What to do with unapologetic "Cafeteria Catholics?"

[Miss Shelby]

I don't see how we can "work towards a resolve" when there are two main points separating the Catholic Church from Protestants.
One is faith and works vs faith alone. Until they admit they are wrong and use a faulty bible, we will never agree.
Two is the power of the Pope to set doctrine for the Church. (Whatever you bind on Earth will be bound in heaven, whatever you loosen on Earth will be loosened in heaven.)
I for one, don't want the Catholic Church to compromise on these in an effort to find common ground.
Then there is the acceptance of homosexuality as a "normal" lifestyle, or female priests. What about abortion? A lot of protestant churches do not defend the sancity of human life like the Catholic Church does.
No. There is no need for us to compromise our faith just to reach an agreement with others.

Actually, I was alluding to finding the protestants who agree with the Church on those issues that you mentioned, and establishing relationships with them. I am not talking about compromising Catholic doctrine. I am not suggesting Protestants be able to receive communion or anything along those lines, unless they convert.

However, there are many of them out there who we alientate due to theological differnces, insteading of joining with them where we agree on morality. If you don't believe me, check out GT. Most of squabbling is about whether or not Catholics worship Mary, but I bet you the majority of Christians in that forum are against abortion being legal and ordination of gay bishops.

I am a life long Catholic, but was a 'cafeteria' Catholic for most of it. Want to know who, in no small part, helped me see the truth of Catholicism? Converts, former protestants.

Relationships/fellowship is what I mean, with like minded Christians.

I apologize if I was unclear.

 

[NiteClerk]

Fair enough. Rome can set doctrine. Am I under obligation to agree with or believe said doctorine.

In my opinion, you should obey the doctrine while you try to pray for and work towards a belief in it.

If I believe that a particular piece of doctrine is either unfounded or outright incorrect, am I no longer Catholic?

That's something for you to decide. But if you find more "fault" with doctrine than you agree with, either you or the Pope is wrong. And my money is on the Pope being correct. Always.

If I disagree with certain doctrines, am I to abstain from the Eucharist?

If you are commiting sin, not praying for yourself to change or not going to confession, then yes, abstain from the Eucharist. I know that I have abstained when I haven't been able to make confession.

I don't speak out against the teachings that I personally don't believe, but I am no longer actively trying to make myself believe what I don't believe. What should I do? I could talk to my Priest, but I have a feeling that he would tell me to "just believe what you can and don't sweat the small stuff".

Work and pray to resolve the differences. But don't expect the Church to change to fit you. You should work to change to fit the Church.

I am quite active in my Parish and part of me suspects that our Priest would likely tell me whatever I wanted to hear to get me to stay. This is the same Priest who told my wife and I that cohabitation before marriage was for the most part okay and not sinful as we did it out of love - though I guess that's a separate issue.

That depends on what the cohabitation involved. No Priest should condone pre-martial sex.

I'm really not trying to sound like an uber-Catholic. But the Church is led by a person who has a direct link to the orders that Jesus gave St. Peter. The way that I view the heirarchy of the Church is: God -> Pope -> Cardinals -> Bishops -> Priests -> us. And quite frankly, as long as I am Catholic, I will do my best to obey, accept, and believe the dogma that the Pope hands down to us. So even if I have problems with the belief of some things, I will obey and accept.

Pax;

Bob

 

[helenofbritain]

Aren't Indugences the remitting of temporal suffering due to sin? Isn't temporal suffering exactly what i need to be rid of that sin? Temporal suffering is what brought me to Christ. God bless temporal suffering. I dont want any trip to a shrine or the right prayer to rid me of my God given temporal suffering. It is the medicine for bad habits.

I address each question / statement in a separate paragraph:

Yes.

Not necessarily. You could repent and do penance for previous sins a lot a lot a lot a lot a lot alot a lot while you were still alive, and live a saintly life after that... but more than likely yes

Christ is what (Who) brought you to God.

I doubt that God would bless temporal suffering (from the point of view us us suffering. He doesn't want us to suffer.) But I'm sure He does bless it from the point of view of it cleaning up our souls so that we can be with Him forever in Heaven.

