What to do with unapologetic "Cafeteria Catholics?"

[Fantine]

I've read this thread with great interest. The one thing that I would like to know is: is it better to be a cafeteria Catholic or leave the church and go to a different church where you agree with their doctrine.
For example, my mom hasn't been to confession in 40 years, is divorced and got remarried in a civil service and when I was talking with her about having my kids baptized Catholic but couldn't because I disagreed with some stuff, she told me "nobody really believes all that sutff". Still, she goes to Mass, not every Sunday, but most Sundays and calls herself Catholic. Does it matter that she stays in the RCC or should she leave?

Do you think there's a one-size fits all answer to this question?

The answer for your Mom lies in your Mom's heart. Obviously she feels that her attendance at Mass and her practice of Catholicism is helping her build her relationship with God more than attendance at another Church would, and if people in your Mom's situation were discouraged from being Catholic because they didn't meet some arbitrary 'morals code' it could be detrimental to their prayer life and their spiritual well being.

If someone in your Mom's situation feels that another Church would be better equipped to help her on her spiritual journey, then that's her decision.

Everyone benefits from the Mass in a unique way and to a unique degree, but the same Mass is being offered for all. And the Mass has the power to change her (and the collective 'you'.)

 

[gentlestorm]

I see your dilemma....and if I may offer a solution.
Stop pulling the yoke by yourself.
Ya know...if you need the ability to understand the Spirit of the Church, seek grace. The Holy Spirit gives us many gifts, if we just ask.

Throwing in the towel over a struggle you are attempting to conquer alone is like trying to build a skyline alone.

It doesnt work. And it is too difficult for a mere human to grasp without a little help from the Lord.

Trust me, if you would, I have been there, did that. Didnt understand until I prayed to understand.

Knock, knock and knock a few mores times...keep knocking until the Lord answers.

I do constantly seek to understand the Spirit of the Church. I am a born knocker and will keep at it.
Grace is Something I need much more of.
Thanks.

 

[Vedant]

What an interesting comment.

Are you saying that the reason why converts seem to be so much more conservative/orthodox than cradle Catholics is that people who might be interested in Catholicism but who are more independent thinkers are actively discouraged from becoming Catholics?

The only RCIA program I was ever involved in as a sponsor was in a very liberal parish. It was chaired by a Benedictine sister. She discussed different topics about Catholicism, there were Q & A's and discussions but I don't recall it being particularly didactic. I think she assumed that if people wanted to become Catholic they would grow in their faith as they continued as active members of the Church.

But the last two Easter vigils I attended had a ceremony where people recited some kind of oath and then went and signed a book subscribing to that oath.

I liked the old way better. After all, faith is a journey and a process, and if oaths and book signings are the new way of conversion, probably there are many on the process and journey who are being shut out.

From what I've gathered thus far, cradle Catholics get to go through shades of gray of dissent such as Baptism, First Communion, Confirmation, leaving the church during highschool/college, and coming back later in life with reservations about some teaching (i.e. dissent). I'm not given that time between baptism and communion, or the time between communion and confirmation, or even the time when I can break communion with the church and come back fully into to the church instantly after confessing. As a person interested in converting, I'm not allowed to dissent while other Catholics are, which is a painful double standard, because I want to be a part of the Bible studies, community service, Christmas celebrations, feasts, Lord's Supper and the rest of the Sacraments, and I can't. Catholics I know, don't know how good they have it to have to be included in all the history, traditions, art, music, and everything else, even if they dissent with a few things. Realistically, from my point of view, cafeteria Catholics have it best.

 

[NDIrish]

... cafeteria Catholics have it best.

I can understand what you're saying, and your frustration. But I would argue that cafeteria Catholics do not have it best.

The ones that have it best are the ones that fully understand the beauty of the bride of Christ, cooperate with God's grace fully, receive the Sacraments, and follow their path to sanctity.

There's a lot that cafeteria Catholics are missing out on.

 

[QuantaCura]

I can understand what you're saying, and your frustration. But I would argue that cafeteria Catholics do not have it best.

The ones that have it best are the ones that fully understand the beauty of the bride of Christ, cooperate with God's grace fully, receive the Sacraments, and follow their path to sanctity.

There's a lot that cafeteria Catholics are missing out on.

