What "the Word WAS God" means.

[edpobre]

Friends,

Trinitarians believe that the phrase "the Word WAS God" means that Jesus WAS God.

NOTHING is FARTHER drom the TRUTH!

It is apostle John's FIGURATIVE description of the POWER of God's WORD that GOES OUT of His mouth. 

God PROMISED the woman's SEED to the serpent in Eden (Gen. 3:15). God PROMISED a prophet to Moses (Deut. 18:18). God PROMISED a son to be born of a virgin when the time comes (Isaiah 7:14).

Apostle John was SAYING that these PROMISES were CERTAIN of FULFILLMENT because these PROMISES or WORD has the SAME power of God who SPOKE these WORDS. Apostle John was RELYING on what God Himself HAS PROMISED, thus:

"...God is NOT like men who lie. He is NOT a HUMAN who CHANGES his mind. Whatever He PROMISES He does. He SPEAKS and it is DONE" (Numbers 23:19 Today's English Version).

"As the rain and the snow come down from heaven and do not return to it without watering the earth and making it bud and flourish, so that it yields seed for the sower and bread for the eater,

so is my WORD that GOES OUT of my mouth; It will NOT return to me EMPTY, but will ACCOMPLISH what I desire and ACHIEVE the purpose for which I SENT it." (Isaiah 55:9-10 New International Version).

"And the WORD was MADE flesh or BECAME flesh" (John 1:14) is apostle John's FIGURATIVE description of the FULFILLMENT of God's PROMISES in the "person" of Jesus, the MAN (John 8:40; 1 Tim. 2:5; Acts 2:22; Acts 17:31; Romans 5:15).

Ed

 

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

Will you please stop this infinite spouting of heretical nonsense? You are breaking Rule #6, not to mention being a pain in the butt.

 

[edpobre]

Originally posted by s0uljah
Will you please stop this infinite spouting of heretical nonsense? You are breaking Rule #6, not to mention being a pain in the butt.

sOuljah,

Don't you RECOGNIZE the word of God when you see one? Is it heretical to share with others the PURE unadulterated word of God?

Ed

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

Do you think the Christians on here haven't read the Bible themselves? Do you think that they might possibly have a different interpretation that you and your pastor hold?

If you don't believe in the Trinity, you are not a Christian. Sorry, its a fact. See rule #6.

 

[wblastyn]

What you are teaching is heresy.

The Early Church believed Jesus was God, and some of the early church fathers knew some of the Apostles personally, I think I'd trust them more than you and your "trying to make God logical" arguments.

Polycarp (70-155/160). Bishop of Smyrna. Disciple of John the Apostle. "O Lord God almighty...I bless you and glorify you through the eternal and heavenly high priest Jesus Christ, your beloved Son, through whom be glory to you, with Him and the Holy Spirit, both now and forever" (n. 14, ed. Funk; PG 5.1040).

Justin Martyr (100?-165?). He was a Christian apologist and martyr. "For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water" (First Apol., LXI).

Ignatius of Antioch (died 98/117). Bishop of Antioch. He wrote much in defense of Christianity. "In Christ Jesus our Lord, by whom and with whom be glory and power to the Father with the Holy Spirit for ever" (n. 7; PG 5.988). "We have also as a Physician the Lord our God Jesus the Christ the only-begotten Son and Word, before time began, but who afterwards became also man, of Mary the virgin. For ‘the Word was made flesh.' Being incorporeal, He was in the body; being impassible, He was in a passible body; being immortal, He was in a mortal body; being life, He became subject to corruption, that He might free our souls from death and corruption, and heal them, and might restore them to health, when they were diseased with ungodliness and wicked lusts." (Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, eds., The ante-nicene Fathers, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1975 rpt., Vol. 1, p. 52, Ephesians 7.)

Irenaeus (115-190). As a boy he listened to Polycarp, the disciple of John. He became Bishop of Lyons. "The Church, though dispersed throughout the whole world, even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and their disciples this faith: ...one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them; and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who became incarnate for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who proclaimed through the prophets the dispensations of God, and the advents, and the birth from a virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the ascension into heaven in the flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and His manifestation from heaven in the glory of the Father ‘to gather all things in one,' and to raise up anew all flesh of the whole human race, in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Savior, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, ‘every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess; to him, and that He should execute just judgment towards all...'" (Against Heresies X.l)

Tertullian (160-215). African apologist and theologian. He wrote much in defense of Christianity. "We define that there are two, the Father and the Son, and three with the Holy Spirit, and this number is made by the pattern of salvation...[which] brings about unity in trinity, interrelating the three, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. They are three, not in dignity, but in degree, not in substance but in form, not in power but in kind. They are of one substance and power, because there is one God from whom these degrees, forms and kinds devolve in the name of Father, Son and Holy Spirit." (Adv. Prax. 23; PL 2.156-7).

