What was Paul's Theology?

[A New Dawn]

I understood every teachings, parables, figures of speech of Jesus (in the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John) even before anyone explained it to me.

You should have been one of the 12, then, since the 12 couldn't understand what He was saying. I'm sure you were raised in a believing household where such teachings were commonplace, and not in a household where all the words Jesus spoke were infused with new meaning. But, of course, we all believe we understand Jesus' teachings perfectly, and there are many different interpretations of them, so you really are no different. Welcome to the club!

As for Paul's epistles, I had to read it over and over so many times before I realized it's hopeless, it's not the same as the Gospel of Jesus.

I was raised in a church that emphasized the red letters and de-emphasized Paul and all the other NT writers, and I have to say that I had just the opposite experience. Jesus' words were made much clearer by reading the rest of the NT and seeing how they were made applicable to real life. Paul's letters also brought greater understanding to Jesus' theology.

 

[timewerx]

No hair pulling at all. We have heard it all before. Your premises are wrong thus your conclusions are wrong. Don't need further teaching? Please read the following?

בטח אל־יהוה בכל־לבך ואל־בינתך אל־תשׁען׃

ישׁ דרך ישׁר לפני־אישׁ ואחריתה דרכי־מות׃

σπουδασον σεαυτον δοκιμον παραστησαι τω θεω εργατην ανεπαισχυντον ορθοτομουντα τον λογον της αληθειας

Are you saying that the Greek translation of 1 John 2:27 is different from the English translation?

Link of your reply with your quote of my post for everyone to see:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7815962-4/#post65393240

1 John 2:27 basically says "you don't need anyone to teach you if you have the Anointing"

What does it really say in Greek for you to say that I'm wrong?

If one has been thoroughly indoctrinated to reject Paul's writings, no wonder when they try to read Paul they consider his writings false, hopeless, etc.

I have accepted Paul's teachings for 20 years of my Christian life as Pentecostal and for a short time, Baptist denomination. I've only rejected his teachings for barely two years.

I begun Christianity being thoroughly indoctrinated that the Bible is infallible, that Paul is good and everything.... In fact, I used to believe that Paul is the greatest Christian missionary that ever lived!

I also have great fear that to believe otherwise is blasphemy and I will end up tortured eternally in the flames of hell...

No one told me that Paul is fake, nothing from outside information. I discovered it myself after conducting intense personal Bible study of the NT with no one else by myself.

How could you explain this? That an evil spirit came during these Bible studies and messed with my head?



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[ananda]

Are you saying that the Greek translation of 1 John 2:27 is different from the English translation? Link of your reply with your quote of my post for everyone to see: http://www.christianforums.com/t7815962-4/#post65393240 1 John 2:27 basically says "you don't need anyone to teach you if you have the Anointing" What does it really say in Greek for you to say that I'm wrong?

I have accepted Paul's teachings for 20 years of my Christian life as Pentecostal and for a short time, Baptist denomination. I've only rejected his teachings for barely two years. I begun Christianity being thoroughly indoctrinated that the Bible is infallible, that Paul is good and everything.... In fact, I used to believe that Paul is the greatest Christian missionary that ever lived! I also have great fear that to believe otherwise is blasphemy and I will end up tortured eternally in the flames of hell... No one told me that Paul is fake, nothing from outside information. I discovered it myself after conducting intense personal Bible study of the NT with no one else by myself. How could you explain this? That an evil spirit came during these Bible studies and messed with my head?

You are not allowed to dissent or conduct independent thinking. This is subversive. You are only allowed to listen to the collective interpretations of the anointed "dear leader(s)", and only these "leaders" interpretations matter. Resistance is futile.

 

[timewerx]

You should have been one of the 12, then, since the 12 couldn't understand what He was saying.

The reason why Jesus spoke in parables so those with "ears" will hear, not so that no one will "hear"

The disciples probably didn't get it but some from the audience apart from the 12 might have.

in a household where all the words Jesus spoke were infused with new meaning.

More like that. I grew in a household which believed the false "prosperity gospel" - Christians must be rich, poor people are ungodly. The context of scriptures are twisted into materialism - abundance in material things.

I was raised in a church that emphasized the red letters and de-emphasized Paul and all the other NT writers, and I have to say that I had just the opposite experience. Jesus' words were made much clearer by reading the rest of the NT and seeing how they were made applicable to real life. Paul's letters also brought greater understanding to Jesus' theology.

