What will the falling away look like

[Handmaid for Jesus]

Like I said, I'm doubtful a general "Rapture" event could take place without "cluing" everybody in the Second Coming was coming next.

That seems rather improbable to me.

The rapture IS the clue brother. People are going to be saying everything except the obvious has happened. There will be some who have missed it who will know, but they will not be heard. They will be arrested and beheaded if they are caught telling others what has happened.

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

I understand where you're coming from. God is so far above us that often it feels like his actions and behavior are illogical.

You were the one talking about what is logical and what is illogical, not me. So preach to yourself. You said what I was saying was illogical. It is not. Not from God's perspective. God is in the believer. If you don't understand that Christ in us is the hope of glory, then you need to spend some quality time with your heavenly Father.

Col. 1:
26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

 

[iamlamad]

It's the right question for those who say 2 Thessalonians 2:7 is evidence of a pre-trib rapture on the basis that the Holy Spirit leaves the Earth.

I think we need to come to a consensus on something more basic: does God have the authority to do whatever He wants on planet earth?

If so, then the Holy Spirit, being God, can hold back the revealing of the man of sin by Himself and no church is needed. On the other hand, if God needs US - His church - for authority, then the Holy Spirit can do nothing except through His church. I think the latter is true.

Therefore the restraining force is the Holy Spirit working through the church - not just the Holy Spirit alone. So when the church goes, suddenly the Holy Spirit has no one on earth to work through. Will He go with the church? Certainly He will, for He indwells them. Will He stay? I think He will stay for new believers. It will be just as it was during the Old Covenant.

 

[Endtime Survivors]

On the other hand, if God needs US - His church - for authority, then the Holy Spirit can do nothing except through His church. I think the latter is true.

I think it would be more accurate to say that God wants to work through us. The idea that the HS can't work on the Earth unless it is through a human comes across as pretty narrow minded. The HS made the Earth with no humans around for it to work through.

 

[Endtime Survivors]

Will He go with the church? Certainly He will, for He indwells them. Will He stay? I think He will stay for new believers.

Sure, the HS could simultaneously escort raptured believers up to Heaven while hanging around on the Earth for new believers coming out of the Great Tribulation. But that's not the argument the pre-tribbers make when it comes to this particular verse. They say the HS leaves the Earth.

 

[iamlamad]

I think it would be more accurate to say that God wants to work through us. The idea that the HS can't work on the Earth unless it is through a human comes across as pretty narrow minded. The HS made the Earth with no humans around for it to work through.

You are missing something: God gave this planet to Adam. When Adam sinned, Satan usurped Adam's lease and became the god of this world. Suddenly, God was on the outside looking in, so to speak, with no authority over this planet He had made. Satan offered to give the kingdoms of the world to Jesus, if Jesus would bow to him, but we know that did not happen!

Therefore, God MUST work through His body on earth to accomplish anything. When all authority was given to Jesus after He rose from the dead, He immediately gave it to the church, when He said "GO..." Is this "narrow minded?" No, it is truth. We pray for God's will to be done on earth, but much of what happens on earth is not His will. For example, it is not His will that a mother of young children die of cancer and leave her family without her. Something like that would NEVER happen in heaven where God's will IS done.

If you read Revelation carefully, you will find that at the 7th trumpet, God gets His planet back, with full authority. Adam's lease expires and the authority and dominion of the kingdoms of the world are transferred to Jesus Christ. Finally then, after 6000 years or man's rule, God has His planet back.

But He has already given the Antichrist Beast 3 1/2 years or authority, so Jesus will wait until after the 70th week has finished to finally take possession.

 

[iamlamad]

Sure, the HS could simultaneously escort raptured believers up to Heaven while hanging around on the Earth for new believers coming out of the Great Tribulation. But that's not the argument the pre-tribbers make when it comes to this particular verse. They say the HS leaves the Earth.

It is a trick question. Was the Holy Spirit on the earth during the Old Testament? Yes, but in a limited way! ONLY the prophets and kings were anointed by the Holy Spirit. So on the day of Pentecost He was suddenly available to anoint ALL believers.

Joel 2:28 And afterward, I will pour out my Spirit on all people....

It is the very verse that Peter quoted on the day of Pentecost.
Acts 2:17 “ ‘In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams.
18 Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy.

