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What was Paul's Theology?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by All Souls, Apr 12, 2014.

  1. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Were John, the apostle's, disciples, Polycarp and Ignatius, and other early church fathers also hoodwinked?

    FIRST EPISTLE OF CLEMENT [A.D. 30-100.] Chapter 5

    Paul also obtained the reward of patient endurance, after being seven times thrown into captivity, compelled to flee, and stoned. After preaching both in the east and west, he gained the illustrious reputation due to his faith, having taught righteousness to the whole world, and come to the extreme limit of the west, and suffered martyrdom under the prefects. Thus was he removed from the world, and went into the holy place, having proved himself a striking example of patience.

    CHAPTER 47

    Take up the epistle of the blessed Apostle Paul. What did he write to you at the time when the Gospel first began to be preached? Truly, under the inspiration of the Spirit, he wrote to you concerning himself, and Cephas, and Apollos, because even then parties had been formed among you.

    EPISTLE OF MATHETES TO DIOGNETUS [A.D. 130.] CHAPTER 3
    EXPRESSIONS OF PERSONAL UNWORTHINESS

    For neither I, nor any other such one, can come up to the wisdom of the blessed and glorified Paul. He, when among you, accurately and steadfastly taught the word of truth in the presence of those who were then alive.

    EPISTLE OF POLYCARP TO THE PHILIPPIANS [A.D. 65-100-155.] CHAPTER 11 [Polycarp was a disciple of the apostle John]

    But who of us are ignorant of the judgment of the Lord? “Do we not know that the saints shall judge the world?” as Paul teaches. But I have neither seen nor heard of any such thing among you, in the midst of whom the blessed Paul labored, and who are commended in the beginning of his Epistle.

    EPISTLE OF IGNATIUS TO THE EPHESIANS [A.D. 30-107.] Chapter 11 [Ignatius was a disciple of the apostle John]

    May I attain to this, so that I may be found in the lot of the Christians of Ephesus, who have always had intercourse with the apostles by the power of Jesus Christ, with Paul, and John, and Timothy the most faithful.

    Chapter 12

    Ye are initiated into the mysteries of the Gospel with Paul, the holy, the martyred, the deservedly most happy, at whose feet may I be found, when I shall attain to God; who in all his Epistles makes mention of you in Christ Jesus.

    ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus - Christian Classics Ethereal Library
     
  2. ananda

    ananda Early Buddhist

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    Was Messiah wrong? Mt 16:6-12
     
  3. A New Dawn

    A New Dawn God is bigger than the boogeyman!

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    CFR of people who want to add to the foundations of the wall of the city. I think that this is nothing but a feeble attempt of trying to pin accusations on people who have made no such claim.
     
  4. timewerx

    timewerx the village i--o--t--

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    While Luke and Paul seemed to agree in plain sight, many of their teachings were not in agreement.

    When defending Paul, ironically, you can only use "outside" references like affirmations, relationships, signs, etc. "Paul is one of us" "I saw Jesus in the road to Damascus" "Peter defends Paul"

    You cannot use the "inside" - their teachings itself because they don't agree.


    It follows the Pharisee nature of Paul, justification before men - Luke 16:15; Clean only on the outside - in plain sight, but inside is full of deceit - his teachings contradicting Jesus.
     
  5. A New Dawn

    A New Dawn God is bigger than the boogeyman!

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    Except no one has given a clear example of where Paul has contradicted Jesus! I went through that one link and found problems with taking things out of context, making false accusations, etc., that showed that whoever wrote that page had absolutely no idea what they were talking about. It was like "I don't want to believe what Paul has to say so I will post anything that might remotely sound like it contradicts Jesus and hope nobody checks it out".
     
  6. timewerx

    timewerx the village i--o--t--

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    I agree, why the double standards.. ..Just like a Pharisee!

    If we can take Paul's accounts, why not Joseph Smith? The differences isn't enough to discredit either so why take Paul only?