Yeah, I understand that thought. I've been there myself - I used to seen plenary indulgences (go to Heaven, go directly to Heaven. Do not pass purgatory, do not collect $200 - or so I though at the time) as a bit of a cop out - don't I *need* that suffering? - but then I looked into them a bit more. Correctly completed plenary indulgences (requiring confession, Mass, certain prayers/charitable works, freedom from attachment to sin [even venial] - is that it?) will clear you slate (of accrued temporal suffering for already confessed sins) up to that point. That's a tricky list to complete - being unattached to sin most of all. They don't help you with sins you haven't comitted yet. So unless you get really lucky and just finish all the conditions and then get hit by a bus as you leave the Church, you will still suffer some temporal punishment. And while I don't know, I have a feeling that one day of temporal punishment will be more than enough for us to start wishing we'd been closer to God while we were still alive. So it all catches up with us. Getting a plenary indulgence for someone you know who has died (or someone you don't know) has similar implications - they are not getting a 'free' ride. From the moment of their death until you helped them out they would have been in purgatory. And indulgences of "x days remission of time in purgatory" aren't so terrible either. Who wouldn't want to enjoy the fullness of Heaven as soon as they could? Don't you take shortcuts to get to places more quickly now? Why would you want to take the slow route home after you died?

Medicine (something that treats the symptoms) for bad habbits (sins) is only good while you are alive. The medicine we all need is frequent Confession and Eucharist. Once we are dead we can't sin any more. So we don't need medicine - we need a cure! (something that makes us 100% well again) Purgatory is the cure. Did I explain that well enough to be understandable? (It all makes sense in my head....)


I think we need to look at the whole idea of purgatory, indulgences and "offering things up". I'll give them a short poke here, but it really should be on another thread, probably...

Indulgences are not a "free ticket". To get one there are a number of "hard" or "important" things that need to be done. Like:
* Making a good confession. (It brings you closer to God, and cleans up your soul. How is that a bad thing?)
* Going to Mass, and offering that Mass for your stated intention - in this case to earn an indulgence. (Bringing you closer to God. Also a good thing.)
* Praying certain prayers. (A good thing!)

It's not like we can just wave a magic wand and say "Accio Heaven!" (sorry, couldn't help the Potter reference).

Did you know that even without indulgences you can earn yourself - or someone else - time out of purgatory? I often offer a decade of my rosary for the Holy Souls in purgatory. Offering things up in a cheerful spirit helps to cancel out our purgatory debt. I hate doing the washing up, but if I can be cheerful about it and do it well, despite the fact I don't want to do it, I believe that God will see it, and "my Father in Heaven, Who sees all that is done in secret, will reward [me]". Childbirth is a great one for time-out-of-purgatory IMHO, but of course only applies to 50%of the population

Anyway, what I've spent a long time trying to say is that getting indulgences takes work - and while earning them is certainly more fun than spending time in purgatory - it's not exactly an "easy" way out.

As-salaam alaikum!

 

[gentlestorm]

I address each question / statement in a separate paragraph:

Yes.

Not necessarily. You could repent and do penance for previous sins a lot a lot a lot a lot a lot alot a lot while you were still alive, and live a saintly life after that... but more than likely yes

Christ is what (Who) brought you to God.

I doubt that God would bless temporal suffering (from the point of view us us suffering. He doesn't want us to suffer.) But I'm sure He does bless it from the point of view of it cleaning up our souls so that we can be with Him forever in Heaven.

Yeah, I understand that thought. I've been there myself - I used to seen plenary indulgences (go to Heaven, go directly to Heaven. Do not pass purgatory, do not collect $200 - or so I though at the time) as a bit of a cop out - don't I *need* that suffering? - but then I looked into them a bit more. Correctly completed plenary indulgences (requiring confession, Mass, certain prayers/charitable works, freedom from attachment to sin [even venial] - is that it?) will clear you slate (of accrued temporal suffering for already confessed sins) up to that point. That's a tricky list to complete - being unattached to sin most of all. They don't help you with sins you haven't comitted yet. So unless you get really lucky and just finish all the conditions and then get hit by a bus as you leave the Church, you will still suffer some temporal punishment. And while I don't know, I have a feeling that one day of temporal punishment will be more than enough for us to start wishing we'd been closer to God while we were still alive. So it all catches up with us. Getting a plenary indulgence for someone you know who has died (or someone you don't know) has similar implications - they are not getting a 'free' ride. From the moment of their death until you helped them out they would have been in purgatory. And indulgences of "x days remission of time in purgatory" aren't so terrible either. Who wouldn't want to enjoy the fullness of Heaven as soon as they could? Don't you take shortcuts to get to places more quickly now? Why would you want to take the slow route home after you died?

