What "the Word WAS God" means.

[Kain]

Originally posted by fieldsofwind
and dear kain... refer to the countless posts to ed by some field guy... all your questions are addressed... thanks...

have a nice day

FOW

More like explained away from a duality viewpoint.

I don't buy into the trinity, nor a duality. Scriptures don't mention either.

You think Jesus is the Father. So, the Father sent himself and then had himself killed and then resurrected himself to glorify himself and appease himself. There is no son and your god has a human mother.

Your theology just doesn't agree with scripture, no matter how you twist it around.

 

[fieldsofwind]

well then kain.. thats all fine and dandy... but you're forgetting that God is Spirit as well.. yes... call it 'trinity' or whatever... it is still the one Living God.

And your words are just that... your's!

take the many previous posts by the field... and show the biblical error.

I base my faith not on men's wisdom, but on God's voice

take care

FOW

 

[Jedi]

I don't buy into the trinity, nor a duality. Scriptures don't mention either.

Scripture does teach the doctrine of the trinity. The word “trinity” won’t be found in the Bible, of course, since it’s Latin, but that doesn’t mean the teaching is not there. I’m sure we can all agree that the Father is Jehovah God (Father=God). See my previous post on how Jesus is God. Now you have the equation Jesus=God & Father=God.

Now we come to evidence for the divinity of the Holy Spirit. Acts 5:3-4 reads, “Then Peter said, ‘Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? Didn't it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn't the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied to men but to God’” (Bolds mine).

So now you have Jesus=God & Father=God & Holy Spirit=God. Now we must ask ourselves: How many gods are there? Scripture is very clear: just one. Isaiah 43:10 reads, "'You are my witnesses,' declares the Lord, 'and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me.'"

So now we end up with Jesus=Father=Holy Spirit=God=1. It doesn’t get much more simple than that.

Your theology just doesn't agree with scripture, no matter how you twist it around.

You’re the one who doesn’t seem to have scripture backing you up. Merely saying, “No, it isn’t so!” won’t get you anywhere; you’d only be begging the question.

 

[Ben johnson]

The 'holy spirit' is not a separate person-god. It's just a description of the one God's activity.

Hmmmm, the "Holy Spirit" is not separate from God?

"And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not behold Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.

But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, will teach you all things, and bring to rememberence all that I said to you." Jn14:16,17,26

Please help me to understand how the "HOLY SPIRIT" is not a separate person from the FATHER?

 

[OldShepherd]

Originally posted by Kain
Temper, temper, Shepherd. I know that, you as a 'trinitarian' Christian are exempt from the general guidelines on these forums but you should limit your insults. It's not very Christian of you.

While on the topic of 'asinine drivel' let me bring up a couple points for your enjoyment.

Where is the insult? I referred to the nonsense you posted about three women as "asinine drivel." IF those were three real women and I addressed them personally then it would be an insult. BUT my comment was not addressed to a person but toward SOMETHING, your post, therefore it is NOT an insult.

 

[fieldsofwind]

ed..... ed.....eeeeeddddd

here is another reply... and you still really never answered the one before this onehello edward... I find it somewhat humerous that you did not address the post ed... are they things that you did not want to attempt to twist because you knew it would be an obvious effort on your part?

Posted by edpobre: "You are saying that Christ is God the Father who BECAME Christ and Christ BECAME subservient to HIMSELF being the Father, right? Thus, when Christ lifted his eyes to heaven and SAID, "Father, the hour has come..." (John 17:1), he was ACTUALLY praying to himself, he being the Father, right? And he was also crying out to himself on the cross when he said, "my God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" Your belief is FALSE fow. Christ CAME as a HUMAN being and anyone that says he CAME as God the Father who BECAME a MAN has the spirit of the ENEMY of Christ (1 John 4:1-3)."


According to you. You have no way of proving how it is 'false', and acctually... I have proven that your's is. You seem to think it impossible for God to take the nature of man... and come to earth in the flesh as He did indeed do. I notice that you conveniently never address a certain aspect of Hebrews... but we will get to that later.


Posted by edpobre: "Look at Hebrews 9:14 fow. It says, "Christ offered HIMSELF unblemished TO God. If Christ were God, there would be TWO Gods which is NOT what the Bible teaches."

