What's a good response to the equating of catering same sex weddings with Jim Crow laws?

[SilverBear]

No one is promoting a fear of homosexuals.

false claims that gays are targeting Christian business is promoting fear

 

[SilverBear]

What do you mean? Homosexuals - unlike the rest of us - are programmed to have sex and have no control over it? If they do have control over it, it's a choice. The same control I have over whether to let my mind wander to that other person over there and entertain that activity instead of doing the right thing.

I do not acknowledge the presently used inaccuracy of the made-up word "Homophobia".

NO ONE fears homosexuals. Therefore the word is inaccurate.

That said, the scriptures say that activity is outside the realm of acceptability for God's people and this is confirmed throughout scripture.

That happens when people cannot defend their assertions on the merits so they fling accusations wildly.

 

[SilverBear]

We all have a choice in what we do.

but now who you are.

For Freedom, Christ has set us free; do not submit again to a yoke of slavery. We don't have to be bound by temptations that come against us, whether to sexual behavior outside of marriage, to being an alcoholic, to being a drug addict, or inappropriate content addict, or a cutter, or anything else.

grouping gays together with criminals and rapists and the like is promoting fear of gays and lesbians.

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

behavior isn't orientation.

Right.

Any sexual activity in which one voluntarily engages is a choice.

 

[hedrick]

By sharp contrast, homosexuality is both a behavior and a choice.

You keep making an assertion that is contrary to evidence. You can't expect public policy to be made based on such assertions.

What is true is that same-gender sex is a behavior. However homosexual orientation is not.

The ethical question is whether we should ask all homosexuals to be celibate because a misreading of Paul and a word whose definition we don't know say so. Again, it would be silly to base public policy on such a thing.

I agree that this is not precisely the same as race. With race we had a characteristic that was on its own, independent of behavior, considered an abomination. However in both cases it would be a mistake to base public policy on a questionable interpretation of a Christian text.

 

[JIMINZ]

You keep making an assertion that is contrary to evidence. You can't expect public policy to be made based on such assertions.

What is true is that same-gender sex is a behavior. However homosexual orientation is not.

The ethical question is whether we should ask all homosexuals to be celibate because a misreading of Paul and a word whose definition we don't know say so. Again, it would be silly to base public policy on such a thing.

I agree that this is not precisely the same as race. With race we had a characteristic that was on its own, independent of behavior, considered an abomination. However in both cases it would be a mistake to base public policy on a questionable interpretation of a Christian text.

Then explain those apparent discrepancy's what is the misinterpretation?

Don't just say there is a discrepancy without showing where and what it is.

 

[Sketcher]

"I still hear people say that I should not be talking about the rights of lesbian and gay people and I should stick to the issue of racial justice, But I hasten to remind them that Martin Luther King Jr. said, 'Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.' I appeal to everyone who believes in Martin Luther King Jr.'s dream to make room at the table of brother- and sisterhood for lesbian and gay people,"
Coretta Scott King

A weak link at best.

“Discrimination is discrimination, no matter who the victim is, and it is always wrong. There are no ‘special rights’ in America, despite the attempts by many to divide blacks and the gay community with the argument that the latter are seeking some imaginary ‘special rights’ at the expense of blacks.”
Julian Bond – Chair of the NAACP

More context is needed to judge the statement.

So many parallels exist between what's happening in the gay-rights movement and what occurred in previous civil-rights movements. The same angry and emotional arguments being made against homosexuals who want the right to marry were made against blacks who wanted to attend the same schools, eat in the same restaurants, hold the same kinds of jobs and live in the same neighborhoods as whites, and against women who wanted to vote, serve on juries, attend medical school, and be hired for the same jobs as men: "It's not natural. It will upset the social order, and destroy our way of life. It's against religious teachings."
Sheryl McCarthey

And this is wrong. Gays had been attending the same schools, eating in the same restaurants, holding the same kinds of jobs, living in the same neighborhoods as straights, voting, serving on juries, and attending medical school well before the same-sex "marriage" debate became a mainstream topic.

 

[SilverBear]

Right.

Any sexual activity in which one voluntarily engages is a choice.

but that doesn't mean sexual orientation is a choice. Orientation exists independently of any sexual activity. This is why virgins have a sexual orientation.



