What would you as an annihilationist have said?

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The topic of suicide introduced by the OP is one that I treat with great respect for the suffering of those who think there is no other option. My son's platoon which experienced horrors overseas that I can only imagine has had several young men who have not been able to cope and adjust to civilian life again, and have taken their own life in desperation and despair.

When I study scripture, I see the example of Saul who also committed suicide. Yet the spirit of Samuel summoned by the witch at Endor told Saul that both he and his sons would be with him that day. Saul shared the same destination as his very godly son Jonathan who died that day, even though we know that Saul had committed great offenses towards God and towards David. Things are not always as cut and dried as we think them to be. I suspect that one day in glory we will be amazed at finding out which ones God chose to display His mercy towards. And which ones He didn't.
 
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Der Alte

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Not sure how you extract the idea of a "Constraint" put upon God from what I wrote....
In the same way God told Adam what the consequences would be for disobedience, under Mosaic law, the people knew what consequences God had decreed for certain offenses. What I can learn from the list of punishments decreed by God for ancient Israel is that He was not and is not invested in sadistic torment with no end for any sins committed by mankind. Forty stripes was the limit God put on the sentence the judge passed down to the offender under Mosaic law - not endless flogging. Yet if the offense was egregious enough, the very worst punishment decreed by God for that sin was the death penalty - not endless torment. Over and done with.
When it comes time to interpret passages that SEEM to show perpetual suffering for all eternity, we have to reconcile them with these other exhibitions of God's mercy in scripture, even for the wicked. That and the fact that our understanding of the intended meaning behind the ancient languages' terminology is not always correct.
…..Concerning only the existence not the validity of the historical faith, beliefs and practices of the ancient Jews, three incontrovertible Jewish sources are quoted, below; the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud.
…..According to these sources, among the יהודים/Yehudim/ιουδαιων/Youdaion/Jews in Israel, before and during the time of Jesus, there was a significant belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom, which are translated hades and gehenna, respectively, in both the 225 BC LXX and the NT.
…..There were different factions within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. These differing beliefs do not rebut, refute, alter or disprove anything in this post.

[1] Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);[“Soon” in this verse would be about 700 BC +/-]
[Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT any assumed/alleged bias of “modern” Christian translators. DA]
(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell(B.M. 83b).
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [שאול/Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch [x. 6, xci. 9, etal] also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according toIsa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).

Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online
Note, scripture references are highlighted in blue.
= = = = = = = = = =

[2] Encyclopedia Judaica:
Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.
…..During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; ). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
Gehinnom
http://www.jevzajcg.me/enciklopedia/Encyclopaedia Judaica, v. 07 (Fey-Gor).pdf
= = = = = = = = = =
[3] Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [i.e. followers of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]:
"And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written[Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more.
Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link: Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.
When Jesus taught e.g.,
• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell [Γέεννα/gehenna] where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Note: Mentioned 3 times Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24
• “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12
…..These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned a then existing significant Jewish view of eternal hell, outlined above.
In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a punishment worse than death or nonexistence.
…..A punishment worse than death without mercy is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
…..how much sorer punishment,””Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord,””It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God” certainly does not sound like everyone will be saved, no matter what.
…..Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He intended to say eternal death, in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.
….The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that it was permanent and often it did not involve punishment.
When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” the Sadducees would not have understood it as simply death, it would have meant something worse to them.
…..Concerning “punishment” one early church father wrote,

“Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.” Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 4
…..Jesus undoubtedly knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If that Jewish teaching was wrong, why didn’t Jesus tell them there was no hell, no eternal punishment etc? Why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment,” etc. to Jews who believed, "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity," which would only encourage and reinforce their beliefs in “hell”?
 
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There is a difference between "eternal punishment" and "eternal punishing".

Eternal punishment means the actual sentence of perishing in death is never rescinded. The person in question is never given another chance to "live again", as the resurrected saints do. The emphasis in this case is on the perpetuity of the sentence handed out. I believe Christ teaches this in scripture.