Once again... only in your view does it mean there are two of anything. Christ obviously took off the 'robe' of being God to take on the 'robe' of sin. He submitted Himself to God, from whom He came (get it... whom He was, from whom He came), to be able to sacrifice Himself for us. Here is the Hebrews aspect ed... In Hebrews... the verse is posted in the other posts... it says that the sacrifice was necessary because the covenant could not go into effect until the ONE WHO MADE IT was still living. I ask you ed!!! WHO MADE THE COVENANT!!!???

Posted by edpobre: "Did you read Acts 2:36? Doesn't it say that God MADE Jesus both "LORD and Christ?"

Ed... you are not grasping what took place. Do you think that God... once He took the nature of man... made Himself nothing... now being the Christ... could He do anything on His own??? No... The Father... (remember...from whom He came)... did indeed make Him Lord. The Christ... was nothing, remember? (Made HIMSELF nothing phil 2) And furhermore... this again contrasts Isaiah 42:8...

Posted by edpobre: "How can God and Jesus be the SAME"

Simple... they must be according to God's word: (Hebrews 9:14,16-17) How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God! In the case of a will, it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while THE ONE WHO MADE IT is living. Did God not Make the covenant ed?

Posted by ed: "John 14:5-10 does NOT tell us that Jesus is God the Father"

According to you ed... but lets see what others see if they read it huh?
The Bible says: (John 14:5-10) Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?" Jesus answered, "I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him." Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us." Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work."


Posted by ed: "The "HE" refers to the MAN that the WORD of God turned into. The WORD has NO gender fow, just to let you know.
Rev. 19:13 refers to Jesus. Jesus is the MAN that the WORD turned into (the WORD became Jesus, remember?). Thus, Jesus BECAME the WORD of God AFTER he was born. This is NOT what I am asking for."

Really... well this 'man' was with God in the beginning... through this 'man' all things were made... and without Him NOTHING was made that has been made. This 'man' was given the title KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. Would this not be an example of God giving His glory to 'another'. Do you not claim that Christ is 'another' If He is not God (as you claim), then He would be 'another'... and this would not be 'glory'... KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS??? HE IS GOD who became like a man... took our nature.

This 'man' is described here ed... lets let others see what it says... they should be able to tell since God is not the author of confusion: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it... The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth."

Posted by ed: "But anyone can see that everything you have posted so far are TWISTED interpretation of Isaiah 48:2."

Really ed??? Well lets get a post of that verse on down here... here we go: “I am the LORD; that is my name! I will not give my glory to another”

now you state they are two different things... yet... God makes Christ... the KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS... the Alpha and the Omega... the Beginning and the End... the First and the Last... the Lord of Glory... Thomas cries out to Him 'my Lord and my God'... the Prince of Peace... the Redeemer... the Holy One of Israel... In Hebrews the Father says about the Son... "Your throne, O God, will last forever and ever."

If they are two different beings as YOU state... then God is indeed giving His glory to another... those titles are diety are they not? But this would contradict God's own words.

The fact is that Christ is indeed God who became like man... making Himself nothing... God is the Beginning and the End... He alone is God... Yet Christ is also called God by God.

 

[Jedi]

Please help me to understand how the "HOLY SPIRIT" is not a separate person from the FATHER?

Ah, Mr. Ben Johnson. It’s always a pleasure to see a post by you. I’ve enjoyed much of your posts here at Christianforums.com.

However, the evidence is in favor of the conclusion that the Holy Spirit is God himself, as I’ve pointed out in Acts 5:3-4 above. The Holy Spirit is merely another aspect of God (much like a triangle has three separate points, yet it’s one shape). The Holy Spirit possesses the attributes of deity, such as omnipresence (Psalms 139:7-12) and omniscience (1 Corinthians 2:10, 11). He is associated with God the Father in creation (Genesis 1:2). He is involved with other members of the Godhead in the work of redemption (John 3:5-6; Romans 8:9-17; Titus 3:5-7). He is associated with other members of the Trinity under the “name” (singular) of God (Matthew 28:18-20). Finally, the Holy Spirit appears, along with the Father and the Son in the New Testament benedictions (for example, 2 Corinthians 13:14).

Not only does the Holy Spirit possess deity but he also has a differentiated personality. That he is a distinct person is clear in that scripture refers to “him” with personal pronouns (John 14:26; 16:13). Second, he does things only persons can do, such as teach (John 14:26; 1 John 2:27), convict of sin (John 16:7-7), and be grieved by sin (Ephesians 4:30). Finally, the Holy Spirit has intellect (1 Corinthians 2:10, 11), will (1 Corinthians 12:11), and feeling (Ephesians 4:30).