    If it only takes that little to convince the Christians, oh boy, are we in grave trouble....

    So it's okay to see someone's name mentioned by someone reputable, despite their teachings are different?





    I am sick of the violence of this modern times, in recent years, I'm living in countries that were poor and have corrupt law enforcement and another country which had serious issues with human rights abuses.

    And living as low class worker, I'm well aware of the abuses being inflicted upon the poor. In these countries, the poor practically is defenseless, even the law is against them, those who are rich, in most cases could act with impunity against the poor.

    You guys probaby don't have a clue what I'm talking about if you're living in USA or Europe or Australia/NZ as a white Caucasian with a financially stable job and have your own house - even if cheap.



    What "new age violence" are you talking about?


    ..
     
  7. A New Dawn

    A New Dawn God is bigger than the boogeyman!

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    Paul's experience was a shared experience (others saw the light and heard a voice) and it was dramatically life-changing, Joseph Smith's alleged experience was only experienced by him, and it did not seem to be life-changing. No one seemed to even know that he had that vision till 20 years later.

    I accept Paul's experience because God moved in my life in almost the exact way, and it changed my life completely!
     
  8. wintermile

    wintermile Bioconservative

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    Is it important to you to hold oppressors accountable or to oppress?

    You briefly mentioned having an awareness of worldy systems in another post. Are you aware of Empire, the Transnational Capitalist Class (TCC)? I ask, because Paul's theology has nothing to do with injustice, violence and brokenness, not in the past and not currently today. In fact, Paul's theology was about the truth of Torah, which any believer can recognize when evaluating brokenness and the Gospel. When you're busting chomps, if you do indeed hold oppressors accountable, stop acting out precariously: Paul's theology was full of compassion because he was faithful to Yeshua. Stop blaming Paul.

    I realize you are randomly addressing a group of people, but I will offer some feedback. I do not consider myself with the guys. I oppose SSM, polygamy and transhumanism because each is a corruption of His image. Some here do not oppose them. I attend a church that is patterned after the Early Church.

    I am aware of what you are talking about. I am aware of worldly conflicts. I know about some who deal with oppressors and some who shield them. Everyday I recall the violence that happens to others--that has happened to me. My heart is with the Good Shepherd who opposes all violence.

    Also, in the US there is the stench of corruption in many facets of society. Sometimes a real republican will stand up and say, " No more subsidies for the rich." (There are 240 megadeals, within the $ 110 billion total, worth taxpayer gold- $64 billion.)

    Getting back around to human rights violations, I am thankful for individuals in secular organizations who ethically raise the bar to superior standards.

    Credit due on your part would be given, had you demonstrated an awareness that many at CF, regardless of their backgrounds, oppose oppression. The Inuit have over 200 words for snow, and because snow seems so white, I know I am worth a mention of descriptive appreciation--when I ask Him is to set the captives free.


    New Age is a religion. You are a smart individual, you know this.
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2014
  9. timewerx

    timewerx the village i--o--t--

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    I'll reply to your other post here, I'll copy and paste since it's on topic anyway:





    If you read the whole Matthew 15:1-11, Jesus is speaking about food that is handled by literally, dirty hands - food that could be contaminated with bacteria, disease, etc.

    Perhaps, you might quote Luke 10:7 but if you look at the cross references across the other books of the Gospel, you'll find Luke's perspective agrees with Paul on the subject and unique Between Matthew and Mark:

    Matthew 10:10 no bag for the journey or extra shirt or sandals or a staff, for the worker is worth his keep.

    See there Luke quoting "workers deserve their wages and eat anything..." clearly Paulian (Luke 10:7). While nothing of that sort were said in related verses cross-referenced in Matthew and Mark.




    But it did not end there, the responsibility is passed down to those who are willing to believe.

    John 14:12
    Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.



    It could go both ways so why try to give an underlying message of Paul that is not contradictory to the teachings of Jesus?

