What to do with unapologetic "Cafeteria Catholics?"

[Caedmon]

My first inclination is to show them to the door. I sought after and claimed my faith, so anyone who doesn't want to claim it, can leave. Why be something you don't want to be? You don't want it. I don't want it. Go away.

Then I suppress that incompassionate urge, prevent myself from saying and doing those disrespectful things, adopt a spirit of humility, and remind myself that I struggle with things too, and that at one time I didn't know if I wanted to be Catholic, or even theistic for that matter, and I pray for them and love them. Other than that, I continue living the most faithful, compassionate Catholic life that I can.

 

[gentlestorm]

I am a cafeteria Catholic. I don't want to be. There are some things I can't, in all honesty, sign the check to- God knows i've tried. I just can not believe in indulgences, or Immaculate C. or much of the scholastic approach to theology or in much of the miracles-sensationalism. (Please don't make this a 'lets try and teach him about these things thread') I know too much about these things. I do believe in the Eucharist and in living a holy life.
The problem is our pope has said you either believe it all or get out.
This doesn't leave a heck of a lot of choice.
I talked with the Orthodox, as I am interested in what I tthought was a simpler way, about the filioque and they are like talking to a brick wall.
I am totally ready to throw in the towel on institutional Christianity as it is too big for it's own good.

 

[Metanoia02]

The problem is our pope has said you either believe it all or get out.

I promise I won't try and teach you but where did you hear a thing like that. Source?

 

[IgnatiusOfAntioch]

The following link is to a recent thread I started on masturbation. (Hold your snickers). However, the topic quickly spun off to become a debate about a Catholic's faithfulness to the magisterium. "NotHardcore," a Catholic girl, unapologetically rejects the Church's teaching on masturbation and other, unspecified issues. Scroll down to about post #65 for the beginning of this conversation.

http://www.christianforums.com/t4131970-the-m-word-masturbation.html&page=3

I'm flabbergasted. I just don't get it. I have no problem with people disagreeing with the Church or struggling with this-or-that doctrine, but WHY do people call themselves Catholic if they have no intention of, you know, BEING Catholic. I hate these conversations because there's no way around sounding like the arrogant, narrow-minded, bigoted enforcer-of-doctrine. I'm not! I'm a fallible hypocrite, too, but the difference is I believe that words have meanings. I can SAY I'm Emporer of the Universe, but does that make me one?

I become completely unglued in these conversations because, let's face it, it's like discovering a traitor in the White House. How would you all deal with someone who has no intention of living as a Catholic, but remains Catholic?

(Incidentally, way back in college, I came across a girl who said she was going to become a religious education director so she could "change the Church from the inside." Back then I was even less prepared. Where in the world do these supremely arrogant CINOs come from?)

There have been Cafeteria Catholics for the last 400+years, they will eventually break away and form their own denominations. Don't worry about them.

 

[Da_Funkey_Gibbon]

There have been Cafeteria Catholics for the last 400+years, they will eventually break away and form their own denominations. Don't worry about them.

So we shouldn't worry about the salvation of others now? That's new!

 

[faerieevaH]

The problem is our pope has said you either believe it all or get out.

Which pope? When?

I think you may atribute to the pope what other overzealous people would like to hear him say. A lot of people predicted that was what he was going to say or is what he should be saying, but that's really not what the current pope has said on any occasion as far as I know.
Some people however like to play pope in their own right. I remember the mugs, and fake memo's etc. with
"Sender: Benedict XVI
To: Cafetaria Catholics
The cafetaria is closed!!!!"

Overzealous people trying to put their own 'solution' for everyone with doubts or things that they just can't believe in or have trouble into the pope's mouth.


It took me nearly 15 years to start believing some of the things I didn't believe in, and there are STILL some theological fineprints that I have trouble with. Each of us has our own route. You're not 'not catholic' because you can't believe some things, especially not if you would WANT to believe them.

 

[BillH]

1. Pray for them.
2. Offer mortifications for the conversion of their soul.
3. Pray for them.
4. Give them a good example by leading an authentically Catholic life.

 

[QuantaCura]

There have been Cafeteria Catholics for the last 400+years.

Try 1900+years.

 

[QuantaCura]

A distinction should be made between someone struggling to understand and someone who obstinately refuses to believe. The former is still a disciple of truth who has placed truth above himself and strives to believe and live accordingly, whereas the latter is a master of error who has placed himself above truth and only seeks to believe and live according to his own doctrine. One is on the road to salvation and the other on the road to damnation.

 

[Da_Funkey_Gibbon]

I know the pope said something about wanting to have a "smaller, but purer Church". That might have been in his Cardinal Ratzinger days though, not sure. That's probably what is being referred to by gentlestorm.