Pretty nifty, huh?

 

[Kain]

Originally posted by Ben johnson
Hmmmm, the "Holy Spirit" is not separate from God?

"And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not behold Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.

But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, will teach you all things, and bring to rememberence all that I said to you." Jn14:16,17,26

Please help me to understand how the "HOLY SPIRIT" is not a separate person from the FATHER?

I see you've selected particular verses to support your view, but no matter. There are two ways of looking at this.

One way is to assume a trinity from the start then make the text conform to a trinity view, which is what you have done.
In this case, it would be a separate person of God, though I don't see anywhere in the scripture above that says this 'holy spirit,' 'another councellor,' and 'spirit of truth' is actually 'person' of God.
The verses actually have Jesus saying he will ask God to send another to replace Jesus when he is gone.

Which brings me to the second way of looking at this.
In 1 John 2:1, Jesus is referred to as the Comforter (advocate in popular translation) who is with the Father (not the Father Himself).

In John 14:18 (which you conveniently left out), Jesus says:" I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. "

There we have it, from the mouth of Jesus. The spirit of truth mentioned in these verses is the presence of Jesus in spirit returning after his departure.

This is not to be confused with the "spirit of God" which is indwelling in Jesus. Also not a separate person from the Father, but the action of the Father Himself.


From what I can see from the scripture, the second explanation fits better as the first, the spirit being a separate person of a trinity is not supported anywhere.

 

[Kain]

Originally posted by Jedi
Scripture does teach the doctrine of the trinity. The word “trinity” won’t be found in the Bible, of course, since it’s Latin, but that doesn’t mean the teaching is not there. I’m sure we can all agree that the Father is Jehovah God (Father=God). See my previous post on how Jesus is God. Now you have the equation Jesus=God & Father=God.

I've seen your previous post and those points you bring up have been discussed elsewhere. It would be redundant and extensive to go through all of them. But to settle your conclusion, no. I don't agree that we have Jesus=God. I and others have brought up many points to the contrary and continue to do so.
Perhaps it would help you to understand that to the Jews, all things are predetermined by God as having existed before, and things of the future are said to be existing now. All this ties in to the idea of a timeless God.

Now we come to evidence for the divinity of the Holy Spirit. Acts 5:3-4 reads, “Then Peter said, ‘Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? Didn't it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn't the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied to men but to God’” (Bolds mine).

In this case, we do have that evidence. Also in acts 5, a few verses below this 'holy spirit' is confirmed as being the "spirit of God." However, this verse does not intone the "spirit of God" as a distinct separate person of God. This 'holy spirit' or 'spirit of God' is the action, the intelligence, even will of God the Father.

The spirit of God is defined many ways, but none of them are as a co-equal separate person of God.

So now you have Jesus=God & Father=God & Holy Spirit=God. Now we must ask ourselves: How many gods are there? Scripture is very clear: just one. Isaiah 43:10 reads, "'You are my witnesses,' declares the Lord, 'and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me.'"

So now we end up with Jesus=Father=Holy Spirit=God=1. It doesn’t get much more simple than that.

It simply doesn't add up that way. It adds up this way:
Father = God = spirit of God all in one distinct personage of God, not separate.

Jesus = Son of God/Man [Messiah] = Councellor all in one distinct personage of Christ.

Now if you believe Jesus is the messiah, then psalm 110 is proof possitive that Jesus is a man. "Yahweh said unto my Lord..." where the word for "Lord" is adon, which in the scriptures is used to indicate a human lord (whereas 'adonai' is used to indicate God).

You’re the one who doesn’t seem to have scripture backing you up. Merely saying, “No, it isn’t so!” won’t get you anywhere; you’d only be begging the question.

I don't see how you can come to that conclusion. All the scripture you brought up doesn't mention anything about God having separate persons in a co-equal trinity.

 

[edpobre]

Originally posted by fieldsofwind

Posted by edpobre: "You are saying that Christ is God the Father who BECAME Christ and Christ BECAME subservient to HIMSELF being the Father, right? Thus, when Christ lifted his eyes to heaven and SAID, "Father, the hour has come..." (John 17:1), he was ACTUALLY praying to himself, he being the Father, right? And he was also crying out to himself on the cross when he said, "my God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" Your belief is FALSE fow. Christ CAME as a HUMAN being and anyone that says he CAME as God the Father who BECAME a MAN has the spirit of the ENEMY of Christ (1 John 4:1-3)."