    If a man teaches something that consistently appears contradictory to the teaching of another even in just plainsight, perhaps, it's actually contradictory and we should not waste anymore time looking for alternative meanings of the other so they would agree?




    Ironically, Paul contradicted himself in that case, read Romans 10:10, which also contradicted Matthew 7:22-23.




    True, I wouldn't say most, just many, but many simply doesn't align with the teachings of Jesus and it's these contradictory teachings that most follow and that's why it's a big problem.

    If most Christians followed the teachings of Paul that align with the teachings of Christ there very little to no problem isn't it? Sadly, that is not the case.



    Jesus never asked anyone to support Him, not even say that people should give to His workers. Any support He got from people was purely out of people's appreciation of them.




    The false gospel has its martyrs too, so even those who are quite Godly can be deceived.

    Don't be so easily deceived by what you see on the outside, look at the message. If their message contradict, then I don't care even if both of them are tortured for doing something apparently good, one of them is certainly a false teacher.








    If evil is allowed or even used by God, do you think God intended us to tolerate or even support it?


    ...
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2014
  10. timewerx

    timewerx the village i--o--t--

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    You mean the global elite of Capitalism?

    They are one of the most accountable for all the misery in this world and the slow death of the harmony God created since the beginning. Ironically, the main subject of my research is not about them - they are far too obvious and too easy to see to be missed.

    The main subject of my research is that if an average person like you and me can also be accountable for all these misery.....


    ....And the answer is yes. If we all do what Jesus says in the Gospels, our system would crumble to pieces. I'm not talking about a violent revolution but simply to live ascetic lives to follow Jesus (Luke 9:57-58, John 14:12) which will return the life we have stolen from our planet from generations upon generation of greedy and selfish existence.

    If anyone loves God with all of their hearts, etc etc, they will follow the one He has sent (John 14:12, Luke 9:57-58) no matter how far and extreme it would take them.

    But most people decided instead to support the evil system in place in our world today for the fear of not having a good life in this evil system.








    As I've said, the Torah is of Judaism. If you promote Torah, then you should take the whole which includes the Babylonian Talmud. Have you read the Babylonian Talmud to decide for yourself if it's good?


    I don't follow the Torah by itself, it's not part of Christianity. If some parts of the Torah agrees with the Gospel, then that's fine, but many obviously don't. It's another set of contradictions for another thread perhaps.




    Paul did not command the rich to live ascetically which would relieve the rich of their big accountability for the evil in this world. Paul instead tolerated their condition of being wealthy if they can be philanthropists (in a nutshell).

    No rich philanthropist will enter Heaven, they must become poor first.

    The answer to the Parable of the Poor Widow is in fact, explained by how money is circulated in our world - it is still an evil thing to get rich just so you can help the poor... ...It's a self - defeating belief if you just know where money ultimately comes from. You're also setting a very wrong example.

    That's why the poor widow gave more than the rich dudes... ...this is true not only symbolically and in setting a good example, but also mathematically.


    Just look how profits are generated from its ultimate source and you'll find that I'm not lying to you. You will inevitably find out that it's coming from the least in this world - profits generated from their cheap labor through discrimination by their education, weakness, disability, citizenship.

    The Kingdom of God does not profit from discrimination - see Parable of the Workers in the Vineyard. It compensates the same even to those who can render less work - in real life context - the weak, the less educated, the less fortunate....


    Since Paul tolerated the rich to remain in their wealth, he had thus, tolerated evil. Jesus in fact, gave the opposite commands to getting rich.




    That's good for you, what is SSM?

    I don't attend a church because I simply couldn't find one that is not worldly and especially because I'm in the Middle East under Islamic Sharia Law. There are a few here but I don't agree with their statement of faith. I minister to people on my own



    I'll let God deal with the oppressors, not me. My business here is only to expose their evil as Jesus did in John 7:7 and as believers of Jesus, we must do His works (John 14;12).