 

[gentlestorm]

I promise I won't try and teach you but where did you hear a thing like that. Source?

By Cindy Wooden
11/7/2006
Catholic News Service

VATICAN CITY (CNS) – Catholics, whether laypeople or priests, cannot choose which teachings of the church are important to follow and which can be ignored, Pope Benedict XVI said.

"The basic duty of the bishop – pastor and teacher of the faith – is to invite the faithful to accept fully the teaching of the church," said the pope in a Nov. 7 address to the bishops of Switzerland.

...Pope Benedict said he knows that it is a "painful experience" for the bishops to see practicing Catholics and "sometimes even priests" question some of the doctrines and disciplines taught by the church.

"Some have assumed a right to choose, in matters of faith, those teachings that, according to them, should be accepted and those that can be refused," he said.

In countering such positions, the pope told the bishops they must "proclaim the gospel with courage and serenity," trusting that Christ will assist them even when people do not seem ready to hear the truth.

..."I am thinking particularly of the profound crisis in the institution of marriage and the family, of the growing number of divorces, the growing number of abortions and the possibility of unions between persons of the same sex: All of these are an evident sign of de-Christianization," he said.

But even while secularization is spreading, the pope said, people are asking questions about the meaning of life and the proper way of behaving individually and as a society. People will listen to the bishops if they are "united and unanimous" in the positions they take on theological and moral questions, he said.

The pope also asked the bishops to exercise more vigilance over the way the Mass is celebrated in their diocese, ensuring that the church's norms are followed exactly and that the priests celebrate the liturgy "with great dignity." ...
__________________

 

[Metanoia02]

By Cindy Wooden
11/7/2006
Catholic News Service

VATICAN CITY (CNS) – Catholics, whether laypeople or priests, cannot choose which teachings of the church are important to follow and which can be ignored, Pope Benedict XVI said.

"The basic duty of the bishop – pastor and teacher of the faith – is to invite the faithful to accept fully the teaching of the church," said the pope in a Nov. 7 address to the bishops of Switzerland.

...Pope Benedict said he knows that it is a "painful experience" for the bishops to see practicing Catholics and "sometimes even priests" question some of the doctrines and disciplines taught by the church.

"Some have assumed a right to choose, in matters of faith, those teachings that, according to them, should be accepted and those that can be refused," he said.

In countering such positions, the pope told the bishops they must "proclaim the gospel with courage and serenity," trusting that Christ will assist them even when people do not seem ready to hear the truth.

..."I am thinking particularly of the profound crisis in the institution of marriage and the family, of the growing number of divorces, the growing number of abortions and the possibility of unions between persons of the same sex: All of these are an evident sign of de-Christianization," he said.

But even while secularization is spreading, the pope said, people are asking questions about the meaning of life and the proper way of behaving individually and as a society. People will listen to the bishops if they are "united and unanimous" in the positions they take on theological and moral questions, he said.

The pope also asked the bishops to exercise more vigilance over the way the Mass is celebrated in their diocese, ensuring that the church's norms are followed exactly and that the priests celebrate the liturgy "with great dignity." ...
__________________

If you read into this statement that the Pope is telling Catholics to leave the Church if they do not agree with 100% what it teaches, then I can see where you have trouble with the Church.

I promisied I wouldn't try and teach you so I will simply say you have interjected a bias that comes from your own poor formation and not from the statements of the Church.

If you have any other statements in which you see the Pope telling people to leave the Church let me know.

 

[helenofbritain]

1. Pray for them.
   
2. Offer mortifications for the conversion of their soul.
   
3. Pray for them.
   
4. Give them a good example by leading an authentically Catholic life.

What he said!!

Especially rosaries. Lots of rosaries.

(What is a "cafeteria catholic" anyway? I have never heard that expression before. Is it an American thing?)

 

[helenofbritain]

"The basic duty of the bishop – pastor and teacher of the faith – is to invite the faithful to accept fully the teaching of the church," said the pope in a Nov. 7 address to the bishops of Switzerland.

Hey there,

I would stress that the pope said "invite". He didn't say "enforce" or "excommunicate if they don't". He said "invite".

This (*I* think) leaves open the possibility of coming to a fuller understanding of, and appreciation for the teachings of the Church. But it also requires people to continue to grow, and not get stuck in a rut.

 

[gentlestorm]

If you read into this statement that the Pope is telling Catholics to leave the Church if they do not agree with 100% what it teaches, then I can see where you have trouble with the Church.

I promisied I wouldn't try and teach you so I will simply say you have interjected a bias that comes from your own poor formation and not from the statements of the Church.