According to you. You have no way of proving how it is 'false', and acctually... I have proven that your's is. You seem to think it impossible for God to take the nature of man... and come to earth in the flesh as He did indeed do. I notice that you conveniently never address a certain aspect of Hebrews... but we will get to that later.

With God nothing is impossible (Luke 1:37). However, God did NOT want to become a man. In Numbers 23:19, God says He is NOT a MAN. In Hosea 11:9, God says He is God, NOT man. You CANNOT make God do something He does NOT want to do.

The Bible SAYS, "But when the fullness of the time had come, God SENT forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law" (Gal. 4:4). God SAYS, "...This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased. LISTEN to him" (Matt. 17:5; Matt. 3:17). Jesus SAYS, "...I proceeded forth and CAME from God; nor have I come of myself, but He SENT me" (John 8:42).

The above verses PROVE that Jesus Christ is NOT God the Father who BECAME man. Thus, your belief that Jesus Christ is God the Father who BECAME Jesus, the MAN is FALSE!

Posted by edpobre: "Look at Hebrews 9:14 fow. It says, "Christ offered HIMSELF unblemished TO God. If Christ were God, there would be TWO Gods which is NOT what the Bible teaches."

Once again... only in your view does it mean there are two of anything. Christ obviously took off the 'robe' of being God to take on the 'robe' of sin. He submitted Himself to God, from whom He came (get it... whom He was, from whom He came), to be able to sacrifice Himself for us.

Jesus Christ SAYS he CAME from God. He SAYS he did NOT come by himself but that God SENT him (John 8:40). Your understanding that Jesus is a PART of God the Father because he said "he CAME from God" is FALSE. Jesus is SEPARATE and DISTINCT from God the Father. Hebrews 9:14 CLEARLY shows that "Christ offered himself unblemished to God."

Here is the Hebrews aspect ed... In Hebrews... the verse is posted in the other posts... it says that the sacrifice was necessary because the covenant could not go into effect until the ONE WHO MADE IT was still living. I ask you ed!!! WHO MADE THE COVENANT!!!???

Again, your understanding of Hebrews 9:16-17 is FALSE. God MADE the covenant but because God CANNOT die, He being IMMORTAL (1 Tim. 1:17), even the FIRST Covenant went into effect ONLY with the use of blood (Hebrews 9:18 TEV).

Thus, Moses sprinkled blood of animals on the book and all the people, saying, 'This is the blood of the covenant which God has commanded you' (Hebrews 9:19-20).

The New Covenant which was made by God who CANNOT die, went into effect only THROUGH the blood of Christ (a man instead of animals) who was offered once for the sins of many (Hebrews 9:28).

Posted by edpobre: "Did you read Acts 2:36? Doesn't it say that God MADE Jesus both "LORD and Christ?"

Ed... you are not grasping what took place. Do you think that God... once He took the nature of man... made Himself nothing... now being the Christ... could He do anything on His own??? No... The Father... (remember...from whom He came)... did indeed make Him Lord. The Christ... was nothing, remember? (Made HIMSELF nothing phil 2) And furhermore... this again contrasts Isaiah 42:8...

God did NOT take the nature of MAN. Christ is NOT a part of the Father. God the Father is SEPARATE and DISTINCT from the SON.  God SENT Jesus into the world.

God had said that He will NOT give His glory to another. Therefore, the FACT that God the Father MADE Jesus the SON both Lord and Christ PROVES that God was NOT giving His glory to another. What He DID was FOR His glory.

Posted by edpobre: "How can God and Jesus be the SAME"

Simple... they must be according to God's word: (Hebrews 9:14,16-17) How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God! In the case of a will, it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while THE ONE WHO MADE IT is living. Did God not Make the covenant ed?

As I said earlier in this post, it was God who MADE the covenant. Now, if you go to Hebrews 9:18 TEV, you will read that the FIRST Covenant was put into effect by the USE of blood of ANIMALS. The SECOND Covenant was likewise put into effect by the blood of Christ, a MAN.

Posted by ed: "John 14:5-10 does NOT tell us that Jesus is God the Father"

According to you ed... but lets see what others see if they read it huh?
The Bible says: (John 14:5-10) Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?" Jesus answered, "I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him." Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us." Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work."

