What will the falling away look like

[stephen583]

The whole "Once Saved, Always Saved" doctrine is contradicted by so many NT scriptural proofs, warnings and prophecies, they would literally fill up this entire page if I chose to post them all.

The idea the Holy Spirit (once accepted) remains with us forever is a MYTH. That only is true, so long as we do not reject the Holy Spirit (commit blasphemy against the Truth).. An unpardonable sin identified in the Gospel (Matthew 12:31), for which no one can be forgiven in this world. or the next.

You'll also read dozens of warnings by Jesus and the Apostles that salvation is conditional and it can be lost by those who turn aside from the Truth.

"No man having set his hand to the plow, and having looked back, is fit for the Kingdom of God" (Luke 9:62).

The Great Falling Away at the Time of the End is a biblical TRUTH ! It refers to the "CHURCH" ! Denying this doctrine is not only delusional, but is part and parcel of the "falling away" from sound doctrine described in Apocalyptic prophecy (2 Timothy 4:3).

 

[ToBeLoved]

The whole "Once Saved, Always Saved" doctrine is contradicted by so many NT scriptural proofs, warnings and prophecies, they would literally fill up this entire page if I chose to post them all.

The idea the Holy Spirit (once accepted) remains with us forever is a MYTH. That only is true, so long as we do not reject the Holy Spirit (commit blasphemy against the Truth).. An unpardonable sin identified in the Gospel (Matthew 12:31), for which no one can be forgiven in this world. or the next.

You'll also read dozens of warnings by Jesus and the Apostles that salvation is conditional and it can be lost by those who turn aside from the Truth.

"No man having set his hand to the plow, and having looked back, is fit for the Kingdom of God" (Luke 9:62).

The Great Falling Away at the Time of the End is a biblical TRUTH ! It refers to the "CHURCH" ! Denying this doctrine is not only delusional, but is part and parcel of the "falling away" from sound doctrine described in Apocalyptic prophecy (2 Timothy 4:3).

I don't think you have proven OSAS Is not true.

I would like to see this page of scripture because what you have used so far isn't proving it.

 

[iamlamad]

I iamlamad. Are you aware that "leaving" is exactly what people are saying the HS will do? The HS will leave behind all those millions of tribulation saints, the 144k, and the 2 witnesses. The opening line of the Revelation says that it is for the servants of Christ. The interpretation put forward so far says the HS will leave the earth, leaving behind those servants who suffer for their faith in the Tribulation.

First we must consider what time it will be: it is called the 70th week of Daniel, and Daniel Himself said it was for HIS PEOPLE. In other words, God will be finishing up the OLD Covenant. In my mind then, it should be as it was a day before the day of Pentecost when the Holy Spirit came. He was certainly on the prophets in those days.

Who exactly will be "left behind?" I can only guess: but my first guess is those that are lukewarm. Second, those that call themselves Christian, and believe they are, but are not born again. Perhaps millions that attend churches around the world will be among them. Are they "saints?" Why will the 144,000 be "left behind?" I can only guess they will not be born again when the trumpet sounds. But it seems they realize after the rapture that Jesus WAS their Messiah and they missed it. So they turn to Jesus immediately after the rapture and then are sealed.

I guess the biggest question we need ask is this: will the born again experience be available after the rapture? Or will all who turn to God then be as Old Covenant saints? I don't know the answer. I am guessing they will become born again, since at this time the death and resurrection of our Lord is history. If they are born again then certainly the Holy Spirit will indwell them. What may NOT be available will be the mighty baptism in the Holy Spirit that came on the day of Pentecost. These are only guesses because God did not make these things clear in His Word.

Again, are you aware that the argument I'm responding to, both from HMFJ and MWood is that the HS DOES leave the Earth? I mean, I did try to present an alternate interpretation to HMFJ in which the HS leaves and then comes back, as a way of making the theory a little more consistent with other evidence of the HS indeed being present in the Tribulation, but she doesn't seem to think that is what will happen either, so it's all still rather confusing, which isn't surprising.

It is just that the bible does not make these things real clear either. Since it is not laid out clearly in scripture, apparently we don't have a need to know!