God does not come right out and say this, but it would seem that if God finished up the old Covenant with the 70th week of Daniel, then the church age must end. I believe it ends with the rapture of the church. So it would be like the Day of Pentecost reversed. The Holy Spirit being poured out on all believes will end. It will be Old Covenant again.

Did people turn to God during the Old Covenant? Of course they did. But they were not "born again" with the Holy Spirit inside. Since Jesus has already died and risen from the dead, it would seem possible that during the 70th week of Daniel, even though it will be old covenant, people can become born again with the Holy Spirit indwelling them. It is only my opinion. I have never found a verse really spelling this out for us.

By the way, most pretribbers are clueless to some things in Revelation. For example, imagining that the rapture is hidden in Rev. 4:1. Imagining that the "tribulation" or 70th week begins with the first seal. Imagining that the seals are judgment. They are mistaken on all of these points. They have it right that the rapture will come before wrath, but they are mistaken as to when God's wrath begins.

it is good that you question every point they make! Prove all things by scripture, correctly understood.

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

You are missing something: God gave this planet to Adam. When Adam sinned, Satan usurped Adam's lease and became the god of this world. Suddenly, God was on the outside looking in, so to speak, with no authority over this planet He had made. Satan offered to give the kingdoms of the world to Jesus, if Jesus would bow to him, but we know that did not happen!

Therefore, God MUST work through His body on earth to accomplish anything. When all authority was given to Jesus after He rose from the dead, He immediately gave it to the church, when He said "GO..." Is this "narrow minded?" No, it is truth. We pray for God's will to be done on earth, but much of what happens on earth is not His will. For example, it is not His will that a mother of young children die of cancer and leave her family without her. Something like that would NEVER happen in heaven where God's will IS done.

If you read Revelation carefully, you will find that at the 7th trumpet, God gets His planet back, with full authority. Adam's lease expires and the authority and dominion of the kingdoms of the world are transferred to Jesus Christ. Finally then, after 6000 years or man's rule, God has His planet back.

But He has already given the Antichrist Beast 3 1/2 years or authority, so Jesus will wait until after the 70th week has finished to finally take possession.

Amen! Preaach it brother!

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

Sure, the HS could simultaneously escort raptured believers up to Heaven while hanging around on the Earth for new believers coming out of the Great Tribulation. But that's not the argument the pre-tribbers make when it comes to this particular verse. They say the HS leaves the Earth.

I think it is you that have misunderstood what pre-tribbers were saying.

 

[Endtime Survivors]

with no authority over this planet He had made.

Allowing someone to ride in your car doesn't mean you no longer have authority over the car.

Therefore, God MUST work through His body on earth to accomplish anything.

Nope. God didn't need man to create the universe and he doesn't need man to accomplish his goals on the Earth. Or, as Jesus said, "If I tell them to be quiet, then the very rocks will cry out".

When all authority was given to Jesus after He rose from the dead, He immediately gave it to the church, when He said "GO..." Is this "narrow minded?"

Yeah, because he already had all authority before he died and he was telling them to "go" before he died, too. The disciples traveled extensively with Jesus.

For example, it is not His will that a mother of young children die of cancer and leave her family without her. Something like that would NEVER happen in heaven where God's will IS done.

"Not a single sparrow falls without permission of him who calls". If a mother dies of cancer, it's not because Satan somehow sneaked it past God. Perhaps it is not his will (e.g. if the mother lived an unhealthy lifestyle and the cancer was a consequence of that lifestyle) but he still allows it.

If you read Revelation carefully, you will find that at the 7th trumpet, God gets His planet back, with full authority.

Neither the Great Tribulation nor the Revelation in general are a plan for God to get his planet back. The whole of the Revelation is for the servants of God, to illustrate and help us understand the various spiritual lessons . That's what the opening line says.

 

[Endtime Survivors]

I think it is you that have misunderstood what pre-tribbers were saying.

Almost certainly I have, but that's pretty common when it comes to people trying to say two different things at once.

 

[Endtime Survivors]

It is a trick question. Was the Holy Spirit on the earth during the Old Testament? Yes, but in a limited way! ONLY the prophets and kings were anointed by the Holy Spirit. So on the day of Pentecost He was suddenly available to anoint ALL believers.

The Holy Spirit is like the wind; it blows where it wants.

God does not come right out and say this, but it would seem that if God finished up the old Covenant with the 70th week of Daniel, then the church age must end. I believe it ends with the rapture of the church.

