LDS What would it take?

He is the way

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Is there anything decent in the Book of Mormon? Apart from the not smoking tobacco, which I figure some people knew anyway.

I had a browse through it briefly, but it read like some kind of really bad historical fantasy novel. The Old & New Testament are packed with pithy sayings.
The word of wisdom is not in the Book of Mormon, it is in the D&C. It was written in 1833 long before smoking tobacco was considered unhealthy:

"Lung cancer was once a very rare disease, so rare that doctors took special notice when confronted with a case, thinking it a once-in-a-lifetime oddity. Mechanisation and mass marketing towards the end of the 19th century popularised the cigarette habit, however, causing a global lung cancer epidemic. Cigarettes were recognised as the cause of the epidemic in the 1940s and 1950s, with the confluence of studies from epidemiology, animal experiments, cellular pathology and chemical analytics. Cigarette manufacturers disputed this evidence, as part of an orchestrated conspiracy to salvage cigarette sales."
From: The history of the discovery of the cigarette-lung cancer link: evidentiary traditions, corporate denial, global toll. - PubMed - NCBI
 
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mmksparbud

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What about the health benefits of coffee?

Far more disadvantages to caffeine than benefits. For us--SDA--it is caffeine, not just coffee. It makes no sense to me to avoid coffee and still allow other caffeinated drinks. I can drink about 1/4 c of anything caffeinated and then my heart starts going crazy.
 
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mmksparbud

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Most a.m. coffee drinkers don't realize it, but their morning cups of coffee set their bodies up for a rollercoaster day of highs and lows, only to bottom out at the point of exhaustion. Just a few hours after consumption, when the artificial high dies down, many people may reach for more coffee or something sugary to get another lift, leading to daily fluctuations in energy and alertness, and possibly to eventual chronic adrenal exhaustion.
just one caffeinated drink – whether it's a soft drink, caffeinated tea or coffee – will put your body on the caffeine rollercoaster. When you consume caffeine, the drug begins its effects by initiating uncontrolled neuron firing in your brain, according to Stephen Cherniske in his book, Caffeine Blues. This excess neuron activity triggers your pituitary gland to secrete a hormone that tells your adrenal glands to produce adrenalin.

Adrenalin is what gives athletes that winning burst of energy and Good Samaritans the ability to rescue people by lifting cars. Adrenalin is also the source of our "fight-or-flight" response, which enabled our prehistoric ancestors to escape from saber-toothed tigers and other predators. By stimulating your adrenal glands to produce adrenalin, caffeine puts your body in this "fight-or-flight" state, which is useless while you're just sitting at your desk. When this adrenal high wears off later, you feel the drop in terms of fatigue, irritability, headache or confusion.

At this point, you may reach for another "hit" of caffeine, followed by another, and another and maybe even one more. If you constantly keep your body on a caffeine high, you're constantly keeping your body in "flight-or-flight" mode.

Cherniske explains your body's "perspective" of this constant state: "Imagine you lived in a country that was always under threat of attack. No matter where you went, there was a perpetual state of alert. Not only that, but your defenses were constantly being depleted and weakened. Does that sound stressful? Caffeine produces the same effect on your body, like fighting a war on multiple fronts at the same time." Cherniske calls your body's constant state of alert "caffeinism," which is characterized by fatigue, anxiety, mood swings, sleep disturbance, irritability and depression.

After prolonged "caffeinism," your body enters a state of adrenal exhaustion. Your caffeine consumption has simply pushed your adrenal glands so much that they've burned out. Ralph T. Golan, ND, describes this unfortunate state in his book, Herbal Defense: "Caffeine forces your glands to secrete when they don't have much left to give, and they have to keep digging deeper and deeper, making you more and more tired over time. And over the years, it takes more and more coffee to get the same result. Some people reach the point of drinking half a dozen or more cups of coffee to get the same result and it's barely keeping them awake. That's severe adrenal depletion."

In other words, caffeine affects your body just like any drug. You start taking it slowly, but as your body develops a tolerance to it, you need more and more to feel the same effects. Eventually, your body reaches a point where it can't be without it; otherwise, you will start to experience withdrawal symptoms.

You may think that you don't drink nearly enough to become addicted to it, but you probably already are. "Careful research conducted by the department of psychiatry and behavioral sciences at Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine shows that low to moderate caffeine intake (as little as one 14-ounce mug per day) can quickly produce withdrawal symptoms," writes Cherniske. Yes, caffeine is a drug, even though it's something that you ingested in your beloved chocolate bars and colas since early childhood.