There is no scripture saying the HS leaves the Earth. Here's the scripture in question:
2THESS 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

The argument is that "taken out of the way" refers to the saints being removed from the Earth and as a result, the HS is also removed from the Earth.

This argument has two problems. One is that the HS is not limited to the saints. The HS is able to exist independently. Just because the believers are removed from the Earth (according to the pre-trib theory) does not equate to the HS being removed from the Earth. The assumption looks to me like an attempt to force the verse to fit the theory.

The second problem is the assumption that "taken out of the way" must mean away from the Earth. Why would God have to completely remove his presence from the Earth in order for Satan to take control? The verse just says "taken out of the way" not "taken away from the Earth".

Some people are so desperate to escape suffering for their faith that they will see a verse like, "taken out of the way" as automatic proof that it's referring to them avoiding suffering.

I don't think so. I think pretribbers, just like posttribbers are trying to correctly understand the end times scriptures and then "let the chips fall where they may," as we say. I am convinced that Paul's meaning in 2 thes. 2 is that by "apostasia" is meant "departure" meaning the rapture. It is really the only way that whole passage makes sense. In that case, the "taken out of the way" fits perfectly the rapture or "gathering" as Paul wrote. Of course the rapture would take us out of this world. Why? His wrath will cover the planet. Tribulation will be everywhere.

Is it not very possible and even probable that it is the Holy Spirit WORKING THROUGH HIS CHURCH that is restraining the Antichrist? In that case, the moment after the rapture, there will be no born again people through which He can work! So immediately the man of sin is revealed. I hope you understand, this planet is run by the devil now, not by God. God's authority here comes through His church. WE have authority because we are born here. And then God added to that HIS authority when he said GO. What can the Holy Spirit legally do here without a man to work through?

Meanwhile, the theory also has another more metaphysical problem. It says that the tribulation saints who actually lay their lives down to overcome the beast must do so without the HS. What a tragic turn of events for courage and faithfulness. The people who run away from the trouble get the HS while the people who face the trouble must do so without the HS? No, I don't need a Bible verse to tell me just how wrong that thinking is.

I am convinced those that are facing beheading will have the Holy Spirit's help, just as the three Hebrew guys did in the fire.

 

[iamlamad]

The whole "Once Saved, Always Saved" doctrine is contradicted by so many NT scriptural proofs, warnings and prophecies, they would literally fill up this entire page if I chose to post them all.

The idea the Holy Spirit (once accepted) remains with us forever is a MYTH. That only is true, so long as we do not reject the Holy Spirit (commit blasphemy against the Truth).. An unpardonable sin identified in the Gospel (Matthew 12:31), for which no one can be forgiven in this world. or the next.

You'll also read dozens of warnings by Jesus and the Apostles that salvation is conditional and it can be lost by those who turn aside from the Truth.

"No man having set his hand to the plow, and having looked back, is fit for the Kingdom of God" (Luke 9:62).

The Great Falling Away at the Time of the End is a biblical TRUTH ! It refers to the "CHURCH" ! Denying this doctrine is not only delusional, but is part and parcel of the "falling away" from sound doctrine described in Apocalyptic prophecy (2 Timothy 4:3).

Unless by "apostasia" Paul meant a departure of the church, rather than a falling away from something which is not stated, which makes more sense.

We are certainly "on the same page" when it comes to losing salvation: it is possible, but it is difficult. Hebrews chapter 6 tells us how. First, it takes a mature Christian. It would be EXTREMELY difficult for a baby Christian to lost his or her salvation. The truth is, we come in by an act of our will, and we can leave the same way. If a mature believe WANTS to leave Christ, they can. God will never override our will.

On the other side, if we CHOOSE to stay with Christ through hell and high water, NOTHING can separate us from His love. We must remember the seed that fell on stony ground and where weeds grew up and choked the good seed out.