I also believe it ends with the rapture of the church, after the Great Tribulation. Look again at the results the angel explained happening at the end of the 70 weeks.

Daniel 9:24
"Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy".

The end of the 70th week isn't the end of the "church age" or the Old Covenant. It ushers in the 1000 year reign of Christ. IF you argue that the end of the 70th week comes at the pre-trib rapture, then that means there is still a 7 year period (the Revelation mostly focuses on the second half of this final 7 year period) of problems. This interpretation isn't consistent with what the scriptures actually describe.

A post-trib interpretation is far more consistent.

Daniel 9:27 is a reference to the final week of the 70 weeks. Verse 26 says that Jesus was cut off, but not for himself, and it was Daniel's own people doing it! The Jews (God's chosen people at that time) had cut off their messiah and as a result God cut them off (just as he was dying Jesus said, "it is finished" while simultaneously the thick curtain separating the Holy of Holies was miraculously torn in two by God himself and the final week was put on hold.

God's people still have one final 7 year period of visible reign left on the Earth. Otherwise, everything would have ended 7 years after Jesus' death.

Verse 27 goes on to say, "He will confirm a covenant with many for 7 years". I believe this prophecy has a duel meaning. The prophecy specifically mentions messiah the prince, but it also talks about this person who causes the sacrifices to cease and the overspreading of abominations. Jesus is a prince but Satan is a prince, as well.

While the Jews make an agreement with the AC to rebuild their temple, Jesus will be organizing his followers into his temple (i.e. the 144k) for their final 7 years of reign on the Earth as God's people.

 

[iamlamad]

Allowing someone to ride in your car doesn't mean you no longer have authority over the car.

You seem a little lost here. Did you not read this?
Matthew 4:
8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;

9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.

(They were his to give)

2 Cor. 4
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Satan, the devil, is the god of this world today. How did he get the world? He usurped Adam's lease and Adam's authority and dominion. God had it first - He gave it to Adam - Adam lost it to Satan.

Nope. God didn't need man to create the universe and he doesn't need man to accomplish his goals on the Earth. Or, as Jesus said, "If I tell them to be quiet, then the very rocks will cry out".

We were not talking about creation. But He DOES need His body (the Body of Christ) on the earth.

Revelation 11:17
Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

Question: why did He have to take to Himself his great power? Who had it before? Answer: the church: Jesus have it to the church to go and make disciples.

Yeah, because he already had all authority before he died and he was telling them to "go" before he died, too. The disciples traveled extensively with Jesus.

Right: when He said "go" he was delegating His authority to the church.

"Not a single sparrow falls without permission of him who calls". If a mother dies of cancer, it's not because Satan somehow sneaked it past God. Perhaps it is not his will (e.g. if the mother lived an unhealthy lifestyle and the cancer was a consequence of that lifestyle) but he still allows it.

I have a question: if a terrible sinner approaches Jesus with sincerity and asks for salvation, is there EVER a case where Jesus would turn such a man away? In other words, is Jesus a respector of people: some He will save, but others He will not?

How could this be, when the bible tells us He died for all?

2 Corinthians 5:19
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

This seems to be all inclusive. Agreed? I am convinced if anyone sincerely approaches Jesus for salvation, no one ever gets turned away.
Yet, in Isaiah 53, we see that when Jesus took our iniquities, he also took our infirmities. When He took stripes on His back for one, He took them for all.

So just as it is not His will to turn anyone away for Salvation, it is not His will to turn anyone away from divine healing. In other words, it is ALWAYS God's will to save and it is ALWAYS His will to heal. However, He CANNOT save until someone comes by their own will and asks. And sometimes He cannot heal, because He cannot break His own word. It is His will always, but many times people prevent His perfect will from coming to pass. The reasons are too many to list here.

Neither the Great Tribulation nor the Revelation in general are a plan for God to get his planet back. The whole of the Revelation is for the servants of God, to illustrate and help us understand the various spiritual lessons . That's what the opening line says.

Yet, we read:
Revelation 11:15
And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

HOW will this come about? It is all about the scroll seen in the Father's right hand, and the fact that Jesus overcame death and became worthy to break the seals on the scroll. This scroll contained the steps for God to get His planet back.

Make no mistake here: if no one had ever been found worthy to break the seals on that scroll, then Satan would forever remain the god of this world.

 

[iamlamad]

The Holy Spirit is like the wind; it blows where it wants.