As a former cafeteria Catholic, let me tell you, it is infinitely better to not be one

 

[Snowbunny]

I'm flabbergasted. I just don't get it. I have no problem with people disagreeing with the Church or struggling with this-or-that doctrine, but WHY do people call themselves Catholic if they have no intention of, you know, BEING Catholic. I hate these conversations because there's no way around sounding like the arrogant, narrow-minded, bigoted enforcer-of-doctrine. I'm not! I'm a fallible hypocrite, too, but the difference is I believe that words have meanings. I can SAY I'm Emporer of the Universe, but does that make me one?​

I become completely unglued in these conversations because, let's face it, it's like discovering a traitor in the White House. How would you all deal with someone who has no intention of living as a Catholic, but remains Catholic?

(Incidentally, way back in college, I came across a girl who said she was going to become a religious education director so she could "change the Church from the inside." Back then I was even less prepared. Where in the world do these supremely arrogant CINOs come from?)

i think you should say exactly what you said in your first paragraph... that says everything... and be very patient

 

[gentlestorm]

I'm flabbergasted. I just don't get it. I have no problem with people disagreeing with the Church or struggling with this-or-that doctrine, but WHY do people call themselves Catholic if they have no intention of, you know, BEING Catholic. I hate these conversations because there's no way around sounding like the arrogant, narrow-minded, bigoted enforcer-of-doctrine. I'm not! I'm a fallible hypocrite, too, but the difference is I believe that words have meanings. I can SAY I'm Emporer of the Universe, but does that make me one?​

I become completely unglued in these conversations because, let's face it, it's like discovering a traitor in the White House. How would you all deal with someone who has no intention of living as a Catholic, but remains Catholic?

I've read this over a few times and it strikes me that there is a lot of telling here that is indirect.
First thing i did in your situation was question the church that cranked out these kinda folk.
Where was the teaching? What was the teaching?
How come it is so easy to be a lame Catholic and still believe you are a Catholic? It's not just one or two of us it's thousands.

I was very traditional for a spell of quite a few years and what i found myself in the midst of was a very scared little clique of superstitious religiousity.
I am not making a judgement on anyone only I'm telling how i see it...and I am no better only a little more cynical.
There are people in my crowd who are very strict Catholics and what some of them do (in the practice of their faith),i find painfully childish.
For example, they see confession as a kind of spiritual car wash in the sense that a little sin is ok i'll just go to confession.
The sacraments are like tokens on a game board that one needs to aquire instead of expressions of their faith being sacramentally reproduced.
Granted, it is a testament to their faith in the sacrament but where is their faith in Truth?
These folks are also firm believers that only Catholics can be saved . I have a hard time with that one.

THis is the stuff that has put a distance between me and the church- of which i have been rethinking as I've had some great insight on this forum.

 

[WarriorAngel]

I literally took years before I could let go of the ‘flesh’ and begin to cooperate with grace.

I struggled with what ‘I’ wanted and how ‘I’ wanted to live. What rules I felt I could accept vs what rules the Church had since the beginning. Although I did not know the rules were here since the Apostles and the ECF’s… I still clung to my own personal preferences…and indeed, scripture tells us we struggle with the flesh.
And I promise you…that was exactly what I was doing. I could not see the spiritual aspect and therefore I turned my back on anything that did not promise me how easy and enjoyable life should be for me.
It took Our Lady to finally help me see the grace that I ignored.
The messages she has been helping give to the world on behalf of her Son opened my heart. I repented my sins like never before. I was grievous that I enjoyed my sins. Her messages gave me instruction, hope, repentance, and utter love for Our Lord.
She taught me that our sins grieve Jesus. And it hurts Him how we ignore Him. How we do not seek confession with a truly repentant heart. How lukewarm the world is, or how absolutely the world turned their back on Him.

For the first time, I didn’t really matter. I am a nobody in the incredibly large world. And that the Lord does NOT need me. He may love me, and He may desire me to be His…but in the end, if I am not the one upholding the love, piety and repentance, He will remove me from His everlasting Glory.

The decision came easy for me….I preferred eternal bliss and love to permanent separation of hell. Our Lady said today many souls go to purgatory, and the next many go to hell. Few go to Heaven directly.

And it occurred to me that God loves submission, humility and obedience. And if we can do that, then we shall have eternal peace, eternal love and enjoy total living with Him.