Sexual orientation refers to an individuals enduring pattern of emotional, romantic and/or sexual attractions to men, women or both sexes. Sexual orientation also refers to a person’s sense of identity based on those attractions and membership in a community of others who share those attractions.


Sexual orientation is distinct from other components of sex and gender, including biological sex (the anatomical, physiological and genetic characteristics associated with being male or female), gender identity (the psychological sense of being male or female),* and social gender role (the cultural norms that define feminine and masculine behavior).


Sexual orientation is commonly discussed as if it were solely a characteristic of an individual, like biological sex, gender identity or age. This perspective is incomplete because sexual orientation is defined in terms of relationships with others. People express their sexual orientation through behaviors with others, including such simple actions as holding hands or kissing. Thus, sexual orientation is closely tied to the intimate personal relationships that meet deeply felt needs for love, attachment and intimacy. In addition to sexual behaviors, these bonds include nonsexual physical affection between partners, shared goals and values, mutual support and ongoing commitment. Therefore, sexual orientation is not merely a personal characteristic within an individual. Rather, one’s sexual orientation defines the group of people in which one is likely to find the satisfying and fulfilling romantic relationships that are an essential component of personal identity for many people.

 

[SilverBear]

A weak link at best.


More context is needed to judge the statement.

why? ( i mean aside from the fact you don't like what it says.)

And this is wrong. Gays had been attending the same schools, eating in the same restaurants, holding the same kinds of jobs, living in the same neighborhoods as straights, voting, serving on juries, and attending medical school well before the same-sex "marriage" debate became a mainstream topic.

and you are wrong here.

for generations gays have only been able to do these things by hiding.

There was a time,. not that long ago where being found out as a homosexual meant the loss of your job and home, it meant you could be imprisoned, medically tortured and even killed. up until 1974 homosexuals doctors could be striped of their licence to practice medicine if they were gay. I would love to say such atrocities are in the past but they aren't.

In 29 states it is perfectly legal to fire an employee just because of their orientation. A woman can marry her partner of 20 years, go into work and put a small picture of their wedding on her desk and be fired for doing so.

in 28 states your landlord can evict you if s/he finds out you are gay. Banks can legally dismisses mortgages that have been in place for years. Banks can also refuse to creates mortgage if the buyer is homosexual.

in recent months two states have put forward legislature that would permit any medical professional form doctors to medial aids to paramedics and ambulance drivers to refuse to treat anyone they believed to be a homosexual.

and that is just the tip of the iceberg

 

[JackRT]

And this is wrong. Gays had been attending the same schools, eating in the same restaurants, holding the same kinds of jobs, living in the same neighborhoods as straights, voting, serving on juries, and attending medical school well before the same-sex "marriage" debate became a mainstream topic.

And in many, if not most, cases that changed dramatically when they came out or were discovered.

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

behavior isn't orientation.

Orientation is another co-opted word, a fairly recent acquisition, to support the whole "inborn" mythology.

Pedophilia is an orientation.

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

just Google images. i just put in a search for Christians hating gays. tens of thousands of hits came up, these were just in the first couple rows.


the nice image with the interwoven nooses stating this is the solution to same sex marriage comes from the National Organization for Marriage is a non-profit Christian organization that has 1.7 million members.

Well, of course when you do a targeted search for the most abominable nonsense you can find to support your flimsy accusations, you will find it. I could find pretty much anything.

It means nothing that you managed to find a few fringe things.

You might want to do a little research. The National Organization for Marriage, formed only in 2007 to fight for Proposition 8, has only a few donors, and has also gone into bankruptcy. So, yeah....not a lot of power there, like the millions opposing them.

You are going to have to cite your source for that Noose photo. Not finding that. You can't just post unattributed photos. Probably some fringe guy, just like the crazy stuff on the other side.

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

And in many, if not most, cases that changed dramatically when they came out or were discovered.

Right. Because we all know that gay people are living in the poor areas with dirt floors, ostracized from society.

Give me a break.

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

false claims that gays are targeting Christian business is promoting fear

Not when it is true. It has happened.

When you really just want a cake, you go somewhere and get what you want from someone who wants to do the job. When you really just want to make a political statement, you pretend it's about the cake and then take all efforts to run someone out of business. It worked against Sweet Cakes by Melissa in Oregon. It could work again.