Medicine (something that treats the symptoms) for bad habbits (sins) is only good while you are alive. The medicine we all need is frequent Confession and Eucharist. Once we are dead we can't sin any more. So we don't need medicine - we need a cure! (something that makes us 100% well again) Purgatory is the cure. Did I explain that well enough to be understandable? (It all makes sense in my head....)


I think we need to look at the whole idea of purgatory, indulgences and "offering things up". I'll give them a short poke here, but it really should be on another thread, probably...

Indulgences are not a "free ticket". To get one there are a number of "hard" or "important" things that need to be done. Like:
* Making a good confession. (It brings you closer to God, and cleans up your soul. How is that a bad thing?)
* Going to Mass, and offering that Mass for your stated intention - in this case to earn an indulgence. (Bringing you closer to God. Also a good thing.)
* Praying certain prayers. (A good thing!)

It's not like we can just wave a magic wand and say "Accio Heaven!" (sorry, couldn't help the Potter reference).

Did you know that even without indulgences you can earn yourself - or someone else - time out of purgatory? I often offer a decade of my rosary for the Holy Souls in purgatory. Offering things up in a cheerful spirit helps to cancel out our purgatory debt. I hate doing the washing up, but if I can be cheerful about it and do it well, despite the fact I don't want to do it, I believe that God will see it, and "my Father in Heaven, Who sees all that is done in secret, will reward [me]". Childbirth is a great one for time-out-of-purgatory IMHO, but of course only applies to 50%of the population

Anyway, what I've spent a long time trying to say is that getting indulgences takes work - and while earning them is certainly more fun than spending time in purgatory - it's not exactly an "easy" way out.

As-salaam alaikum!

It's very kind of you to spell it out for me. I will read it and try to better understand it. Mostly impressive is the loving Spirit that cared enough to write it.
It's souls like you who have always tipped the scales in favor of sticking around.

 

[Myfanwy]

What to do with unapologetic "Cafeteria Catholics?

What do you do with Cafetria Catholics ?
What do you do with Cafetria Catholics ?
What do you do with Cafetria Catholics earily in the morning ?

Shave there chest with a rusty razor
Shave there chest with a rusty razor
Shave there chest with a rusty razor early in the morning !

Here are some more verses:

Pierce their contraceptives with a needle
Pierce their contraceptives with a needle
Pierce their contraceptives with a needle
Early in the morning!

Give them a bell and an unclean sign
Give them a bell and an unclean sign
Give them a bell and an unclean sign
Early in the morning!

Lock them up and try to convert them
Lock them up and try to convert them
Lock them up and try to convert them
Early in the morning!

Buy them a subscription to 'Catholic Family'
Buy them a subscription to 'Catholic Family'
Buy them a subscription to 'Catholic Family'
Early in the morning!

Buy them the Catechism for their birthday
Buy them the Catechism for their birthday
Buy them the Catechism for their birthday
Early in the morning!

Get them a grave plot when they're 20
Get them a grave plot when they're 20
Get them a grave plot when they're 20
Early in the morning!

 

[helenofbritain]

It seems nobody is interested in telling me in clear language weather they feel I should abstain from the Eucharist or not. PMs would be appreciated if you don't want to say in here.

It is not for us to say. Only you know what you know in your heart. But I can give you some pointers to help you decide for yourself...

1. Pray really really really really really hard for God to show you "the truth". Pray also that you will be open to accepting "the truth", whatever it may be.