Instead of reaching for your morning cup of coffee, you can do your body a big favor by eating a healthy breakfast instead. A good breakfast, maintained by a healthy lunch, will keep you energetic all day. You can read News Target's page on breakfast to learn to distinguish between the good and bad breakfast foods, but whatever you do, don't wash it down with a cup of coffee.
The hidden dangers of caffeine: How coffee causes exhaustion, fatigue and addiction

There is more!
 
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His student

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We LOVE Christ and show it by doing as He said:
(New Testament | John 14:15)
15 ¶ If ye love me, keep my commandments.
I will believe what Jesus Christ said. However, no one is going to force you to believe it. You can believe whatever you want to believe. If you want to know more about what Jesus said about the commandments read all of John 14.
I have read it. I have also read the rest of His revelation to us (without the heretical tripe pedaled by the Mormons).

In it's entirety and in context it teaches a different gospel than the one you preach. Yours is no gospel at all.
I LOVE the commandments of LOVE and therefore I strive to keep them.
Join the club.

The difference between you and truly born again Christians is that you believe that doing so will save you (in the most basic sense) whereas the gospel tells us that it will not and in fact you simply cannot keep them.

The later view results in trusting Jesus' work as your only hope of salvation and yours results in death - even as you claim to be alive.

Go get a cup of Joe and perhaps I'll see you on the other side of this life.

I have many Mormon relatives and I pray that I will see you all around the throne of God in spite of your heretical beliefs. Sadly - I doubt very much that I will.
 
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He is the way

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I have read it. I have also read the rest of His revelation to us (without the heretical tripe pedaled by the Mormons).

In it's entirety and in context it teaches a different gospel than the one you preach. Yours is no gospel at all.

Join the club.

The difference between you and truly born again Christians is that you believe that doing so will save you (in the most basic sense) whereas the gospel tells us that it will not and in fact you simply cannot keep them.

The later view results in trusting Jesus' work as your only hope of salvation and yours results in death - even as you claim to be alive.

Go get a cup of Joe and perhaps I'll see you on the other side of this life.

I have many Mormon relatives and I pray that I will see you all around the throne of God in spite of your
(New Testament | Romans 6:1 - 16)

1 WHAT shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

. Sadly - I doubt very much that I will.
I am glad that you have read all of John 14. I also know that we are saved by grace and not works. We could not do enough works to save us. We should all be ecstatic over the atonement. However, once we have learned the way of righteousness we should cease from sin:

(New Testament | 2 Peter 2:20 - 22)

20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

(New Testament | Romans 6:1 - 16)

1 WHAT shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Do you believe this to be heretical tripe?
 
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He is the way

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Of course not. Don't be ridiculous.
Then I will continue telling people to keep the commandments and not to sin because that is what Christ wants us to do. It is our duty to do so:

(Old Testament | Ecclesiastes 12:13 - 14)

13 ¶ Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Yes, each case is different as to what is good news to them, but in the case of the woman caught in adultery, Jesus did not just say "neither do I condemn you", he told her to go "and sin no more" which is other words for 'keep my commandments' from now on, and you will be OK.

Which of these was good news, though? That her accusers no longer had ammunition and Jesus Himself did not condemn her, or that she should sin no more?

If you love Jesus, you will keep his commandments. Of course you cannot keep all of them all of the time. That is why he teaches us to repent, and that his grace is sufficient. But if you do not repent, his grace is not going to be sufficient. If you think you can just go through life and do as you please, because 40 years ago you said you believed, and now Jesus has your back, but you don't have his, you will be sadly disappointed.

If the adulterous woman that Jesus saved from stoning continues in her adulterous ways she will not be saved. IOW once saved does not mean always saved.

The issue I'm interested in is gospel and what makes gospel gospel.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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The good news in these cases is the second and great commandment:

(New Testament | Matthew 22:36 - 40)

36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Except when He told the woman "Neither do I condemn thee" and after said:

(New Testament | John 8:10 - 11)

10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?
11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

So He told her to keep the commandments.

How are these good news? How does the commandment, which brings condemnation, act as good news to me?

-CryptoLutheran
 
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He is the way

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How are these good news? How does the commandment, which brings condemnation, act as good news to me?