I studied NT against the context of reality - how the world works, how people think. It's like drawing up a battle plan or a strategy - lots of "what-if" scenarios.

I've been doing it for many years now... ...That's how long it took me to mentally test the teachings of Christianity. Only the teachings of Jesus were found to have no ill effects against everything and they were supplanted by consistentsupernatural manifestations.


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[A New Dawn]

More like that. I grew in a household which believed the false "prosperity gospel" - Christians must be rich, poor people are ungodly. The context of scriptures are twisted into materialism - abundance in material things.

Thank goodness you moved away from that false teaching.

I studied NT against the context of reality - how the world works, how people think. It's like drawing up a battle plan or a strategy - lots of "what-if" scenarios.

I've been doing it for many years now... ...That's how long it took me to mentally test the teachings of Christianity. Only the teachings of Jesus were found to have no ill effects against everything and they were supplanted by consistentsupernatural manifestations.

..

I"m not sure what your last statement means. What 'ill effects' do the rest of the Biblical teachings have? Jesus made some quite strong statements, as well as the angels that came to Mary to tell her about her son. Jesus didn't come to bring peace, but to bring a sword (or division (depending on which gospel you read)). So, just wondering what you think Jesus' words are supposed to do, or what His mission was.

 

[Der Alte]

Yup.

Some here demand "peer review" and "peer accolade, aka 'academic credentials'" as a requirement for authenticity. History demonstrates that such requirements are unfounded and are not a sign of reliablity.

Can you explain to me how the random links you posted prove anything specifically about the topic of this thread? For example the last one exposes how "open source" journals do not review articles which are submitted to them. IOW anyone can have anything published on such journals. This says absolutely nothing about the peer review conducted by colleges and universities. Do you have any real evidence? Or like the insurance commercial do you believe that everything on the internet is true?

Wrong! What we request is that people, who purport to translate/interpret scripture in such a way that it contradicts what the church has taught for 2000 years +/-, present some kind of evidence that they have the requisite knowledge and training to do such translation/interpretation.

 

[timewerx]

I"m not sure what your last statement means. What 'ill effects' do the rest of the Biblical teachings have? Jesus made some quite strong statements, as well as the angels that came to Mary to tell her about her son. Jesus didn't come to bring peace, but to bring a sword (or division (depending on which gospel you read)). So, just wondering what you think Jesus' words are supposed to do, or what His mission was.

The underlying reasons are quite complicated. It is rather simple if you just believed the teachings of Jesus only.


But I could try to summarize it the best I could (Establishing facts from top to bottom):


1. The world is evil (1 John 5:19, John 7:7, James 4:4, John 15:19, 1 John 2:15, Luke 6:20-26)

World facts:

- The gap between rich and poor is increasing, we are polluting our world at an ever faster rate - global warming, tons of garbage in our oceans (as exposed by the MH370 mystery)

- All our economic systems, either socialist or capitalist ultimately make profit from the labor of the poor and the weak - their cheap labor - and literally by working them to death in the gold/diamond mines, in miserable and highly toxic conditions in sweatshops, electronic goods, etc in Africa, China, Bangladesh, etc.

- We exploit the weak people - poor, uneducated/low skilled, desperate, citizens of poor countries for profits.

- We are not only bringing death to our planet through our insatiable collective greed but also showing tremendous dislike towards the poor and weak and favoritism to the rich. This is why the rich is getting richer and the poor getting poorer.



I have dealt with many people from the lowest working classes in many countries. Most of them weren't lazy, it's hard work! They simply did not have the right education and failed to meet the **unfair** standards of this world!

Many of them did not have the right education because they were very poor, not very "bright", and were from poor countries with miserable government support.

And here we are! We exploit their misfortunes!

What would Jesus have done? How does the Kingdom works? Matthew 20:1-16



The teachings of Jesus proved to be quite unfavorable to this **evil** system of the world.


- Deny yourself - Luke 9:23-24- if everyone denied themselves, living austere, living with as little as possible - would prove disastrous to the economy.

- Hate money, love God - Luke 16:13-15 If everyone hated money, nobody can be "bought", the rich will lose their power but the poor exalted.