2. Inform yourself of what the Catholic Church teaches. Get a catechism. This is of course rather a big read. I highly recommend the newly published Compendium of the C of the CC (one of the last tasks completed by Pope Benedict when he was still Cardinal Ratzinger). It follows a question-and-answer format, squashes all the info down to its most salient points, and then provides paragraph references to the complete CCC.

3. Pray some more.

4. Once you are informed, examine your consience. Having read exactly what the Church teaches about x, and why, do you still completely disagree with it and think it is wrong? (If the answer is yes, then *I* would recommend abstaining from Communion). If you disagree becuase you can't comprehend x, I would find someone who can explain it to you adequately. If you disagree but are willing to admit that there might be some merit in x, then things are looking up If you find you don't, on reflection, actually disagree at all anymore, then woohoo! that's great.

5. Pray some more.

6. If you are still having trouble, find someone you can talk to. This might be your local priest. It might be a local Redemptorist, Opus Dei or Dominican priest (around here they are all top notch), someone from a good theological college or someone in your parish who you can just tell is a beacon of light. Explain your issues thoroughly, and don't expect them to come up with a silver bullet. Coming to terms with what the Church teaches, or deciding you can't come to terms with what the Church teaches is going to be a long and involved process, most likely. You never know - you might be lucky and be given a 'road to Damascus moment'.

7. Pray some more.

8. While you are trying to figure out exactly what you think about things, it might be wise to abstain from the Eucharist. Until you know whether you are profaning the Body and Blood of the Lord or not, it would be wise to play it safe There's no point in offending God more than you have to, simply because you couldn't choose to stay in your pew 'til you were sure what you were on about.

9. If you know you are in a state of Mortal Sin - get to confession ASAP!!!

10. Pray some more.

Hope this helps. God bless you.

As-salaam-alaikum

 

[NiteClerk]

Actually, I was alluding to finding the protestants who agree with the Church on those issues that you mentioned, and establishing relationships with them. I am not talking about compromising Catholic doctrine. I am not suggesting Protestants be able to receive communion or anything along those lines, unless they convert. .....

Okay. But the Catholic Church does tries to form alliances whereever possible with other religions. I'm just very sensitive to the thought of compromising our Church in the interest of gaining members. Sorry if I missed the point of your post.

Bob

 

[MikeK]

4. Once you are informed, examine your consience. Having read exactly what the Church teaches about x, and why, do you still completely disagree with it and think it is wrong? (If the answer is yes, then *I* would recommend abstaining from Communion). If you disagree becuase you can't comprehend x, I would find someone who can explain it to you adequately. If you disagree but are willing to admit that there might be some merit in x, then things are looking up If you find you don't, on reflection, actually disagree at all anymore, then woohoo! that's great.

5. Pray some more.

6. If you are still having trouble, find someone you can talk to. This might be your local priest. It might be a local Redemptorist, Opus Dei or Dominican priest (around here they are all top notch), someone from a good theological college or someone in your parish who you can just tell is a beacon of light. Explain your issues thoroughly, and don't expect them to come up with a silver bullet. Coming to terms with what the Church teaches, or deciding you can't come to terms with what the Church teaches is going to be a long and involved process, most likely. You never know - you might be lucky and be given a 'road to Damascus moment'.

Here is some truly helpful advice from someone who clearly cares, and I really appreciate it. I do have a catechism and understand the Church's teachings for the most part, I just happen to either disagree with (the case againct BC) or not subscribe to (immaculate conception, etc) some of them. My Priest doesn't seem to think any of this is a big deal, but he doesn't seem to think anything is a big deal when you talk to him about various issues. For instance, while he didn't condone pre-marital sex for my wife and I per se, he certainly didn't give the impression that he thought it was a grave matter.

 

[IgnatiusOfAntioch]

So we shouldn't worry about the salvation of others now? That's new!

You need to read the post I was responding to; otherwise you'll misunderstand it. The response doesn't exist in a vacuum.

 

[Teshi]

I don't personally see how I or anyone else is supposed to determine who is "unrepentant."

I've started asking myself, when I get all het up about an issue or action, why I'm getting het up. Not just "why do I disagree with this" but "why am I angry about this." And then, asking myself whether my anger is a productive anger, or a destructive anger.

I think that lashing out someone is usually destructive.