If you believe John 8:40 where Jesus says he is a MAN and John 17:3 where Jesus IDENTIFIES the Father alone as the ONLY true God, you would understand that Jesus was speaking FIGURATIVELY. In verse 14, Jesus SAYS, "I go to my Father." Would Jesus be saying this if it is TRUE that he is the Father and the Father is him? Where was the Father? Of course, in heaven. And where was Christ?  Of course, on earth.

When Jesus said, "the words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing the work," he was only repeating what he said in John 12:49, that whatever he says or speaks is a command from God, what to say and what to speak.

Posted by ed: "The "HE" refers to the MAN that the WORD of God turned into. The WORD has NO gender fow, just to let you know. Rev. 19:13 refers to Jesus. Jesus is the MAN that the WORD turned into (the WORD became Jesus, remember?). Thus, Jesus BECAME the WORD of God AFTER he was born. This is NOT what I am asking for."

Really... well this 'man' was with God in the beginning... through this 'man' all things were made... and without Him NOTHING was made that has been made. This 'man' was given the title KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. Would this not be an example of God giving His glory to 'another'. Do you not claim that Christ is 'another' If He is not God (as you claim), then He would be 'another'... and this would not be 'glory'... KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS??? HE IS GOD who became like a man... took our nature.

The FACT that God MADE the MAN Jesus "King of Kings and Lord of Lords" is PROOF that God did NOT give His glory to another. He MADE Jesus "King of Kings and Lord of Lords" FOR His OWN glory. Do you think God would fall back on His word? Definitely NOT! God said, "have I SAID it and NOT do it? or have I SPOKEN and NOT make it good?" (Numbers 23:19).

God SAID He will NOT give His glory to another. HE didn't.

This 'man' is described here ed... lets let others see what it says... they should be able to tell since God is not the author of confusion: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it... The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth."

 In what way was the 'man' in the beginning with God?  The 'man' was part of God's wisdom or 'logos' for the redemption of the world. The 'man' was foreordained or chosen in advance or anointed before the creation of the world (1 Peter 1:20) as Prince and Savior, to give repentance to Israel, the forgiveness of sins (Acts 5:31).

Posted by ed: "But anyone can see that everything you have posted so far are TWISTED interpretation of Isaiah 48:2."

Really ed??? Well lets get a post of that verse on down here... here we go: “I am the LORD; that is my name! I will not give my glory to another”

now you state they are two different things... yet... God makes Christ... the KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS... the Alpha and the Omega... the Beginning and the End... the First and the Last... the Lord of Glory... Thomas cries out to Him 'my Lord and my God'... the Prince of Peace... the Redeemer... the Holy One of Israel... In Hebrews the Father says about the Son... "Your throne, O God, will last forever and ever."

If they are two different beings as YOU state... then God is indeed giving His glory to another... those titles are diety are they not? But this would contradict God's own words.

These titles are NOT deity. That's only your interpretation. God did NOT give His glory to the MAN Jesus by making him Lord and Christ, by making him savior or by giving him a name which is above every name. God would NOT break His word. God did all these in accordance with His PLAN of Salvation. And the implementation of this PLAN is FOR His glory.

In FACT, confessing that Jesus is Lord is TO the glory OF God the Father (Phil. 2:11).

The fact is that Christ is indeed God who became like man... making Himself nothing... God is the Beginning and the End... He alone is God... Yet Christ is also called God by God.

Let's make this clear fow:

1. Christ is God who BECAME like man. That's ONE God.

2. God is the Beginning and the End... He alone is God. This is ANOTHER God. Who is this God who ALONE is God, who is the Beginning and the End?

3. Christ is called God by God. Is this yet ANOTHER God who called Christ God?

I expect clear answers fow.

Ed

 

 

[Ben johnson]

Hello, Jedi! (This from "Star Wars"? Did you hear that I once had LUNCH in the same restaurant as Ben AND Luke? They sat very near me! I wasn't sure until I heard Ben exclaim: "NO! Not the spoon, the FORK! Use the FORK, Luke..."



(Gr8 post btw!)

However, the evidence is in favor of the conclusion that the Holy Spirit is God himself, as I’ve pointed out in Acts 5:3-4 above. The Holy Spirit is merely another aspect of God (much like a triangle has three separate points, yet it’s one shape).

The point was made by the "monotarians" (?), that the Holy Spirit was simply the presence of the Father. And I was arguing, "how can the FATHER send a HELPER the Holy Spirit, if he really meant He was sending HIMSELF?" I do believe the Holy Spirit is a separate and distinct person.