IT was with a multitude of tears, and aching heart for all my sins that I finally and completely repented my sins. I am not perfect, but grace has become my companion, to which my conscience has opened itself, and I now realize when I sin. It is a constant struggle. One of which Christ said we would have. But He is always there if we seek Him, and ask Him to fill us.

Finally to obtain this…we should repent of our sins, and see how we offend our Lord. And the messages also said…the Catholic Church still has the truth.
So if the Church has the truth, then it is the Church to whom I should obey in order to have this truth.

Is it easy?? NO. Do I understand how it works? Yes. The reason we have so many rules and doctrines is because they help us to love. Both God and man. Each law if carefully adhered to.. has a deep underlying reason that helps us to love.

Example; the ten commandments were imposed because they lead us to love others. If we love God by obeying them, they teach us how to love others..etc

Ok. I just wanted to let you know where grace is…it is in our truly repentant and hearts, if we only choose to overcome our fleshly struggles.

 

[gentlestorm]

I literally took years before I could let go of the ‘flesh’ and begin to cooperate with grace.

I struggled with what ‘I’ wanted and how ‘I’ wanted to live.

And it occurred to me that God loves submission, humility and obedience. And if we can do that, then we shall have eternal peace, eternal love and enjoy total living with Him.
.

Ok. I just wanted to let you know where grace is…it is in our truly repentant and hearts, if we only choose to overcome our fleshly struggles.

Humility, submission and obedience...yep. i am a bit short on these. There is a lot to ponder in your words and i will ponder them.

I am used to worshipping my own understanding instead of the Church's.

Thanks .

 

[Fantine]

It took Our Lady to finally help me see the grace that I ignored.
The messages she has been helping give to the world on behalf of her Son opened my heart. I repented my sins like never before. I was grievous that I enjoyed my sins. Her messages gave me instruction, hope, repentance, and utter love for Our Lord.
She taught me that our sins grieve Jesus. And it hurts Him how we ignore Him. How we do not seek confession with a truly repentant heart. How lukewarm the world is, or how absolutely the world turned their back on Him.

The decision came easy for me….I preferred eternal bliss and love to permanent separation of hell. Our Lady said today many souls go to purgatory, and the next many go to hell. Few go to Heaven directly.

I was curious about when Mary delivered these messages, so I went to Google and found out they were delivered in Medjugorje.

I never knew very much about Medjugorje except for Rosary beads turning to gold....but I do know that these apparitions have not been validated by the Church.

I am glad that your belief in these apparitions has brought you closer to God and more observant in your practice of religion, but people are free to believe or not believe that Mary appeared in Medjugorje or that her messages are true.

 

[WarriorAngel]

I was curious about when Mary delivered these messages, so I went to Google and found out they were delivered in Medjugorje.

I never knew very much about Medjugorje except for Rosary beads turning to gold....but I do know that these apparitions have not been validated by the Church.

I am glad that your belief in these apparitions has brought you closer to God and more observant in your practice of religion, but people are free to believe or not believe that Mary appeared in Medjugorje or that her messages are true.

Indeed, no one forces anyone to believe. But when we let it sink in, She has a powerful way of transforming our souls to become like Gold for our Lord.

Well, so I have seen in many other folks who have visited there.

I owe my awakened 'life' to Mary. I owe my whole life and service to Jesus.

 

[Caedmon]

I've been thinking... Maybe we should install sprinkler stations at every door of the sanctuary that continuously spray a fine mist of holy water from the top and side panels. That way, anyone walking in who exhibits heretical tendencies will do one of those melting numbers, you know, like the witch in Oz, or those alien clone things in X-Files. And, you take care of the problem where people pile up at the back of the sanctuary trying to get some holy water before and after mass. Two birds with one stone, in my opinion.

 

[WarriorAngel]

I've been thinking... Maybe we should install sprinkler stations at every door of the sanctuary that continuously spray a fine mist of holy water from the top and side panels. That way, anyone walking in who exhibits heretical tendencies will do one of those melting numbers, you know, like the witch in Oz, or those alien clone things in X-Files. And, you take care of the problem where people pile up at the back of the sanctuary trying to get some holy water before and after mass. Two birds with one stone, in my opinion.

Ok Caedmon...

Throw the ball back infield. lol.
You are funny, but not sure where you came from... lol

 

[ProCommunioneFacior]

I can understand what you're saying, and your frustration. But I would argue that cafeteria Catholics do not have it best.