Effective, lasting correction comes only from a loving place.

 

[WarriorAngel]

I am a cafeteria Catholic. I don't want to be. There are some things I can't, in all honesty, sign the check to- God knows i've tried. I just can not believe in indulgences, or Immaculate C. or much of the scholastic approach to theology or in much of the miracles-sensationalism. (Please don't make this a 'lets try and teach him about these things thread') I know too much about these things. I do believe in the Eucharist and in living a holy life.
The problem is our pope has said you either believe it all or get out.
This doesn't leave a heck of a lot of choice.
I talked with the Orthodox, as I am interested in what I tthought was a simpler way, about the filioque and they are like talking to a brick wall.
I am totally ready to throw in the towel on institutional Christianity as it is too big for it's own good.

I see your dilemma....and if I may offer a solution.
Stop pulling the yoke by yourself.
Ya know...if you need the ability to understand the Spirit of the Church, seek grace. The Holy Spirit gives us many gifts, if we just ask.

Throwing in the towel over a struggle you are attempting to conquer alone is like trying to build a skyline alone.

It doesnt work. And it is too difficult for a mere human to grasp without a little help from the Lord.

Trust me, if you would, I have been there, did that. Didnt understand until I prayed to understand.

Knock, knock and knock a few mores times...keep knocking until the Lord answers.

What he said!!

Especially rosaries. Lots of rosaries.

(What is a "cafeteria catholic" anyway? I have never heard that expression before. Is it an American thing?)

They jump in line and hog all the food. lol
Just Kidding.

It is a term used to explain how some Catholics will pick and choose that which they want to believe. They don't accept everything in faith, and argue against what they disagree with.

Pray for them.

Every apologist from here to Augustine has used scripture to show the truth of a doctrine, (lame as they may sometimes be.)

Actually even b4 that...er I mean St Augustine.

The early early Church gives us examples of what was taught since the beginning...as well as the catacombs.

The first Christian burials can teach us volumes. Especially the tombs of the 1st martyred Saints.

Peace!

 

[WarriorAngel]

Here is some truly helpful advice from someone who clearly cares, and I really appreciate it. I do have a catechism and understand the Church's teachings for the most part, I just happen to either disagree with (the case againct BC) or not subscribe to (immaculate conception, etc) some of them. My Priest doesn't seem to think any of this is a big deal, but he doesn't seem to think anything is a big deal when you talk to him about various issues. For instance, while he didn't condone pre-marital sex for my wife and I per se, he certainly didn't give the impression that he thought it was a grave matter.

Again ecf's said birth control is murder.

Denial wont make one right... it might actually be impeding. As I am neither judge nor jury, I tell you these things as a concerned sister in faith.

We are to be one another's keeper. Why? Because that is how the love for one another works.

 

[IgnatiusOfAntioch]

I see your dilemma....and if I may offer a solution.
Stop pulling the yoke by yourself.
Ya know...if you need the ability to understand the Spirit of the Church, seek grace. The Holy Spirit gives us many gifts, if we just ask.

Throwing in the towel over a struggle you are attempting to conquer alone is like trying to build a skyline alone.

It doesnt work. And it is too difficult for a mere human to grasp without a little help from the Lord.

Trust me, if you would, I have been there, did that. Didnt understand until I prayed to understand.

Knock, knock and knock a few mores times...keep knocking until the Lord answers.




The early early Church gives us examples of what was taught since the beginning...as well as the catacombs.

The first Christian burials can teach us volumes. Especially the tombs of the 1st martyred Saints.

Peace!

You nailed it again, so clear and concise. Don't take it on yourself to resolve. Trust in Christs Church and pray for wisdom, prudence and understanding.

God Bless.

 

[Rising_Suns]

And for those who consider themselves orthodox; you more than anyone else must be patient with others who may not yet understand certain teachings. Your clear words and your patience will do more for others than harsh criticsm (although there are certain rare times when harshness is required).

Remember, grace implants itself on its own time. And the seeds require time and nurture to grow. Yes, Catholics more than anyone else need to be converted. OBOB should be our first clinic for the conversion of souls; a hospital for the strong and the weak.