-CryptoLutheran
The commandments teach us to LOVE God and our neighbor (fellow man). God is LOVE and therefore LOVE is the greatest thing in the universe. Learning to LOVE the way God LOVES would be an awesome achievement. By keeping the commandments we can be with God:

(New Testament | John 14:21 - 23)

21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

I can not think of any greater news than this or any greater promise. There is one other promise and that is life eternal:

(New Testament | 1 John 2:4)

4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
(New Testament | John 17:3)

3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

How can there be any greater news than this? However, that being said, the great plan of salvation and the atonement of Jesus Christ makes all of this possible.
 
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ViaCrucis

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...How can there be any greater news than this?...

Easily.

"God demonstrates His love toward us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us." - Romans 5:8

Your sins have been forgiven, you are no longer God's enemy, but God's child by grace.

You were dead, now you are alive.

That is the good news.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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RichardY

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@He is the way

I went to look up book of Mormon quotes. And found that Mark Twain likened it to "Chloroform in print".

“All men have heard of the Mormon Bible, but few except the "elect" have seen it, or, at least, taken the trouble to read it. I brought away a copy from Salt Lake. The book is a curiosity to me, it is such a pretentious affair, and yet so "slow," so sleepy; such an insipid mess of inspiration. It is chloroform in print. If Joseph Smith composed this book, the act was a miracle — keeping awake while he did it was, at any rate.”

Mark Twain - "Roughing It".

Coffee, Tea, Tobacco; all stimulants.

Lots of coffee to give up Mormonism? Shot of Adrenalin?

I'd suspect tobacco growers knew of mouth cancers. A few sensible individuals, also figured out the ill effects of smoking, long before it was officially recognised as such.

The potency of the Old & New Testaments are much more pronounced.
 
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He is the way

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Easily.

"God demonstrates His love toward us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us." - Romans 5:8

Your sins have been forgiven, you are no longer God's enemy, but God's child by grace.

You were dead, now you are alive.

That is the good news.

-CryptoLutheran
And as I explained, the atonement made it possible for us to return and to live with God. It is part of the great plan of salvation, but not all of it. There are many parts, faith, repentance, baptism, receiving the Holy Ghost, keeping the commandments, the sacrament, charity, LOVE, humility, tithing, etc. The greatest promises are given by keeping the commandments.
 
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ViaCrucis

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And as I explained, the atonement made it possible for us to return and to live with God. It is part of the great plan of salvation, but not all of it. There are many parts, faith, repentance, baptism, receiving the Holy Ghost, keeping the commandments, the sacrament, charity, LOVE, humility, tithing, etc. The greatest promises are given by keeping the commandments.

Always seeking and never finding. Stumbling in the dark, the blind leading the blind.

Hear and believe: Christ died for you, and in Him you have peace with God.

But as long as you are stumbling in the dark, following after false masters, tripping over your works, seeking performances and the approval of a distant figure that you do not know, you will have no peace.

Christ died for you. Believe the good news.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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He is the way

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@He is the way

I went to look up book of Mormon quotes. And found that Mark Twain likened it to "Chloroform in print".

“All men have heard of the Mormon Bible, but few except the "elect" have seen it, or, at least, taken the trouble to read it. I brought away a copy from Salt Lake. The book is a curiosity to me, it is such a pretentious affair, and yet so "slow," so sleepy; such an insipid mess of inspiration. It is chloroform in print. If Joseph Smith composed this book, the act was a miracle — keeping awake while he did it was, at any rate.”

Mark Twain - "Roughing It".

Coffee, Tea, Tobacco; all stimulants.

Lots of coffee to give up Mormonism? Shot of Adrenalin?

I'd suspect tobacco growers knew of mouth cancers. A few sensible individuals, also figured out the ill effects of smoking, long before it was officially recognised as such.

The potency of the Old & New Testaments are much more pronounced.
Are you sure you want to quote Mark Twain? He also said:

Yes, “our” Christianity is “bad, bloody, merciless, money-grabbing, and predatory”, argues the author, but it is still far preferable to what The Bible has to offer: the invention of hell and the concept of original sin -- what he calls “infant damnation” (Autobiography of Mark Twain, Volume 2. p.132).
From: Who's Better Than Mark Twain at Bible-bashing?

As far as I know, no one knew the connection between cancer and smoking in 1833. If you know of a article from that year or earlier, please post it.
 
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He is the way

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Always seeking and never finding. Stumbling in the dark, the blind leading the blind.

Hear and believe: Christ died for you, and in Him you have peace with God.