Eternal punishing would indicate that the one experiencing the sentence passed upon them would continue to live and endure that punishing. I.e, the eternal torment experience you are espousing. The emphasis in that case would be on the perpetual existence of the individual subject instead of the sentence given to them.

Your construct of eternal torment puts no actual difference between an eternal living state of either the righteous or the wicked. BOTH have eternal life of some kind. This is in error, as I see Christ in scripture presenting a totally different case for the two . It's either eternal life, or it's a state of eternally remaining in a dead state.
 
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Saint Steven

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If you are an annihilationist, what would you have said? Would be good to know what to say next time.
At its core, Annihilationism is a more humane form of Damnationism. There is biblical support for all three doctrines of the final judgment. (including Ultimate Redemption - UR)

And no, it is not like Atheism, where a person supposedly ceases to exist at physical death. All of this you probably already know.

So, the best hope an Annihilationist can offer is that "you hope" that their lost loved will not suffer for all eternity.

It's not easy to sugar-coat the idea that they will be incinerated. Other than to say that it will be over quickly enough. And claim that you believe the punishment will be be just. Not much comfort to be found in any of this. (which should tell you something)
 
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zoidar

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At its core, Annihilationism is a more humane form of Damnationism. There is biblical support for all three doctrines of the final judgment. (including Ultimate Redemption - UR)

And no, it is not like Atheism, where a person supposedly ceases to exist at physical death. All of this you probably already know.

So, the best hope an Annihilationist can offer is that "you hope" that their lost loved will not suffer for all eternity.

It's not easy to sugar-coat the idea that they will be incinerated. Other than to say that it will be over quickly enough. And claim that you believe the punishment will be be just. Not much comfort to be found in any of this. (which should tell you something)

I think there is always hope. So I never say I know where he or she will end up. I don't want to speculate, but I have said it many times and I say it again, it's not over until after the day of judgement. Then we will know.
 
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Saint Steven

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I think there is always hope. So I never say I know where he or she will end up. I don't want to specualate, but I have said it many times and I say it again, it's not over until after the day of judgement. Then we will know.
Not sure how you can qualify that from the perspective of being an Annihilationist. What hope is there for the lost within Annihilationism? None. They will be incinerated. Is that what you call hope?

It seems that the only hope an Annihilationist can offer is the hope that they are wrong. (let that sink in)
 
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zoidar

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Not sure how you can qualify that from the perspective of being an Annihilationist. What hope is there for the lost within Annihilationism? None. They will be incinerated. Is that what you call hope?

It seems that the only hope an Annihilationist can offer is the hope that they are wrong. (let that sink in)

For the lost? None! But we don't know who will be lost. Only God knows that. There is always hope the person meets Christ before the soul leaves the body.
 
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Saint Steven

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For the lost? None! But we don't know who will be lost. Only God knows that. There is always hope the person meets Christ before the soul leaves the body.
In your OP the person you were talking to knew that her boyfriend wasn't saved. Is your best hope to say that "Only God knows."? That's pretty thin. What are the options within your "Only God knows."?
 
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zoidar

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In your OP the person you were talking to knew that her boyfriend wasn't saved. Is your best hope to say that "Only God knows."? That's pretty thin. What are the options within your "Only God knows."?

I lost a very close friend a few years ago who wasn't a believer. The hope I have for him is that God is merciful and forgiving. I hope my dear friend got or gets reconciled with God some way. That's my hope.
 
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Saint Steven

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I lost a very close friend a few years ago who wasn't a believer. The hope I have for him is that God is merciful and forgiving. I hope my dear friend got or gets reconciled with God some way. That's my hope.
That would be a hope in Ultimate Redemption, or Universal Reconciliation. That hope is not available to the Annihilationist.

It seems that on Sunday morning Christians are either Damnationists or Annihilationists. But at a funeral for those outside of Christianity they want to be Ultimate Redemptionists.
 