    You're not alone! Let's not go into details here.





    I have lived in the US for several months. Apart from the news, it's a generally easy life out there.

    But yes, I still keep track of the news. With all these expenditures, how come they don't have that money for the homeless?



    I believe some of them will go to Heaven - Parable of the Sheep and Goats. Believing in Jesus has more to do with doing His works of mercy than being religious (John 14:12) "I desire mercy, not sacrifice"



    We are to be a light in this world, that means a very distinct separation from darkness. The dark hates the light (John 15:19)

    Most people will hate you if you tell them where money ultimately comes from.





    Yes, I just never heard New Age and the word "violence" together. If they promote the system of this world, then that's probably right!
     
  11. A New Dawn

    A New Dawn God is bigger than the boogeyman!

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    It is only your assumption that Jesus was referring to germs and diseases. I believe that the application was broad enough to cover dirty hands and meat sacrificed to idols. Jesus was worried about what was in a person's heart, not what they ate. Another indication that the law doesn't save.

    Responsibility, yes. Requirement, no. And Paul taught that faith and works were the flip sides of the coin of salvation (Ephesians 2). You can't have one without the other. If we were still required to follow the law, then there would have been no need for Jesus' sacrifice. We would be no different from the Jews in Hebrews 10 that turned our back on Christ and went back to the ways of the law.

    It couldn't go both ways. There is nothing in that verse that suggests that Paul said the pharisees were righteous. Here is the text (the miniscule portion in blue was the portion that the article addressed).

    IF you read the whole thing in context, you will see that Paul is warning about the legalism of the pharisees. Paul saying, in Acts 26, "I conformed to the strictest sect of our religion, living as a Pharisee", that, as a pharisee, he was a legalist. But the reason I have posted more of the passage than was discussed in the article is because of the fact that it was made to make it look like he said something he didn't say. He did say, yes, that is what I believed as a pharisee, but now (in verse 7) he goes on to say that he no longer believes any of that stuff he previously believed. He counts it all as loss for Christ. Don't you even read the surrounding verses? Oh, yes, of course you do. When it is convenient for you.

    Ironically, Paul doesn't contradict himself. Why don't you try this? Go to the Blue Letter Bible site and search for "repentance" and "obedience" and see for yourself how much Paul talks about repentance and obedience. As I said, this is all plain nonsense.

    I haven't seen anything that Paul teaches that contradicts what Jesus taught, and nothing in this discussion (especially when the texts are read in context) shows otherwise.

    None of the pastors that serve in our church ask anyone to support them, either. People do so because they recognize the value of a full-time minister and voluntarily give of their surplus.

    I was brought out of a church (by the Lord) who had a false martyr. Joseph Smith. And it was through reading the whole Bible (not the parts sanctioned by the church, or the parts changed by JS) that I found, not just peace and love, but also joy and freedom in Christ. It is the most awesome knowledge and feeling!

    Support it? No. Endure it? Yes. I find no such evil in Paul, though. His joy for the Lord is awesome, and all should be infected by it!
     
  12. TorahMan

    TorahMan Junior Member

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    (sorry dual post)
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2014
  13. Norah63

    Norah63 Newbie

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    So this entire non- (whoever) fill in the latest name, is because some posters are upset with the social order of our world? Well it was the same in the early church. They wanted Jesus to set up a social kingdom, overthrow the romans. The truth of the need of our savior Jesus Christ, the son of God, to pay the price for fallen man, that is the real issue. Imo.
    Paul preached that Jesus paid the price and was raised from the dead to open the door to eternal life.
    Any man or woman can accept as much from truth as they will, from Paul or anyone.
    How would any of us fare as we share the love and mercy of our Lord Jesus?
    This must be the timespoken of when every man walks in his own way.
    Each preaches what they most need to hear. Building ourselves up in our most holy faith.
    An earlier poster said how Paul gave some very practical help for the church. Some recieve it gladly,
    others reject it in favor of some other mans words they can recieve better.
    Jesus sees our hearts, if our heart doesnt condem us then neither does he.
    May there be peace in all the church.
     