- Hate your lives, die, if for the sake of Jesus - John 12:25, Matt 6:25 If nobody valued self - preservation, there would be no tyrants, no one with absolute power over many.



If our evil system is destroyed, it will bring healing to our land. Our planet will once again flourish as in the beginning. If no one goes back to our old, greedy and corrupt ways, everyone will have abundance provided by nature - which came from God! No one will be poor and no one will have power over the other.

If anyone will hate such life which coexists in perfect harmony with God's creations, consider this:

Luke 16:15
He said to them, “You are the ones who justify yourselves in the eyes of others, but God knows your hearts. What people value highly is detestable in God’s sight.


This brings into question the "non-Christ-ian" teachings such as that of King Solomon and Paul.

Solomon placed value in material wealth and directly contradicted many of the teachings of Jesus about material wealth.

Paul, tolerated the rich and encouraged being supportive of this **evil system which exploits the poor and destroys God's creations** telling that is under the authority of God, but how come, 1 John 5:19 says the opposite?

Paul also encouraged friendship with this world by being pleasing and honorable to all in contradiction of James 4:4, Luke 6:20-26, and Luke 16:13-15


Those are just the few things I could share in the time I am given.


This is a HUGE subject to discuss.

I would recommend you do the research yourself - find out how the world works in every detail and it's relation to God's Words.

Then you'll see the very distinct pattern in scriptures - The teachings of Jesus alone suddenly becomes crystal clear that it is solidly founded in facts - not by blind faith!

While Jesus saves the world, the world still remains our enemy (James 4:4, 1 John 2:15, John 7:7, 1 John 5:19, John 15:19)

In order to be victorious against an enemy, you must carefully study it to overcome its deceptions.


I hope this might answer your other questions as well.



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[wintermile]

Paul, tolerated the rich and encouraged being supportive of this **evil system which exploits the poor and destroys God's creations** telling that is under the authority of God, but how come, 1 John 5:19 says the opposite?

Paul also encouraged friendship with this world by being pleasing and honorable to all in contradiction of James 4:4, Luke 6:20-26, and Luke 16:13-15

I do not understand why you think Paul was not as compassionate as you are. Can you demonstrate how Paul tolerated the rich and encouraged others to be worldly?


10. God’s Saving Justice: Paul and Salvation | Peace Theology

I do not agree with all of Ted Grimsrud's assertions in his other works; however, I support his assertions in God's Saving Justice: Paul and Salvation. Grimsrud directs attention to a broken world and states Paul identifies the root of brokenness to acts of idolatry. A few quotes that provide you with a sample of Grimsrud's work will hopefully prompt you to read his article in full. Guided by the Holy Spirit, Paul began to learn and teach the true meaning of the Torah.

Like his predecessors, Paul understands salvation in terms of God’s merciful intention to bring healing to a broken world. Paul does not present salvation in terms of retributive justice or a mechanistic view of God’s holiness and honor.

So, precisely what problem does Paul believe humanity needs to be saved from? The term he uses most often in our passage is “sin.” From a careful reading of Romans 1:18–3:20, we may find at the heart of the sin problem for Paul the dynamic of idolatry, people giving ultimate loyalty to entities other than God. Paul describes two distinct kinds of idolatry here.

People make an “exchange.” They trade their humanity as God’s children for “images” that resemble created things. This trade leads to an exchange of justice for wrath leading to an exchange of justice for injustice, of life for death. This exchange need not happen. God has shown the world what is needed. “What can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them…, seen through the things God has made” (1:19-20). However, when human beings exchange “the glory of God” for images that resemble created things they lose their ability to discern God’s revelation. Paul echoes Psalm 115, where people become like the lifeless images they worship.

 

[timewerx]

I do not understand why you think Paul was not as compassionate as you are. Can you demonstrate how Paul tolerated the rich and encouraged others to be worldly?

1 Timothy 6:17-18

Paul did not tell the rich to give up their riches

But Jesus is very clear in Luke 9:57-58, you cannot be rich and follow Jesus at the same time.