I also believe it ends with the rapture of the church, after the Great Tribulation. Look again at the results the angel explained happening at the end of the 70 weeks.

Daniel 9:24
"Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy".

The end of the 70th week isn't the end of the "church age" or the Old Covenant. It ushers in the 1000 year reign of Christ. IF you argue that the end of the 70th week comes at the pre-trib rapture, then that means there is still a 7 year period (the Revelation mostly focuses on the second half of this final 7 year period) of problems. This interpretation isn't consistent with what the scriptures actually describe.

A post-trib interpretation is far more consistent.

Daniel 9:27 is a reference to the final week of the 70 weeks. Verse 26 says that Jesus was cut off, but not for himself, and it was Daniel's own people doing it! The Jews (God's chosen people at that time) had cut off their messiah and as a result God cut them off (just as he was dying Jesus said, "it is finished" while simultaneously the thick curtain separating the Holy of Holies was miraculously torn in two by God himself and the final week was put on hold.

God's people still have one final 7 year period of visible reign left on the Earth. Otherwise, everything would have ended 7 years after Jesus' death.

Verse 27 goes on to say, "He will confirm a covenant with many for 7 years". I believe this prophecy has a duel meaning. The prophecy specifically mentions messiah the prince, but it also talks about this person who causes the sacrifices to cease and the overspreading of abominations. Jesus is a prince but Satan is a prince, as well.

While the Jews make an agreement with the AC to rebuild their temple, Jesus will be organizing his followers into his temple (i.e. the 144k) for their final 7 years of reign on the Earth as God's people.

I disagree. Rev. 12 is pointed only at the Jews and Hebrews and is not related to the church. We must rightly divide the Word of Truth.

 

[Endtime Survivors]

I disagree. Rev. 12 is pointed only at the Jews and Hebrews

And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. Revelation 12:17.

Judaism does not recognize Jesus as the messiah. Individuals who participate in Judaism may recognize Jesus as the messiah, but then they are no longer Jews but rather followers of Jesus.

 

[iamlamad]

And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. Revelation 12:17.

Judaism does not recognize Jesus as the messiah. Individuals who participate in Judaism may recognize Jesus as the messiah, but then they are no longer Jews but rather followers of Jesus.

AT this point I guess I pulled Rev. 12 right out of thin air. If I remember, I was thinking of Matthew 24, but you did not even mention that verse. Indeed, in Rev. 12, Satan goes after those that flee first, but after finding that impossible, he goes after the "remanant" of "her seed."
In my mind, "her seed" would be Christians, since we have Jewish roots: Jesus being a Jew. As I see "remnant" it means what is left after something. I think the something is the pretrib rapture. The main load went out before the 70th week begins, and here in chapter 12, at the midpoint, there is only a remnant left. Just my opinion.

 

[CGL1023]

This entry is void

 

[Sammy-San]

And do you know what a "devil" is? A devil is a slanderer and false accuser, which is exactly what Judas was.

Look at the word used in that verse (John 6:70):

1228 diábolos (from 1225 /diabállō, "to slander, accuse, defame") – properly, a slanderer; a false accuser; unjustly criticizing to hurt (malign) and condemn to sever a relationship.

A false accuser unjustly criticizing to sever a relationship. Isn't that exactly what Judas was? Yes, that's what Jesus called him. A "diabolos". Anybody who does what Judas did is a diabolos.

You see, you can't hope to understand scripture if you go with all the popular culture definitions of modern English words. You have to look at the original words used and their original meanings.

Did the word devil exist before the Bible, or it existed with a different meaning?

 

[iamlamad]

What do you think the great falling away will look like? Will we recognize it?
2 Thessalonians 2:3
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Sorry, but this is a very poor translation. Go back and look at earlier English translations: This is Tyndale:

Let no ma deceave you by eny meanes for the lorde commeth not excepte ther come a departynge fyrst and that that synfnll man be opened ye sonne of perdicion

The departing or gathering must come FIRST. Then and only then can the man of sin be revealed.

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

Sorry, but this is a very poor translation. Go back and look at earlier English translations: This is Tyndale:

Let no ma deceave you by eny meanes for the lorde commeth not excepte ther come a departynge fyrst and that that synfnll man be opened ye sonne of perdicion

The departing or gathering must come FIRST. Then and only then can the man of sin be revealed.

I like that!