The ones that have it best are the ones that fully understand the beauty of the bride of Christ, cooperate with God's grace fully, receive the Sacraments, and follow their path to sanctity.

There's a lot that cafeteria Catholics are missing out on.

As a former cafeteria Catholic, let me tell you, it is infinitely better to not be one

Amen , there is nothing as liberating as accepting the Truth, the Way, and the Life and His Church which is the pillar and bulwark of the Truth!

 

[OnTheWay]

I'm flabbergasted. I just don't get it. I have no problem with people disagreeing with the Church or struggling with this-or-that doctrine, but WHY do people call themselves Catholic if they have no intention of, you know, BEING Catholic. I hate these conversations because there's no way around sounding like the arrogant, narrow-minded, bigoted enforcer-of-doctrine. I'm not! I'm a fallible hypocrite, too, but the difference is I believe that words have meanings. I can SAY I'm Emporer of the Universe, but does that make me one?​

I become completely unglued in these conversations because, let's face it, it's like discovering a traitor in the White House. How would you all deal with someone who has no intention of living as a Catholic, but remains Catholic?

(Incidentally, way back in college, I came across a girl who said she was going to become a religious education director so she could "change the Church from the inside." Back then I was even less prepared. Where in the world do these supremely arrogant CINOs come from?)

I think it's in many ways for the same reasons that people that do not practice the Jewish religion in any way still identify themselves as being Jewish. Granted there is a certain ethnic factor there, but I tend to think there are a lot of people that consider themselves Catholics because they grew up in a Catholic cultural environment. It's much the same reason why you have so many "Catholics" that have left the Church in matters of faith, they support homosexuality, abortion, birth control, or heretical theology, but will not physically join another church that matches their beliefs.

 

[Fantine]

Indeed, no one forces anyone to believe. But when we let it sink in, She has a powerful way of transforming our souls to become like Gold for our Lord.

Well, so I have seen in many other folks who have visited there.

I owe my awakened 'life' to Mary. I owe my whole life and service to Jesus.

But that presupposes that the messages from the apparitions are really from Mary and not the writings of someone, however sincere, believing she has seen Mary but actually writing from what she imagines Mary would say.

The messages you say are from Mary don't fit my image of Mary, and the God she describes doesn't fit my image of God. And therefore I am not at all certain that the apparitions are real.

Even if rosaries turned to gold. I believe in miracles...it's just the content of these messages that makes me feel the apparition isn't real..

 

[Vedant]

But that presupposes that the messages from the apparitions are really from Mary and not the writings of someone, however sincere, believing she has seen Mary but actually writing from what she imagines Mary would say.

The messages you say are from Mary don't fit my image of Mary, and the God she describes doesn't fit my image of God. And therefore I am not at all certain that the apparitions are real.

Even if rosaries turned to gold. I believe in miracles...it's just the content of these messages that makes me feel the apparition isn't real..

Does this fall into the category of personal revelation? That is something that one can believe in, but isn't required to believe in.

 

[Fantine]

Does this fall into the category of personal revelation? That is something that one can believe in, but isn't required to believe in.

The apparitions have not been validated by the Church as the apparitions at Fatima and Lourdes have.

 

[Assisi]

http://www.ewtn.org/vexperts/showmessage_print.asp?number=419853&language=en

 

[WarriorAngel]

But that presupposes that the messages from the apparitions are really from Mary and not the writings of someone, however sincere, believing she has seen Mary but actually writing from what she imagines Mary would say.

The messages you say are from Mary don't fit my image of Mary, and the God she describes doesn't fit my image of God. And therefore I am not at all certain that the apparitions are real.

Even if rosaries turned to gold. I believe in miracles...it's just the content of these messages that makes me feel the apparition isn't real..

Not sure how well you know the messages. You did not hear about the actual messages until you googled them, correct?
Had you known them, you could have pin pointed them immediately. Am I correct?

What ascertions you give are based solely on the rhetoric that has been poured out over the internet.
JPll believed in them.

And I have seen a vast number of conversions due to them bring many back to the Church, and back to obedience.

And since the fruits count, this seems genuine...and satan would not divide his kingdom to bring souls back to God, it really is elementary. IMHO.

One wise person said..'If it is not from God, but converts many souls back to God, no harm done.'

Does this fall into the category of personal revelation? That is something that one can believe in, but isn't required to believe in.

Yes.