What would you as an annihilationist have said?

[zoidar]

@Saint Steven

I think like @zoidar wrote though, it’s not a let’s prove or disprove the merits of annihilationism topic.

On a social level, proper annihilationists wouldn’t feel it’s inappropriate, they’re unashamed of their theology, but again, faint hearts, ya know. Sometimes the people they’re talking to can overwhelm them or even invoke a sense of protectiveness in the annihilationist.

They’d know it’s a tough pill to swallow and that shielding people from pain is sometimes the better road, rather than blasting them with the pure factz(!) of their theology.

If someone asked my positition I am not ashamed to say it. That we need to be saved, and if we don't belong to Jesus we will perish. But I can never say I know the final outcome of a person. For the individual we are always to hope for salvation, at least I feel that way, I know some don't.

 

[Jipsah]

I said some Christians believe in annihilation, that unbelievers will cease to exist after death. Then she said: "Like atheists believe happens to everyone?" I didn't know how to answer that.

My answer would have been "Yes". Either way, the dead not only no longer exist, they have never existed. Julius Caesar no more exists than does Sherlock Holmes. They're both figures in literature, and for all practical purposes were never anything else. If annihilation is true, in either a theistic or atheistic perspect, then when that person dies, even the universe in which they lived ceases to exist.

I finally said that those who will be destroyed will know exactly what they have missed out on.

I don't have any reason to believe that to be true. Why show something to a being who in a moment will never have existed at all?

I hope I haven't given her reason to stay an unbeliever.

When an unbeliever dies, everything they have known dies with them. I don't see that as a partictularly cheery thought.

 

[Hmm]

Would be good to know what to say next time.

Someone once said - I forget who - that no theology is worth believing if it cannot be said standing the gates of Auschwitz. I think this also applies to funerals. I could never say to someone who has lost a loved one that there is even a chance that they may be annihilated, or eternally tormented)come to that, by God. I could only say that I believe that they will be reunited again in heaven.

 

[Saint Steven]

If someone asked my positition I am not ashamed to say it. That we need to be saved, and if we don't belong to Jesus we will perish. But I can never say I know the final outcome of a person. For the individual we are always to hope for salvation, at least I feel that way, I know some don't.

Well, in that case, your position on the final judgment has nothing to do with it. How would being an Annihilationist, Damnationist or UR proponent have any bearing on what you said?

 

[Cormack]

@zoidar

Mmhmm, but the big crunch in this topic is that something about the woman’s complaint kinda sticks in the jaw or makes sense, right?

If annihilationism were true, then it doesn’t ultimately matter that God exists, the atheists end is non existence regardless, no different than if atheism were true and there was no God.

From the atheists point of view non existence from expiring under random naturalistic processes is no different than non existence from being destroyed by God.

I think her complaint or observation was right, that doesn’t mean annihilationism is true or false, but it does mean that in the grand scheme of things naturalism and annihilationism share a feature, the feature being a total destruction of the creature.

 

[Jipsah]

That reminds me of a time when someone asked me to pray for someone who had died, from what I experienced, I think he might have been in hell.

Why do we persist in acting as though God was bound by time as we are? He can as easily answer our prayers in our past as in our future. Our Lord didn't say "before Abraham was, I was", He said "before Abraham was, I am". He can answer the prayer you prayed today two weeks ago, or two centuries ago, or two millennia.

 

[Saint Steven]

Someone once said - I forget who - that no theology is worth believing if it cannot be said standing the gates of Auschwitz. I think this also applies to funerals. I could never say to someone who has lost a loved one that there is even a chance that they may be annihilated, or eternally tormented)come to that, by God. I could only say that I believe that they will be reunited again in heaven.

We have it easy compared to them. - lol

 

[Saint Steven]

I think her complaint or observation was right, that doesn’t mean annihilationism is true or false, but it does mean that in the grand scheme of things naturalism and annihilationism share a feature, the feature being a total destruction of the creature.

I suppose the shared feature would be the outcome. One road is smooth, the other is rough. - lol

 

[zoidar]

Someone once said - I forget who - that no theology is worth believing if it cannot be said standing the gates of Auschwitz. I think this also applies to funerals. I could never say to someone who has lost a loved one that there is even a chance that they may be annihilated, or eternally tormented)come to that, by God. I could only say that I believe that they will be reunited again in heaven.

It is hard, because I can't say to the person I know they will be united with their loved one. To me that would be like being dishonest, because I don't know. There are still many things I can do: Point to that God is just, forgiving and loving and I can also pray with him/her.

