in 1 Corinthians 6:
9Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,c 10nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.



....18Flee from sexual immorality. Every other sine a person commits is outside the body, but the sexually immoral person sins against his own body. 19Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own, 20for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

That attitude is more Keswick theology in its emphasis than a realistic view of the human condition. Lutherans believe in loving human beings in all their complexity and ambiguity, because we believe God does the same.

I believe in a God more like what is presented in Dostoyevsky's works, like in his description of the Last Judgment in Crime and Punishment

Oh, it's realistic all right.

God loves us. But Jesus died so we could be free, not bound to various temptations, never getting free.

I have not had a drink in decades. I don't struggle every day and go to meetings, speaking out of my mouth that I am bound to that temptation and powerless, though once I was. The Lord set me free. I'm not special.

Don't tell me it doesn't work that way.

I do appreciate the rational discussion, by the way.

 

[SilverBear]

Why don't you answer all the questions you have been asked on the merits? All you have done is make ad hominem attacks and failed to answer any question put to you. If you do not wish to discuss it in good faith, just say so, and I will move on. But own it.

What I said was this: ALL sexual BEHAVIOR is a choice (absent rape, of course). You are 100 percent in control of which sexual behaviors you wish to pursue and which you choose to decline because they are not acceptable to you. There is no genetic component found, though they are desperately trying, which you obviously know.

behavior isn't orientation.

 

[SilverBear]

I have seen your posts on these forums, and your responses in this thread. I am not a fool. No, a better response would be to provide an actual response, but that would require me to explain the point to you, make sure you actually understand the point (not a superficial interpretation), and then spend the time waiting for you to determine your position so that you can argue the point further.

I don't have that type of time, and I am no longer playing this gigantic role-playing game disguised as a forum just for the sake of the people who don't realize it. So I gave you empty responses. If someone else asked me the question I would likely answer straightly.

I doubt it.


but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

OK people. The implied question was just what fundamental human rights did black shave to fight but gays did not?

Please ask Koan and see what he says.

 

[SilverBear]

Not sure what kind of sites you visit to find that extremist nonsense.

just Google images. i just put in a search for Christians hating gays. tens of thousands of hits came up, these were just in the first couple rows.

This is no way represents the Christian view, any more than the crazy, insane leftist fringe represents all pro-gay sources. Most are rational people who simply don't adhere to the biblical proscription against this, but who would never attack people or promote violence any more than those who do adhere to biblical standards.

the nice image with the interwoven nooses stating this is the solution to same sex marriage comes from the National Organization for Marriage is a non-profit Christian organization that has 1.7 million members.