Origen (185-254). Alexandrian theologian. A disciple of Origen. Defended Christianity. He wrote much about Christianity. "If anyone would say that the Word of God or the Wisdom of God had a beginning, let him beware lest he direct his impiety rather against the unbegotten Father, since he denies that he was always Father, and that he has always begotten the Word, and that he always had wisdom in all previous times or ages or whatever can be imagined in priority...There can be no more ancient title of almighty God than that of Father, and it is through the Son that he is Father" (De Princ. 1.2.; PG 11.132). "For if [the Holy Spirit were not eternally as He is, and had received knowledge at some time and then became the Holy Spirit] this were the case, the Holy Spirit would never be reckoned in the unity of the Trinity, i.e., along with the unchangeable Father and His Son, unless He had always been the Holy Spirit." (Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, eds., The Ante-Nicene Fathers, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1975 rpt., Vol. 4, p. 253, de Principiis, 1.111.4) "Moreover, nothing in the Trinity can be called greater or less, since the fountain of divinity alone contains all things by His word and reason, and by the Spirit of His mouth sanctifies all things which are worthy of sanctification..." (Roberts and Donaldson, Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. 4, p. 255, de Principii., I. iii. 7).

My Jesus is the Jesus who died for my salvation and rose again on the third day, He was and still is God. 

Your Jesus is not God, not the Jesus of the Bible, therefore you are not a Christian.

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

I think I'd trust them more than you and your "trying to make God logical" arguments.

Well, in fairness to ed, there were those heretics that favored ed's approach in the first few centuries. They were called "Arians" and were stamped out by the Church...although their ideas still creep up once in awhile.

 

[edpobre]

Originally posted by wblastyn What you are teaching is heresy.

Look at my post again wblastyn. These are WORDS of God? FYI, HERESY is "an opinion, doctrine or practice CONTRARY to the TRUTH" (Webster's Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary).T he WORD of God (Bible) is TRUTH (John 17:17).

The Early Church believed Jesus was God, and some of the early church fathers knew some of the Apostles personally, I think I'd trust them more than you and your "trying to make God logical" arguments.

FYI, the so-called "early church Fathers" who TAUGHT that Jesus is God were influential bishops of the ORIGINAL Church of Christ whom apostle Paul WARNED the early Christians to AVOID because they were preaching ANOTHER Jesus, ANOTHER spirit and ANOTHER gospel that they did NOT preach (2 Cor. 11:3-4; Gal. 1:6-8; 1 Tim. 4:1-3).

Apostle Paul FORETOLD that false teachers will rise "from among themselves." The FULFILLMENT of this prophecy are the so-called "early church Fathers."

My Jesus is the Jesus who died for my salvation and rose again on the third day, He was and still is God. 

Jesus did NOT raise himself from the dead. It was GOD who RAISED Jesus from the DEAD! This proves that Jesus is NOT God. 

Your Jesus is not God, not the Jesus of the Bible, therefore you are not a Christian.

[/B]

The Jesus of the Bible is a MAN (John 8:40; Acts 2:22; Acts 17:31; Rom. 5:15; 1 Tim. 2:5). The Jesus of the Bible, who is the SON of God,  IDENTIFIED the FATHER (alone) as the ONLY true God (John 17:3,1).

Anyone who does NOT abide in the DOCTRINE of Christ does NOT have God (2 John 1:9).  And anyone who does NOT believe Jesus is CONDEMNED already (John 3:18).

Ed

 

 

 

[Gerry]

Good Grief!

 

[Ben johnson]

"In [the] beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and God was the Word. ...And the Word flesh became and tabernacled among us..."

Seems clear from the Greek.

"For in Him dwells all the fulness of-the Godhead bodily..." Col2:9

Still seems clear from the Greek...

"In-many-parts and in-many-ways of-old God having-spoken to-the fathers in the prophets, in last days these spoke to us in-Son, whom he-appointed heir of-all-things, by whom also the worlds he-made; ...For to which said-he ever of-the angels, Son my art though; ...but-as-to the Son, THY-throne, O GOD, [is] to the age of-the-age." Heb1

Seems clearer in the Greek...

"Without-father, without-mother, without-genealogy, neither beginning of-days nor of-life end having, but-assimilated to-the Son of-God, abidews a priest in-perpetuity." Heb7 (end of 6)

Hmmm---seems pretty crystal in the Greek.

Uhmmm, Ed, may I send you a spectacle cleaning kit? Maybeeeee, refer you to a better optometrist?

 

[edpobre]

Originally posted by Ben johnson
"In [the] beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and God was the Word. ...And the Word flesh became and tabernacled among us..."

Seems clear from the Greek.

Yeah, it's clear, "the WORD (not Jesus) WAS God." WHAT  was the WORD that WAS God Ben?

"For in Him dwells all the fulness of-the Godhead bodily..." Col2:9

Still seems clear from the Greek...

Yeah, it's clear, "the fullness of the GODHEAD (not God)." Only the King James Version uses the word "Godhead." Other vesions use "divine nature." This proves that the King James Version is BIASED toward the FALSE Trinity doctrine.