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zoidar

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That would be a hope in Ultimate Redemption, or Universal Reconciliation. That hope is not available to the Annihilationist.

It seems that on Sunday morning Christians are either Damnationists or Annihilationists. But at a funeral for those outside of Christianity they want to be Ultimate Redemptionists.

No, that's not a hope in UR, that's a hope for my friend. In truth I don't know, but I hope to see him again. I would love to believe in UR, but I can't because I don't believe it's true.
 
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No, that's not a hope in UR, that's a hope for my friend. In truth I don't know, but I hope to see him again. I would love to believe in UR, but I can't because I don't believe it's true.

I would just explain it as "to my knowledge" my freind died an unbeliever.

To my knowledge my daughter did too, but the fact she had access to, and read the Bible before she died gives me hope that before her death she found Christ.

Same with your freind, there is hope so it is only "To your knowledge". As much can occur outside of our knowledge...

And in all things, we place our faith and trust in God, that He is just and true. We can trust those we love in His capable Hand, regardless.
 
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Saint Steven

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No, that's not a hope in UR, that's a hope for my friend. In truth I don't know, but I hope to see him again. I would love to believe in UR, but I can't because I don't believe it's true.
Well, that is quite a conundrum.
You wrote in reference to your friend: "The hope I have for him is that God is merciful and forgiving."

Explain how that hope of mercy and forgiveness is available through Annihilationism in the afterlife. (it's not) Annihilationism says, if you are lost, you are toast.
 
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Saint Steven

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I would just explain it as "to my knowledge" my freind died an unbeliever.

To my knowledge my daughter did too, but the fact she had access to, and read the Bible before she died gives me hope that before her death she found Christ.

Same with your freind, there is hope so it is only "To your knowledge". As much can occur outside of our knowledge...

And in all things, we place our faith and trust in God, that He is just and true. We can trust those we love in His capable Hand, regardless.
It seems that you guys are Annihilationists in your head, but Universalists in your heart.
 
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Saint Steven

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And in all things, we place our faith and trust in God, that He is just and true. We can trust those we love in His capable Hand, regardless.
Wouldn't that be a hypocritical claim for a Damnationist or Annihilationist?
 
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zoidar

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Wouldn't that be a hypocritical claim for a Damnationist or Annihilationist?

I think it's fine with the tension. On one hand I believe in the double outcome, and on the other hand I hold firm to hope.
 
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I think it's fine with the tension. On one hand I believe in the double outcome, and on the other hand I hold firm to hope.
I don't see room for either Damnationism or Annihilationism in that statement. Am I misunderstanding you?

What do you mean by "double outcome"?
 
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It seems that you guys are Annihilationists in your head, but Universalists in your heart.

No. I believe in eternal torment for those who die separated from God..

We are saved because we have placed our faith in Christ. FAITH is synonymous with Trust. We trust in the Triune God in all things; this means trusting Him with those we love too, even if we cannot confirm with any level of certainty the state of their salvation.

Here lies my daughter, who once read the Bible and soon after died. She never told me she was saved but I hope she found His Truth in those pages I once allowed her to read.

If she didnt, I trust my God in all things, even with her soul.

If I couldn't give her over into His Hand, I find it doubtful I could call myself saved through faith. I don't need to make the Bible say anything other than what I read it to say... I simply trust God.
 
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No. I believe in eternal torment for those who die separated from God..

We are saved because we have placed our faith in Christ. FAITH is synonymous with Trust. We trust in the Triune God in all things; this means trusting Him with those we love too, even if we cannot confirm with any level of certainty the state of their salvation.

Here lies my daughter, who once read the Bible and soon after died. She never told me she was saved but I hope she found His Truth in those pages I once allowed her to read.

If she didnt, I trust my God in all things, even with her soul.

If I couldn't give her over into His Hand, I find it doubtful I could call myself saved through faith. I don't need to make the Bible say anything other than what I read it to say... I simply trust God.
If you get to heaven and don't find your daughter there, what will you do?
 
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