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

but now who you are.


grouping gays together with criminals and rapists and the like is promoting fear of gays and lesbians.

No, no, no.

You ARE what you do. You decide, unless someone has a gun to your head.

This scripture, 1 Corinthians 6: 9-10 lists all of these destructive things this group of now disciples had been doing, Paul said ....until they were washed and cleansed by Jesus and decided they wanted to do what He wants. They lined their actions up with God's plan instead.

I didn't write this, in case that isn't clear to you:

1 Cor 6: 9-10 Or do you not know that the unrighteousb will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, 10nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

You keep making an assertion that is contrary to evidence. You can't expect public policy to be made based on such assertions.

What is true is that same-gender sex is a behavior. However homosexual orientation is not.

The ethical question is whether we should ask all homosexuals to be celibate because a misreading of Paul and a word whose definition we don't know say so. Again, it would be silly to base public policy on such a thing.

I agree that this is not precisely the same as race. With race we had a characteristic that was on its own, independent of behavior, considered an abomination. However in both cases it would be a mistake to base public policy on a questionable interpretation of a Christian text.

People are doing whatever they want, just as they always have, aren't they? We've even enshrined it as acceptable in our laws today. What more do you want?

The cases show us that this isn't enough. It's about wiping out opposition and disparate views, not gaining any sorts of rights.

Public policy only privileged marriage because it was for the protection of children born of the union. Marriage should be enhanced and encouraged. Marriage is best for children.

Same sex individuals cannot have children (and cannot marry, scripturally, anyway), and therefore this reasoning is inapplicable. No one is stopping anyone for having any kind of relationship he wishes to have. We don't even stop philandering, for goodness sakes, and that does damage children.

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

but that doesn't mean sexual orientation is a choice. Orientation exists independently of any sexual activity. This is why virgins have a sexual orientation.



Sexual orientation refers to an individuals enduring pattern of emotional, romantic and/or sexual attractions to men, women or both sexes. Sexual orientation also refers to a person’s sense of identity based on those attractions and membership in a community of others who share those attractions.


Sexual orientation is distinct from other components of sex and gender, including biological sex (the anatomical, physiological and genetic characteristics associated with being male or female), gender identity (the psychological sense of being male or female),* and social gender role (the cultural norms that define feminine and masculine behavior).


Sexual orientation is commonly discussed as if it were solely a characteristic of an individual, like biological sex, gender identity or age. This perspective is incomplete because sexual orientation is defined in terms of relationships with others. People express their sexual orientation through behaviors with others, including such simple actions as holding hands or kissing. Thus, sexual orientation is closely tied to the intimate personal relationships that meet deeply felt needs for love, attachment and intimacy. In addition to sexual behaviors, these bonds include nonsexual physical affection between partners, shared goals and values, mutual support and ongoing commitment. Therefore, sexual orientation is not merely a personal characteristic within an individual. Rather, one’s sexual orientation defines the group of people in which one is likely to find the satisfying and fulfilling romantic relationships that are an essential component of personal identity for many people.

Your source? You lifted this from some biased source. You did not write this. Cite your sources.

I don't buy the concept of "orientation" as if it is an entity by itself, unassailable. We are hardwired to produce children and perpetuate the species. Sometimes something goes wrong, just as sometimes something physically goes wrong. We need to figure out why suddenly that is happening at massive rates. It's got to be environmental, at least in part.

 

[JackRT]

Right. Because we all know that gay people are living in the poor areas with dirt floors, ostracized from society.

Give me a break.

Have you ever been afraid of being beat up for letting it be known that you are heterosexual?

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

Have you ever been afraid of being beat up for letting it be known that you are heterosexual?

Not yet, because I don't frequent places where that might happen. It could easily happen if I decided to attend some rabid meeting and dared to state the truth. I could plan it in advance and have cameras ready to catch it, but I'm not into doing set ups like that.

I do have some common sense but there have been times when I have had concern because of gender, apparent income, size, assumption I'm not armed, in a remote area or other factors.

 

[SilverBear]

Orientation is another co-opted word, a fairly recent acquisition, to support the whole "inborn" mythology.

Pedophilia is an orientation.

the claim that pedophilia is an orientation is a very recent claim fabricated to foster fear, discrimination and even violence.