There we have it, from the mouth of Jesus. The spirit of truth mentioned in these verses is the presence of Jesus in spirit returning after his departure.

Ah! I understand. When Jesus said, "I will ask the Father to send a Helper, in My name"---He was REALLY saying, "I will ask the Father to send ME in My name...

(Of course, this contradicts the angel's declaration in Acts 1:11, that Jesus "will come again IN JUST THE SAME WAY AS YOU SAW HIM LEAVE"---that doesn't leave room for Jesus to be sent here as a helper, does it? He's coming back ONLY ONCE, in clouds of glory! Mtt24:30)

That (the "helper" = "Jesus") makes just as much sense as saying, "The Father will send a helper, which is to say the Father will SEND HIMSELF..."

This is not to be confused with the "spirit of God" which is indwelling in Jesus. Also not a separate person from the Father, but the action of the Father Himself.

Hmmm. In John1:14, "And the Word flesh became, and tabernacled amoung us; and we beheld His glory, a glory as of an only begotten..." Is "The WORD" here, is He JESUS?

 

[Jedi]

Ben Johnson: Yeah, my username is partly from Star Wars (Those light saber-swinging good guys), but it's also a title that's Hebrew in origin and means "Beloved by God." So it has a nice double-reference to it.

Also, you wouldn't happen to attend a University by the name of Hardin-Simmons University, would you? I only ask, because there's this upper-classman who seems to be quite godly and popular (especially with the ladies), who's majoring in Theology if I remember correctly. You seem to have a very developed sense of maturity (as this other chap seems to have), and not to mention your apparently vast knowledge of theology matches what I imagine his would be. I'm just curious, since his name, of course, is also Ben Johnson.

I've seen your previous post and those points you bring up have been discussed elsewhere. It would be redundant and extensive to go through all of them. But to settle your conclusion, no. I don't agree that we have Jesus=God. I and others have brought up many points to the contrary and continue to do so.

I have yet to see a single one. Perhaps you’ll humor a college student like me by simply copying and pasting these “many points.” Surely if you’ve been through this so many times, you can respond to my vast number of evidences for the deity of Christ in my first post in this topic.

Perhaps it would help you to understand that to the Jews, all things are predetermined by God as having existed before, and things of the future are said to be existing now. All this ties in to the idea of a timeless God.

I don’t see where I said or even implied otherwise. Simple logic would denote that God exists outside of time, since even time had a beginning (and since God never had a beginning, God exists outside of time).

It simply doesn't add up that way. It adds up this way:
Father = God = spirit of God all in one distinct personage of God, not separate.

Jesus = Son of God/Man [Messiah] = Councellor[sic] all in one distinct personage of Christ.

Only if you ignore all the evidences I’ve presented. Titus 2:13 and Hebrews 1:8 are pretty clear, and this is accompanied by the mountain of evidence of Jesus claiming titles that belong only to God (as well as the apostles attributing titles to Christ that are due only to God). Jesus is God; there’s no way around it for as long as you believe the Bible. The deity of Christ is one of the most supported doctrines in scripture.

Now if you believe Jesus is the messiah, then psalm 110 is proof possitive[sic] that Jesus is a man. "Yahweh said unto my Lord..." where the word for "Lord" is adon, which in the scriptures is used to indicate a human lord (whereas 'adonai' is used to indicate God).

That’s one of the things about Christ; he’s God in human form (Colossians 2:9). So much man that he would die on a cross, yet so much God that he wouldn’t stay dead.

I don't see how you can come to that conclusion. All the scripture you brought up doesn't mention anything about God having separate persons in a co-equal trinity.

You’re doing exactly what I described: begging the question. Ignoring the facts doesn’t mean they’re not there. Given the evidences I've presented, a man would practically have to place his hands over his ears and close his eyes in order not to see that Jesus truly is God himself.

 

[4jc]

Originally posted by Gerry
Good Grief!

I agree, good grief!!!!

 

[Ben johnson]

Also, you wouldn't happen to attend a University by the name of Hardin-Simmons University, would you? I only ask, because there's this upper-classman who seems to be quite godly and popular (especially with the ladies), who's majoring in Theology if I remember correctly. You seem to have a very developed sense of maturity (as this other chap seems to have), and not to mention your apparently vast knowledge of theology matches what I imagine his would be. I'm just curious, since his name, of course, is also Ben Johnson.

Wow---I am honored by you!Maturity and Scriptural purity are things I do strive (and pray) for!