-Davide

 

[kamikat]

I've read this thread with great interest. The one thing that I would like to know is: is it better to be a cafeteria Catholic or leave the church and go to a different church where you agree with their doctrine.
For example, my mom hasn't been to confession in 40 years, is divorced and got remarried in a civil service and when I was talking with her about having my kids baptized Catholic but couldn't because I disagreed with some stuff, she told me "nobody really believes all that sutff". Still, she goes to Mass, not every Sunday, but most Sundays and calls herself Catholic. Does it matter that she stays in the RCC or should she leave?

 

[WarriorAngel]

I've read this thread with great interest. The one thing that I would like to know is: is it better to be a cafeteria Catholic or leave the church and go to a different church where you agree with their doctrine.
For example, my mom hasn't been to confession in 40 years, is divorced and got remarried in a civil service and when I was talking with her about having my kids baptized Catholic but couldn't because I disagreed with some stuff, she told me "nobody really believes all that sutff". Still, she goes to Mass, not every Sunday, but most Sundays and calls herself Catholic. Does it matter that she stays in the RCC or should she leave?

Actually, it would be better to stay in the Church, and have the more orthodox members pray very hard for those who are lukewarm or apathetic.

But it would be best if the more orthodox members of the Church were to have a serious discussion about the verse Christ said...
'You are neither cold or hot, and I shall spit you out.'

See what they think of that.

I am a listener. I pay attention to what ppl say, and have verse in hand when they open dialogue about religion, and ask them what they think.

This can lead into a loving discussion.

If it is like knocking your head on a wall... [like i find with my apathetic sister] I mention hell sometimes. And how swift life can end.

Without ever making a direct comment to her. Just as I discuss this with my loved ones, I pray very hard, and offer up Masses for them while they have time.

I worry more deeply than I let on, because I know if I pray and pray for the Lord to not take them immediately and that they have time for last Rites..they may be saved.

There is a prayer to St Joseph for this BTW.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Disclaimor; NOT saying someone wont be saved...but Last Rites is a very beneficial sacrament that no matter the condition of one's soul...they can make it right and still go to Heaven no matter if they were sinful prior to the sacrament.

Make sense?

 

[EllenMoran]

Remember, grace implants itself on its own time. And the seeds require time and nurture to grow.

Such an excellent reminder. This applies to those of us struggling with various doctrines/teachings as well, I think. Sometimes we just need time for information to become understanding, even if the issue is on the back burner for a while. My issue is with my own pride - I tend to think "well, I've always been able to grasp things quickly - if I can't get this rationale/teaching/etc. after reading a few things about it then it must be because it is wrong." Giving my assent and accepting that understanding may just have to come later - even years later, if at all - has been an ongoing lesson for me, especially as I am not the world's most patient person.

 

[Vedant]

This is what I've learned, speaking realistically for a second.

It's easier to be a cafeteria Catholic than be a convert to Catholicism and I'm envious of people who were baptized in the Catholic church, because dissent is tolerated much more with cafeteria Catholics than with people who want to convert. So, that's it. I'm stuck outside your tent.

 

[Fantine]

This is what I've learned, speaking realistically for a second.

It's easier to be a cafeteria Catholic than be a convert to Catholicism and I'm envious of people who were baptized in the Catholic church, because dissent is tolerated much more with cafeteria Catholics than with people who want to convert. So, that's it. I'm stuck outside your tent.

What an interesting comment.

Are you saying that the reason why converts seem to be so much more conservative/orthodox than cradle Catholics is that people who might be interested in Catholicism but who are more independent thinkers are actively discouraged from becoming Catholics?

The only RCIA program I was ever involved in as a sponsor was in a very liberal parish. It was chaired by a Benedictine sister. She discussed different topics about Catholicism, there were Q & A's and discussions but I don't recall it being particularly didactic. I think she assumed that if people wanted to become Catholic they would grow in their faith as they continued as active members of the Church.

But the last two Easter vigils I attended had a ceremony where people recited some kind of oath and then went and signed a book subscribing to that oath.

I liked the old way better. After all, faith is a journey and a process, and if oaths and book signings are the new way of conversion, probably there are many on the process and journey who are being shut out.