But as long as you are stumbling in the dark, following after false masters, tripping over your works, seeking performances and the approval of a distant figure that you do not know, you will have no peace.

Christ died for you. Believe the good news.

-CryptoLutheran
Yes Christ died for us, that is not the whole gospel. You are leaving most of it out.
 
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RichardY

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Are you sure you want to quote Mark Twain? He also said:

Yes, “our” Christianity is “bad, bloody, merciless, money-grabbing, and predatory”, argues the author, but it is still far preferable to what The Bible has to offer: the invention of hell and the concept of original sin -- what he calls “infant damnation” (Autobiography of Mark Twain, Volume 2. p.132).
From: Who's Better Than Mark Twain at Bible-bashing?

As far as I know, no one knew the connection between cancer and smoking in 1833. If you know of a article from that year or earlier, please post it.

Yes, maybe, not the best critique on Christianity.

----------------
There is one notable thing about our Christianity: bad, bloody, merciless, money-grabbing, and predatory as it is – in our country particularly and in all other Christian countries in a somewhat modified degree – it is still a hundred times better than the Christianity of the Bible, with its prodigious crime – the invention of Hell. Measured by our Christianity of to-day, bad as it is, hypocritical as it is, empty and hollow as it is, neither the Deity nor his Son is a Christian, nor qualified for that moderately high place. Ours is a terrible religion. The fleets of the world could swim in spacious comfort in the innocent blood it has spilled.
----------------

I would have tended to agree if he was contrasting Western Christianity with Eastern. There is a lot of dogma and doctrine in the Western. And it is dualistic, compared to Orthodox. Original sin is more of the Western persuasion, and out of St Augustine to a large degree.

Looking more at the literary impact, than whether it is specifically true. I will say Hell as far I know exists, and is not necessarily just an invention.

Freemasonry as Mark Twain was, seems to view religion as more of a tool. Than a literal reality.

------------------

I do not know of any cases. Though I reckon through people chewing tobacco smoking cigars, some must have figured it out. Even if it wasn't publicised.
 
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He is the way

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Yes, maybe, not the best critique on Christianity.

----------------
There is one notable thing about our Christianity: bad, bloody, merciless, money-grabbing, and predatory as it is – in our country particularly and in all other Christian countries in a somewhat modified degree – it is still a hundred times better than the Christianity of the Bible, with its prodigious crime – the invention of Hell. Measured by our Christianity of to-day, bad as it is, hypocritical as it is, empty and hollow as it is, neither the Deity nor his Son is a Christian, nor qualified for that moderately high place. Ours is a terrible religion. The fleets of the world could swim in spacious comfort in the innocent blood it has spilled.
----------------

I would have tended to agree if he was contrasting Western Christianity with Eastern. There is a lot of dogma and doctrine in the Western. And it is dualistic, compared to Orthodox. Original sin is more of the Western persuasion, and out of St Augustine to a large degree.

Looking more at the literary impact, than whether it is specifically true. I will say Hell as far I know exists, and is not necessarily just an invention.

Freemasonry as Mark Twain was, seems to view religion as more of a tool. Than a literal reality.

------------------

I do not know of any cases. Though I reckon through people chewing tobacco smoking cigars, some must have figured it out. Even if it wasn't publicised.
In 1833 there was no established connection between smoking and cancer. The word of wisdom may have seemed unreasonable when it was given, but now we have the evidence.
 
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BigDaddy4

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How can there be any greater news than this?

(New Testament | 1 John 2:4)

4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
It's good news that you are a liar??? :scratch: You already admitted in a previous thread that you don't and can't keep the commandments all the time. I don't know why you keep coming back to this one as "good news", when you can't even keep the commandments.

The greatest news, as ViaCrucis has been trying to explain to you, is:
"God demonstrates His love toward us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us." - Romans 5:8
 
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It's good news that you are a liar??? :scratch: You already admitted in a previous thread that you don't and can't keep the commandments all the time. I don't know why you keep coming back to this one as "good news", when you can't even keep the commandments.

The greatest news, as ViaCrucis has been trying to explain to you, is:
The Gospel is the good news, but you only address part of the gospel. The gospel is much more than that. Faith, hope, repentance, baptism, receiving the Holy Ghost, keeping the commandments, the sacrament, charity, LOVE, works, humility, tithing, etc. are all part of the gospel. When we are able to LOVE the way God LOVES then we will know God because the commandments are LOVE and God is LOVE.
 
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