Gosh, I WISH I was popular with the ladies! I walked into a bait shop last week, and asked: "Do you have anything that works on girls? Nothing I have used seems to be working...

I have several email friend-girls, all of whom are married...

And, no I don't attend that university; you see, I graduated college nearly two decades ago. (RATS! Now everyone knows how OLD I am!) And "Ben" might not be my real name...

"Beloved by God"---that's really neat!

Sayyy, is there a Hebrew name that means, "God's gift to women?"

(Bwaaahahahaha!)



"Geech" newspaper cartoon of several years ago---single frame, the blonde, large unmarried spinster is in the hardware store, the clerk staring dolefully; she's saying:

"I'd like to return this stud-finder?"

 

[fieldsofwind]

Posted by edpobre: "The Bible SAYS, "But when the fullness of the time had come, God SENT forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law" (Gal. 4:4). God SAYS, "...This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased. LISTEN to him" (Matt. 17:5; Matt. 3:17). Jesus SAYS, "...I proceeded forth and CAME from God; nor have I come of myself, but He SENT me" (John 8:42). The above verses PROVE that Jesus Christ is NOT God the Father who BECAME man. Thus, your belief that Jesus Christ is God the Father who BECAME Jesus, the MAN is FALSE!"

No ed... they simply say that Christ became like man in order to die for us. He was born of a woman (notice, only of a woman), and under the law. This was the purpose... so that He would be perfect under the law in order to offer Himself unblemished to God, from whom He came. He says that He made Himself nothing in order to do this. You seem to think that all verses showing Jesus' submission indicate that He is not God. Of course... this thinking is proven to be contradictory with God's word. The Bible says the following ed:

1) 1 Corinthians 2:8-- None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

2) (John 14:5-10) Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?" Jesus answered, "I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him." Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us." Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work."

3) (John 1:1-5, 14) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it... The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

4) (Revelation 19:13) He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.

5) (Phil 2:5-10) Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in APPEARANCE as a man, he HUMBLED HIMSELF and BECAME obedient to death--even death on a cross! Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, (Reminder: God will not give His glory to another... He is the LORD and Him alone), that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

6) (Rev 19:16) On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

7) (Hebrews 9:14) How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God! (Hebrews 9:16-17) In the case of a will, it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while THE ONE WHO MADE IT is living.

8) Hebrews 1:5 For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son: today I have become your Father.” Hebrews 1:8 But about the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.” Hebrews 1:10 He also says, “In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands.” (Notice at the beginning of this God says “TODAY… I have become your Father… indicating that He wasn’t always… while Christ says many times that He is the Beginning and the End… indicating the claim I AM)

9) Revelation 22:13—(Jesus speaking) “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.”

10) Colossians 2:9—For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form

11) Titus 2:13—While we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ

12) John 20:28—Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”

13) John 18:3-6—So Judas came to the grove, guiding a detachment of soldiers and some officials from the chief priests and Pharisees. They were carrying torches, lanterns and weapons. Jesus, knowing all that was going to happen to him, went out and asked them, “Who is it you want?” “Jesus of Nazareth,” they replied. “I am he,” Jesus said. (And Judas the traitor was standing there with them.) When Jesus said, “I am he,” they drew back and fell to the ground.

All of these things are Christ… Everyone of your verses indicates a Christ who was God who became like man… Every verse you show only indicates that even further. He submitted Himself to death… He submitted Himself to God after taking off the robe of

 

[fieldsofwind]

You will not listen to the Spirit ed... you claim that things such as "I AM THE ALPHA AND THE OMEGA" are not "glory"... or "Christ is the Lord of Glory"... Is this not glory??? If you don't call that God's glory... then you are mislead, and decieved.

 

[edpobre]

Originally posted by fieldsofwind
You will not listen to the Spirit ed... you claim that things such as "I AM THE ALPHA AND THE OMEGA" are not "glory"... or "Christ is the Lord of Glory"... Is this not glory??? If you don't call that God's glory... then you are mislead, and decieved.

This is the reason I refuse to discuss with you fow. You're such a LIAR!  Go back to post #90 and see that this is what I posted:

These titles are NOT deity. That's only your interpretation. God did NOT give His glory to the MAN Jesus by making him Lord and Christ, by making him savior or by giving him a name which is above every name. God would NOT break His word. God did all these in accordance with His PLAN of Salvation. And the implementation of this PLAN is FOR His glory.

You are not only misled and deceived. You are of your father, the devil.