The rich and those who are esteemed by everyone will not be saved (Luke 6:20-26, John 15:19, Luke 9:23-24, 1 John 2:15-16)

Yet, Paul preached that we must please and not offend anyone (1 Corinthians 10:32-33)

Jesus on the other hand offended people simply because of His teachings - the Truth offended people (John 6:61, Matthew 13:27)

Are we going to be same? YES (John 14:12). How else would we be hated? By doing as Jesus did, by exposing the works of evil (John 7:7)


Paul - do not offend (1 Corinthians 10:32-22)

Jesus - the Truth will offend (John 6:61-63, Matt 13:57)



Paul - Please everyone (1 Corinthians 10:32-33)

Jesus - woe to you if everyone speaks well of you (Luke 6:26)



Paul - Rich people should be philanthropists (1 Timothy 6:17-18)

Jesus - Don't be rich at all (Luke 9:57-58, Luke 6:24)




You cannot be pleasing to worldly people (John 15:19), unless you have become worldly yourself..

Thus, when Paul teaches that we must please and not offend everyone, then it only means one thing, that we have become worldly ourselves.



If you strive to be a friend of this world that is evil (1 John 5:19, John 15:18, James 4:4, John 7:7, 1 John 2:15-16)) then you have also tolerated evil yourself and hated God.

You may appear compassionate but that is outward only but underneath, your actions are contributing to the misery in this world if you carefully study how the world works even through secular information on world facts and statistics. Just like Pharisees who only clean the outside of their cups.




Notice also the many contradictions between the verses in Luke against the teachings of Paul in His epistles. Why would that happen if Luke is a loyal disciple of Paul?



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[Joseph474]

1 Timothy 6:17-18

Paul did not tell the rich to give up their riches

But Jesus is very clear in Luke 9:57-58, you cannot be rich and follow Jesus at the same time.

The rich and those who are esteemed by everyone will not be saved (Luke 6:20-26, John 15:19, Luke 9:23-24, 1 John 2:15-16)

Yet, Paul preached that we must please and not offend anyone (1 Corinthians 10:32-33)

Jesus on the other hand offended people simply because of His teachings - the Truth offended people (John 6:61, Matthew 13:27)

Are we going to be same? YES (John 14:12). How else would we be hated? By doing as Jesus did, by exposing the works of evil (John 7:7)


Paul - do not offend (1 Corinthians 10:32-22)

Jesus - the Truth will offend (John 6:61-63, Matt 13:57)



Paul - Please everyone (1 Corinthians 10:32-33)

Jesus - woe to you if everyone speaks well of you (Luke 6:26)



Paul - Rich people should be philanthropists (1 Timothy 6:17-18)

Jesus - Don't be rich at all (Luke 9:57-58, Luke 6:24)




You cannot be pleasing to worldly people (John 15:19), unless you have become worldly yourself..

Thus, when Paul teaches that we must please and not offend everyone, then it only means one thing, that we have become worldly ourselves.



If you strive to be a friend of this world that is evil (1 John 5:19, John 15:18, James 4:4, John 7:7, 1 John 2:15-16)) then you have also tolerated evil yourself and hated God.

You may appear compassionate but that is outward only but underneath, your actions are contributing to the misery in this world if you carefully study how the world works even through secular information on world facts and statistics. Just like Pharisees who only clean the outside of their cups.




Notice also the many contradictions between the verses in Luke against the teachings of Paul in His epistles. Why would that happen if Luke is a loyal disciple of Paul?



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Brother, I..not a worldly person. Please respond to me on 1-3 as soon as possible. Thank you very much!

 

[Norah63]

Paul's theology was the resurrection from death of Jesus Christ.
He paid the price to preach that.

Some didnt like it then, even less now.
Praise Jesus that now we have eternal life to gain.

 

[wintermile]

1 Timothy 6:17-18

Paul did not tell the rich to give up their riches

But Jesus is very clear in Luke 9:57-58, you cannot be rich and follow Jesus at the same time.

Regarding Luke 9:57-58, you may want to read it again. For example, Apostle Paul met Yeshua's criteria set out in Luke 9:57-58. This teaching is about not having any reservation for following Yeshua.

Regarding I Timothy 6:17-18, Apostle Paul directs Timothy to instruct the wealthier congregation to trust in YHWH. From my own reading of the Holy Bible, I read often that Father Jehovah had/has great joy rewarding His people with wealth and goods when they are obedient--but this is not the only way He rewards. Some are even blessed to give repeatedly. What I want to ask you is why do you think these wealthy believers will not obey Yeshua and the Holy Spirit by refraining from being haughty and trusting in wealth?