 

[Jipsah]

So you think that God is somehow constrained by what mortal men can or cannot do?

If we're to consider Him the basis for our proper moral order, yeah. Otherwise our moral percepts are simply arbitrary.

 

[Cormack]

I remember reading from the original post that you told her that her ex boyfriend would know exactly what he’s missed out on. I’m glad that did some good for her or lifted her spirits or she took it well somehow, but I’m not sure how it would have. Maybe you just had to be there to properly understand or maybe I’m misunderstanding it right here.

Still, insisting that the lost soul will get to know exactly what they’re missing out on, that struck my heart as being very sad. I don’t think I’d take that answer well at all.

Maybe because I’m happy with Christ and I’m happy knowing everything I’ve got from my trust in Him, the idea of not having it as an atheist, but being shown it and being shown all that I’ve lost at the judgment seat, that seems so terrible to me.

In that sense on a relative level, the atheist would suffer far more pain if God and annihilationism were true.

He wouldn’t just sleep a dreamless sleep like on atheism.

instead he’d be woken first, shown everything he’s lost, then go back to that state, his last state of existence being a sense of absolute loss.

it’s so grim.

 

[Hmm]

It is hard, because I can't say to the person I know they will be united with their loved one. To me that would be like being dishonest, because I don't know. There are still many things I can do: Point to that God is just, forgiving and loving and I can also pray with him/her.

I agree, it would be dishonest but IMO that's not to say that it wouldn't be justified. It makes me glad I'm a universalist though!

 

[Jipsah]

@zoidar
If annihilationism were true, then it doesn’t ultimately matter that God exists, the atheists end is non existence regardless, no different than if atheism were true and there was no God.

True - to the atheist. He will cease to have been, not even leaving a gap. For the blessed, on the other hand, it's eternal life in the presence of God. Quite a contrast, innit? Live forever in bliss, or never have lived at all. Hmmm..... Kind of an IQ test there.

 

[Jipsah]

It seems that you guys are Annihilationists in your head, but Universalists in your heart.

I'll plead guilty to that charge.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Congratulations. You are the most dedicated Damnationist I have ever met.

It's not about being dedicated. It's about being truthful, both with myself and with God.

I believe the Christian God is God. I also believe this God has communicated to us certain truths, and some of those truths definitely concern punishment and the afterlife.

I believe we can't look at those truths and declare them either right or wrong - as clay, I am unable to act as judge of the potter. These truths simply are.

We can look at them and declare we wouldn't worship a God like that and then go our own way, He certainly gives us that option.

But the option we absolutely do not have is to recreate Him into our image - which some do by reading their own ideas into Scripture - instead of reading Scripture, they twist this and that until it all fits into their ideal mould.

What they end up with is a God that is no God at all but rather an idol they themselves created the same as if they had whittled it from wood.

Rather than make for myself an idol or walk away, I choose to say I believe this is God and therefore I will worship Him. He is deserving of my worship even when I may not understand all things right now. I believe God is Holy and Just, and that His judgements are righteous - so I leave the final determination into His Hand.

 

[zoidar]

I agree, it would be dishonest but IMO that's not to say that it wouldn't be justified. It makes me glad I'm a universalist though!

Do you have your hope for salvation in Jesus? I assume you do, but why, if there is no need for having our hope in him to be saved?

 

[Hmm]

Do you have your hope for salvation in Jesus? I assume you do, but why, if there is no need for having our hope in him to be saved?

Yes, Christian universalism - to distinguish it from an ”All roads lead to Rome" kind of universalism - says that we are saved only through Jesus, the same as with any other Christian tradition. I believe that I and everyone else will ultimately be saved but I still hope that I or my loved ones won't have to go though a possibly eon length period of difficult correction in hell before we are fully reconciled with God.

 

[zoidar]

@Hazelelponi

I'm very sorry about your daughter, but I'm glad you find your comfort in God. Life is sometimes extremely hard, we both know that, but we have our hope in him who conquered death and was resurrected for our salvation.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Why do we persist in acting as though God was bound by time as we are? He can as easily answer our prayers in our past as in our future. Our Lord didn't say "before Abraham was, I was", He said "before Abraham was, I am". He can answer the prayer you prayed today two weeks ago, or two centuries ago, or two millennia.

Did I persist a such thing?

Interesting reply though.

 

[Jipsah]

Did I persist a such thing?
Interesting reply though.

I think we all tend to think that way by default, not specifically you.