Ed


 

 

[edpobre]

Originally posted by fieldsofwind

Posted by edpobre: "The Bible SAYS, "But when the fullness of the time had come, God SENT forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law" (Gal. 4:4). God SAYS, "...This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased. LISTEN to him" (Matt. 17:5; Matt. 3:17). Jesus SAYS, "...I proceeded forth and CAME from God; nor have I come of myself, but He SENT me" (John 8:42). The above verses PROVE that Jesus Christ is NOT God the Father who BECAME man. Thus, your belief that Jesus Christ is God the Father who BECAME Jesus, the MAN is FALSE!"

No ed... they simply say that Christ became like man in order to die for us. He was born of a woman (notice, only of a woman), and under the law. This was the purpose... so that He would be perfect under the law in order to offer Himself unblemished to God, from whom He came. He says that He made Himself nothing in order to do this. You seem to think that all verses showing Jesus' submission indicate that He is not God. Of course... this thinking is proven to be contradictory with God's word.

You are simply too BLIND to SEE what these verses are saying  as regards the topic we are discussing fow. We are NOT talking about the reason why Christ was SENT by the Father.

What these verses are saying is that the Father SENT the Son. The Father who was in heaven was saying that Jesus  who was on earth is His SON.

What these verses PROVE is the FALSEHOOD of your belief that 'Christ is God the Father who BECAME a man.'

 Ed

 

[fieldsofwind]

ed... you always state your opinions... without biblical support. The word of God says exactly what I'm attempting to get across to you. God had to take the nature of a man... God was not always referred to as the Father, and Christ as the Son... this happened when God became like man... becoming Christ... while still retaining who He was in Heaven... The Father. Even if I had no bible... I would know this... His Spirit has this engraved upon my heart.

You see all of the numbered points that have been brought against you. You claim that all of these things were given to a man... yet God says that He will not give His glory to another. He does not say "I will give it to another if it glorifies Me". That is your thought... your words... your mind...

No... He says He will not give it away... He will not... I believe what He says... you believe what you say (twist) it into saying.

Here are the points once again... oh yea... and the thing about Hebrews 9... with the one who made the covenant having to die... you completely dodged that one. It will be reposted here for you... good day!

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1) 1 Corinthians 2:8-- None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

2) (John 14:5-10) Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?" Jesus answered, "I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him." Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us." Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work."

3) (John 1:1-5, 14) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it... The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

4) (Revelation 19:13) He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.

5) (Phil 2:5-10) Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in APPEARANCE as a man, he HUMBLED HIMSELF and BECAME obedient to death--even death on a cross! Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, (Reminder: God will not give His glory to another... He is the LORD and Him alone), that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

6) (Rev 19:16) On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

7) (Hebrews 9:14) How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God! (Hebrews 9:16-17) In the case of a will, it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while THE ONE WHO MADE IT is living.

8) Hebrews 1:5 For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son: today I have become your Father.” Hebrews 1:8 But about the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.” Hebrews 1:10 He also says, “In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands.” (Notice at the beginning of this God says “TODAY… I have become your Father… indicating that He wasn’t always… while Christ says many times that He is the Beginning and the End… indicating the claim I AM)

9) Revelation 22:13—(Jesus speaking) “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.”

10) Colossians 2:9—For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form

11) Titus 2:13—While we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ

12) John 20:28—Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”

13) John 18:3-6—So Judas came to the grove, guiding a detachment of soldiers and some officials from the chief priests and Pharisees. They were carrying torches, lanterns and weapons. Jesus, knowing all that was going to happen to him, went out and asked them, “Who is it you want?” “Jesus of Nazareth,” they replied. “I am he,” Jesus said. (And Judas the traitor was standing there with them.) When Jesus said, “I am he,” they drew back and fell to the ground.

I believe

FOW

 

[Jedi]

You are not only misled and deceived. You are of your father, the devil.

Oh, there you go. When you start to lose the argument, ignore what people say, and start hurling insults. Surely if reason won't convince people, this strategy will.

What these verses PROVE is the FALSEHOOD of your belief that 'Christ is God the Father who BECAME a man.'

Um, excuse me, but might I request that you actually respond to my post instead of just begging the question and continue saying "No, it isn't so?" I find it very interesting how I list an entire mountain of evidence for the deity of Christ, and you fail to respond to it, but instead just keep saying "scripture doesn't say Jesus is God." Respond to my posts; don't ignore them. Ignoring the facts doesn't mean they don't exist.