  14. timewerx

    timewerx the village i--o--t--

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    Responsibility, yes:

    John 3:16 --> John 14:12

    Salvation requires believing in Jesus, and believers will do the works of Jesus.

    You cannot be a believer if you do not do the works of Jesus. And non believers will not be saved.

    The teaching of Paul requires belief in the name of Jesus for salvation, rather than the works - this means if someone died never hearing the name of Jesus which is very possible, especially in remote tribes, they will automatically go to hell.

    I think that's far too much unfair. On the other hand, you don't have to know the name of Jesus in order to do His works (errand of mercy). And if you do His works, you already believed even if you don't know His name - this gives a fair chance of salvation to everyone, although more difficult, it's fair.



    Then your church must be unique.

    Every Christian church I've been to in different countries have always, at one point, maybe twice or thrice a year have preached about giving tithes to support the church.




    There were similarities between JS and Paul's conversion, so why is JS a false prophet? Is it because the message he preached is different?




    ..
     
  15. timewerx

    timewerx the village i--o--t--

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    Our own hearts cannot be trustworthy always.

    Jeremiah 17:9
    The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?
     
  16. Phantasman

    Phantasman Newbie

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    OT misrepresentation. Jeremiah didn't know Christ, who cures hearts.

    I don't seek Gospel truth in the OT for that reason.

    Before Christ came, there was no bread in the world, just as Paradise, the place were Adam was, had many trees to nourish the animals but no wheat to sustain man. Man used to feed like the animals, but when Christ came, the perfect man, he brought bread from heaven in order that man might be nourished with the food of man. The rulers thought that it was by their own power and will that they were doing what they did, but the Holy Spirit in secret was accomplishing everything through them as it wished. Truth, which existed since the beginning, is sown everywhere. And many see it being sown, but few are they who see it being reaped. -Philip

    I see more truth in Philip than Jeremiah.
     
  17. drstevej

    drstevej Light Attracts Bugs Staff Member Chaplain Supporter

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    I see more truth in Peanuts than Philip.

    So were none saved in the OT? They didn't have Philip.

    Jesus thought highly of the OT.

    John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
     
  18. A New Dawn

    A New Dawn God is bigger than the boogeyman!

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    Calling for records to support this nasty concept. Show me who, including Paul, ever said the "name" of Jesus is what you need to accept rather than His sacrifice. You are making completely unfounded accusations.

    I doubt that it is.

    I don't recall, in my 40 years of awareness in church, any such preaching. There was a time when I was young when the church I attended wanted to add a wing, and we had a fundraiser for that, but not for general support of the church.

    There are no similarities between JS's purported vision and Paul's conversion. Paul's conversion was to Christ, JS wasn't converted to anything.
     
  19. timewerx

    timewerx the village i--o--t--

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    Romans 10:13-15

    13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”[f]
    14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15 And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”[g]


    But But But:

    - Even false teachers can call on the name of Jesus, will they saved?


    - Many false preachers out there in churches - Jesus warned us there will be many false teachers



    How come what Paul teaches does not hold true in real life?


    I'm not your enemy here, I especially appreciate the fact that you never misquote my posts and actually bothered to read them - a quality rarely found in my opponents in my beliefs regarding Paul.:thumbsup:


    ..
     
  20. A New Dawn

    A New Dawn God is bigger than the boogeyman!

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    I believe you are making that into something it isn't, and doing so to provide a point of conflict.

    You have quoted parts of two different thoughts. Verse 13 is the tail end of this passage "For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.", and verse 14, et al, is the beginning of a passage that ends with "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." Again, it pays to understand the context. Pulling isolated verses out of their context is not a way to discuss anything, especially when everyone else has access to the context.
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2014
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