 

[iamlamad]

Hi HMFJ. Yeah I'm aware of what the verse says. This is one of those instances where it's important to remember that the Revelation is not a story told in linear time, as though the events in chapter 7 must happen before events in chapter 14. It jumps around from chapter to chapter describing different events, some of which are happening at the same time in different parts of the world or with different people. The numbering system we use to organize the verses is arbitrary and not an indication of timeline. Anyone reading the Revelation as though it is a series of events happening one after the other according to the numbering system we've ascribed to it will almost certainly end up confusing the issues, like you've done with this great multitude thing.

Look at Revelation 7:14. The angel says this Great Multitude has just come out of the Great Tribulation. This multitude can't be the same multitude you're thinking of because they DO go through the Great Tribulation. Or, in others words, get your own multitude! THIS one belongs to the post-tribbers! XD



This is part of the problem I see with the pre-trib doctrine; it's just so selfish. The HS will never leave you. I see you can be quite fierce and passionate about that. But apparently you don't see any problem with the HS leaving behind that great multitude, or the 144k, or the two witnesses.

Either the HS is gone from the Earth or it is not gone from the Earth. They can't both be true at the same time, HMFJ. It's possible that the HS leaves the Earth and then comes back, but that's not what you're saying, either. Look at all the confusion this doctrine creates!



The issue was never about whether or not the HS can be in two places at the same time. The issue is that you're saying the HS WON'T be in two places at once. You're saying the HS leaves the Earth.

Or, have I misunderstood your position on that all this time? I had a look back over some of your previous comments; you definitely say the HS will be removed, though at the same time you say the HS will still be there in Bibles. It makes no sense for the HS to be removed and still be there at the same time, but I think I get where you're coming from now.

It's a convenient doctrine. Since the HS resides in believers, then if the HS is removed, that must also mean that the believers are removed, but that's not what the scripture even says. The HS is able to exist outside of the body. It makes no sense to conclude that if all believers are taken from the Earth that the HS must also be removed from the Earth.

You're using that illogic as an impenetrable defense for your belief, and it's working. There's no way to win an debate against illogic.

Who told you Revelation is not in linear time? Only people who can't make their theories fit as it is written try to rearrange it.

Axiom on Revelation:
ANY theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology is immediately suspect and WILL BE proven wrong.

One simple question: Was the Holy Spirit availailable to the Kings and prophets of the Old Testament LONG before the day of Pentecost?

OF COURSE HE WAS. Common sense tells us when the church leaves, things will be just as it was before the day of Pentecost.

 

[stephen583]

Common sense tells me if Christ is to return as a "Thief in the Night" (as described by numerous scriptures and prophecies, including the Revelation), there can be no "Rapture" of millions of believers prior to the Second Coming.. Someone would definitely notice something like that.

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

Someone would definitely notice something like that.

It will indeed be noticed. Then it is...uh oh!

 

[iamlamad]

All the inhabitants on earth will perish.

Zephaniah 1
18: Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them on the day of the wrath of the LORD. In the fire of his jealous wrath, all the earth shall be consumed; for a full, yea, sudden end he will make of all the inhabitants of the earth.

How interesting: God said the meek shall inherit the earth, yet in His wrath, He forgets that promise and kills off the human race!

 

[iamlamad]

Common sense tells me if Christ is to return as a "Thief in the Night" (as described by numerous scriptures and prophecies, including the Revelation), there can be no "Rapture" of millions of believers prior to the Second Coming.. Someone would definitely notice something like that.

It does not say He LEAVES like a thief in the night. He COMES that way: at a time when no one is suspecting. If we knew WHEN a thief would come, we would be ready. A wise thief never comes when he is expected.

This event will come SUDDENLY and with no warning. Suddenly and instantly the dead in Christ will rise - at a time no one is expecting.

Will the rapture be visible? God does not tell us.

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

Will the rapture be visible? God does not tell us.

Every catching up we saw in the OT and NT was visible and known about. Elijah was seen going up, so was Jesus. God does not change.

 

[stephen583]

Like I said, I'm doubtful a general "Rapture" event could take place without "cluing" everybody in the Second Coming was coming next.

That seems rather improbable to me.

 

[stephen583]

He COMES that way: at a time when no one is suspecting.

Why wouldn't everyone expect him to be coming right after a general "Rapture" event ???