If you have any other statements in which you see the Pope telling people to leave the Church let me know.

No doubt my formation probably isn't the best but if one doesn't hold the Immaculate Conception to be true or the Infallability of the Pope to be true then one is not a true Catholic.
What I find is that through tradition or long standing popular devotion or belief the church will make something a doctrine and then frantically paddle backwards to try to find scripture that will in some remote indirect way bolster the move.
It all seems so human and arbitrary and ,frankly, controlling.
I do believe the Catholic church is from the apostles in some way but it has accrued a lot of barnacles on it's voyage through time.

 

[Da_Funkey_Gibbon]

No doubt my formation probably isn't the best but if one doesn't hold the Immaculate Conception to be true or the Infallability of the Pope to be true then one is not a true Catholic.
What I find is that through tradition or long standing popular devotion or belief the church will make something a doctrine and then frantically paddle backwards to try to find scripture that will in some remote indirect way bolster the move.
It all seems so human and arbitrary and ,frankly, controlling.
I do believe the Catholic church is from the apostles in some way but it has accrued a lot of barnacles on it's voyage through time.

Well that's a good enough reason to stay in the Church. Just don't give up on her, sure she's had her share of mistakes, being populated by sinners and all, but she has Christ as her head, so stick with it.

 

[newbebe]

The following link is to a recent thread I started on masturbation. (Hold your snickers). However, the topic quickly spun off to become a debate about a Catholic's faithfulness to the magisterium. "NotHardcore," a Catholic girl, unapologetically rejects the Church's teaching on masturbation and other, unspecified issues. Scroll down to about post #65 for the beginning of this conversation.

http://www.christianforums.com/t4131970-the-m-word-masturbation.html&page=3

I'm flabbergasted. I just don't get it. I have no problem with people disagreeing with the Church or struggling with this-or-that doctrine, but WHY do people call themselves Catholic if they have no intention of, you know, BEING Catholic. I hate these conversations because there's no way around sounding like the arrogant, narrow-minded, bigoted enforcer-of-doctrine. I'm not! I'm a fallible hypocrite, too, but the difference is I believe that words have meanings. I can SAY I'm Emporer of the Universe, but does that make me one?

I become completely unglued in these conversations because, let's face it, it's like discovering a traitor in the White House. How would you all deal with someone who has no intention of living as a Catholic, but remains Catholic?

(Incidentally, way back in college, I came across a girl who said she was going to become a religious education director so she could "change the Church from the inside." Back then I was even less prepared. Where in the world do these supremely arrogant CINOs come from?)

What to do with them? Speak the truth but in love. You can’t, not tell them they are in error, you must tell them they are in error but do it in non confrontational, no offensive manner. Explain the reasons why the Church says such and such is a sin or teaching and why it’s non-negotiable to accept that it is.

But note, all you can do is point to the forest that is through the trees. They have to be able to see it in order to know what you are talking about. They may be at an emotional, psychological, and spiritual point in their lives where they can’t see it even though you are pointing it out to them.

So you have to deal with the all of the aspects of where they are at emotionally, spiritually, and psychologically. Half the time we never know where a person is at. So we have to tread lightly. Only qualified persons may be equipped to handle them.

After all this, if they still remain obstinate then you have to let them go. You must shake the dust from your feet (that doesn’t mean to reject them, just to let them go on) and pray for them that God will give them the light they need to see. Ask God to remove what ever stumbling block is in the way that prevents them from seeing.

Live the moral life yourself in order that you do not become a further stumbling block to them seeing the truth. Make sacrifices for them and leave their conversion to the Holy One. Don’t be so quick to think all they did was ignore you. In the future when they are in a better place of acceptance and understanding, they may draw on the experiences they had with you. You don’t want that experience to be bad, so be gentle.

 

[Metanoia02]

What I find is that through tradition or long standing popular devotion or belief the church will make something a doctrine and then frantically paddle backwards to try to find scripture that will in some remote indirect way bolster the move.

That would be the approach of Protestants. As a Catholic I do not have security issues about proving every minute detail of my faith with a Scripture verse. That would be arbitrary and human.

 

[HisKid1973]

What to do with unapologetic "Cafeteria Catholics?

Send them to the back of the lunch line!!

On the serious side: What does this mean and where did it come from?

"Offer mortifications for the conversion of their soul".

Thanks ..God Bless...Kim

 

[gentlestorm]

That would be the approach of Protestants. As a Catholic I do not have security issues about proving every minute detail of my faith with a Scripture verse. That would be arbitrary and human.

Every apologist from here to Augustine has used scripture to show the truth of a doctrine, (lame as they may sometimes be.)