You have not demonstrated wrongdoing by Apostle Paul.

The rich and those who are esteemed by everyone will not be saved (Luke 6:20-26, John 15:19, Luke 9:23-24, 1 John 2:15-16)

Regarding Luke 6:20-26, first, this text supports how we are to develop the attitudes described and refrain from those the world defends. Second, are you aware there is a difference between those who trust in wealth and those who have wealth but trust in the Holy Spirit? Yeshua knows the hearts of the wealthy and Yeshua's wealthy flock meet the criteria set forth in the Sermon on the Mount.

You have not demonstrated wrongdoing by Apostle Paul.

Yet, Paul preached that we must please and not offend anyone (1 Corinthians 10:32-33)

Apostle Paul demonstrated how we are to give glory to Father Jehovah and he states a purpose as to why.

Jesus on the other hand offended people simply because of His teachings - the Truth offended people (John 6:61, Matthew 13:27)

And part of that truth was not to offend (to have self control); however, worldly systems defend "happiness at any cost" and, therefore, are offended by the truth.


Timewerx, what do you think about what Yeshua said about using Apostle Paul to do His work? What do you think of Holy Spirit guiding Apostle Paul to become aware of the truth of the Torah, as Grimsrud demonstrated?

 

[Joseph474]

Paul's theology was the resurrection from death of Jesus Christ.
He paid the price to preach that.

Some didnt like it then, even less now.
Praise Jesus that now we have eternal life to gain.

If Paul just preached this, I will leave the non-Pauline movement.
The problem is: what is his preaching on the law?

Paul was clearly a Pharisee after conversion(Acts 23) as well as a person that is responsible for antinomianism among Jewish Christians(Acts 21:21).

 

[Ruthie24]

I've never understood why some people dislike Paul so much as he preached the gospel of JC and to my knowledge his words do not disagree with the gospels. You cannot take out one part of the Bible and leave the rest. You have to take it all.

 

[drstevej]

I've never understood why some people dislike Paul so much as he preached the gospel of JC and to my knowledge his words do not disagree with the gospels. You cannot take out one part of the Bible and leave the rest. You have to take it all.

Agreed

 

[ananda]

I've never understood why some people dislike Paul so much as he preached the gospel of JC and to my knowledge his words do not disagree with the gospels.

Paul preached an anti-Law plus Messiah gospel, whereas Messiah, Peter, John, Jude, and James preached a pro-Law plus Messiah gospel.

You cannot take out one part of the Bible and leave the rest. You have to take it all.

Some of us would say that Paul's writings do not belong in the Bible in the first place So, what you wrote can be reworded: "You cannot add to the Bible ..."

 

[wintermile]

Timewerx, I hope you offer some feedback about Grimsrud' s take on Apostle Paul's teaching concerning how Empire uses injustice and violence to create brokenness and how Father Jehovah offers mercy and salvation.

 

[Joseph474]

Paul preached an anti-Law plus Messiah gospel, whereas Messiah, Peter, John, Jude, and James preached a pro-Law plus Messiah gospel.

Some of us would say that Paul's writings do not belong in the Bible in the first place So, what you wrote can be reworded: "You cannot add to the Bible ..."

I agree.

 

[Phantasman]

I've never understood why some people dislike Paul so much as he preached the gospel of JC and to my knowledge his words do not disagree with the gospels. You cannot take out one part of the Bible and leave the rest. You have to take it all.

2 Timothy
15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

You don't have to take out anything (as the catholics did when they chose the books of the Bible). You just have to see (spiritually) which is inspired as truth and which isn't.

"Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God."-Matthew

Who says the Bible is Gods words? Man or God?

The Bible teaches us HOW to hear the words of God, through "listening" to his son.


"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:"-John

 

[megaflies]

If we examine what was fulfilled by Christ then we have a better understanding of the relationship to him and the law. Adam and Eve were made in the image of God, in spirit as a living breathing soul. They partook of and recieved the curse of the flesh and were removed from the garden. Their lives and all whom followed were under physical law. This law was later established with Moses and carried forward to Christ.
The fulfillment that was accomplished by Christ was to put back what was undone. This was all that had occured since the beginning to Christs transformation. Woman was put back into man, the physical law was established into the spirit and fulfilled and the stage was set for the accomplishment of Gods will moving forward.