 

[Endtime Survivors]

It is designed to make faith. but you will remain in the dark as long as you are trying to make "logical" sense of everything our Father does.

I understand where you're coming from. God is so far above us that often it feels like his actions and behavior are illogical. Paul talks about those who view the death of Jesus on the cross as foolishness. But, he didn't say the cross was actual foolishness; only that they did not understand the wisdom behind Jesus' death. Its pretty easy to see how the idea of winning through losing isn't particularly appealing. Peter had trouble with it, too, when he rebuked Jesus' talk of being killed in Jerusalem. It's not that the spiritual lesson didn't make sense, but that people chose not to understand.

Something similar happens with the idea of enemy loving. It doesn't seem to make any sense. If our enemy is trying to kill us the sensible thing is to kill them first. But a willingness to show our enemies that there is something more important than life itself (by laying our lives down) makes even more sense, if we choose to see it.

So, there is a valid case for spiritually discerned wisdom and points of view that don't make sense when compared to most worldly views.

But I don't think that's what the evidence shows in this case.

What you're wanting us to believe is that the Holy Spirit leaves the Earth before the Great Tribulation, but that conflicts with the Holy Spirit clearly having a presence on the Earth during the Great Tribulation.

It is still possible that your interpretation could make sense, if the Holy Spirit leaves and then comes back again, but I've tried a few times to ask if that's your position and apparently it's not.

You're saying the Holy Spirit is gone at the same time that it's still there. It makes no sense, so you're using this whole "spiritually discerned" argument to gloss over the lack of sense. I don't think Paul ever meant for his comments to be used to justify nonsense.

God gives us the spirit of a sound mind. Just because we may sometimes be in darkness as to how God works doesn't mean he wants our understanding to stay in darkness. He wants us to exercise wisdom, logic, sense, and understanding. According to what I've heard so far my God-given sound mind is telling me that you're holding on too tightly to this particular verse about being "taken out of the way".

 

[Endtime Survivors]

I am convinced those that are facing beheading will have the Holy Spirit's help, just as the three Hebrew guys did in the fire.

Then the Holy Spirit either does not leave the Earth, or leaves and comes back again. Which one do you think it is?

 

[Endtime Survivors]

Who told you Revelation is not in linear time? Only people who can't make their theories fit as it is written try to rearrange it.

Axiom on Revelation:
ANY theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology is immediately suspect and WILL BE proven wrong.

It's not the order in which John penned the Revelation which was in question, but rather relying on the numbering system which was later added to dictate the order of events.

My position is actually more consistent with your axiom than someone who says the events of chapter 14 must come after the events of chapter 6 based solely on the numbering system.

 

[iamlamad]

Then the Holy Spirit either does not leave the Earth, or leaves and comes back again. Which one do you think it is?

It is not the right question. The Holy Spirit is everywhere. When the rapture takes place, the Holy Spirit who will be indwelling those raptured will certainly go with them.

Does that mean He will not be here at all? No. Was the Holy Spirit on the earth during the Old Covenant? Yes, because the prophets were all anointed by Him. But He was not available for all believers as he was after Pentecost. So I say He will be here, but NOT to anoint believers as He did on the day of Pentecost. He will be here as He was during the Old Covenant. just my opinion. There is very little scripture on this.

 

[iamlamad]

Why wouldn't everyone expect him to be coming right after a general "Rapture" event ???

: -))) Right after the rapture, from earth's prospective, He will be GOING on the way back to heaven!

But those on earth should expect Him again 7 years plus into the future.

 

[iamlamad]

Like I said, I'm doubtful a general "Rapture" event could take place without "cluing" everybody in the Second Coming was coming next.

That seems rather improbable to me.

Said this way I agree with. But "next" will be after 7 years.

 

[iamlamad]

Every catching up we saw in the OT and NT was visible and known about. Elijah was seen going up, so was Jesus. God does not change.

Elijah did not have his resurrection body. Perhaps the two witnesses will.

 

[Endtime Survivors]

It is not the right question.

It's the right question for those who say 2 Thessalonians 2:7 is evidence of a pre-trib rapture on the basis that the Holy Spirit leaves the Earth.