"In-many-parts and in-many-ways of-old God having-spoken to-the fathers in the prophets, in last days these spoke to us in-Son, whom he-appointed heir of-all-things, by whom also the worlds he-made; ...For to which said-he ever of-the angels, Son my art though; ...but-as-to the Son, THY-throne, O GOD, [is] to the age of-the-age." Heb1

Seems clearer in the Greek...

Yeah, it's clear that Trinitarians SEE everything with Trinity-tinted glasses. How can Jesus be God when the verse CLEARLY  tells us that God (the true God) SPOKE to us BY or through his Son and APPOINTED Jesus HEIR of all things. Other versions of the Bible renders "by whom" as "THROUGH whom."

The popular version of Heb. 1:8 was LIFTED from a MISTRANSLATED version of Psalm 45:6. Psalm 45 is a poem written to a king who is the most handsome among MEN (verse 2). Psalm 45:6 is a prophecy about the throne that God will give him (cf. Luke 1:32-33).

"Without-father, without-mother, without-genealogy, neither beginning of-days nor of-life end having, but-assimilated to-the Son of-God, abidews a priest in-perpetuity." Heb7 (end of 6)

Hmmm---seems pretty crystal in the Greek.

Yeah, it's clear that Jesus is the SON of God. Therefore, being a SON, Jesus HAS a Father.

Uhmmm, Ed, may I send you a spectacle cleaning kit? Maybeeeee, refer you to a better optometrist?

Ben, I think you should see an opthalmologist, not an optometrist. I think your brain is NOT processing too well wht your eyes see.

Let me test if your brain understands these:

Gen. 1:27 - "So God CREATED man in His own image, in the image of God CREATED He him; male and female CREATED He them." 

John 8:39-40 - "...Jesus SAID to them, 'If Abraham you were Abraham's children you woulda DO the works of Abraham. But now you seek to kill ME, a MAN who has told you the TRUTH which I heard from God. Abraham did NOT do this."

John 17:1,3 - "Jesus SPOKE these words, lifted up his eyes to heaven, and SAID: 'Father, the hour has come. Glorify YOUR Son that YOUR Son may glorify YOU. And this is eternal life, that they may know YOU, the ONLY true God, AND Jesus Christ whom YOU have SENT",

John 20:17 - "Jesus SAID to her, 'Do not cling to me, for I have not yet ascended to MY Father but go to my brethren and say to them, I am ascending to MY Father and your Father, to MY God and your God."

2 Cor. 1:3; Eph. 1:3; Col. 1:3; 2 Peter 1:3 - "Blessed be the God and Father OF our Lord Jesus Christ..."

1 Cor. 8:6[ TEV - "yet for US (Christians), there is ONLY ONE God, the Father, the CREATOR  of all things ..."

Acts 2:22 - "Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a MAN, attested by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs which God DID through him..."

Acts 17:31[.b] - "because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the MAN whom He has ordained..."

Romans 5:15 - "But the free gift is not like the offense. FDor if by the one man's offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one MAN, Jesus Christ, abounded to many."

1 Tim. 2:5 - "For there is ONE God and ONE mediator between God and men, the MAN Christ Jesus."

May it be that your optmetrist is NOT as good as you think?

Ed

 

[edpobre]

Originally posted by s0uljah
Will you please stop this infinite spouting of heretical nonsense? You are breaking Rule #6, not to mention being a pain in the butt.

That's why I'm CONFINED to this forum dude. According to Rule # 6, I'm NOT a Christian.

Ed 

 

[Gunny]

Originally posted by edpobre
That's why I'm CONFINED to this forum dude. According to Rule # 6, I'm NOT a Christian.

Ed 

I thank God(The Father,The Son[Jesus Christ] The Holy Spirit) that you are confined in your posting for you follow after a false prophet/messegner-FELIX MANALO, who started up Iglesia ni Cristo.

You claim to be a follower Of Jesus Christ yet deny His deity.

You claim to be a Christian but follow only the teaching's of INC.

You utilize proof text from the Bible as do all cults that state they have the exclusive way, secret knowledge and the fearless leader that God gave extra-biblical information to-in INC's case because Manalo is the true bonafied messenger of God(So he said)

Satan always disguises as an angel of light.
All false prophets, false religions, sound kind of like the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

INC, states they alone are the only church-there is no salvation without INC and Jesus Christ.

That sort of puts INC on the same plane with Jesus Christ.

You deny the deity of Jesus but you follow after Felix Manalo who sates he is a messenger of God.

I have great empathy for you because the father of lies has you looking to a man and a religion he started more than God.

 

[fieldsofwind]

Ed... you still have not answered these things

Posted by ed: I know what is in the Bible fow. But that is not my question. I said you are NOT being RATIONAL because you said that this "thing" who is at the the side of the Father is "one and the SAME thing as the Father." BTW, what is this you cal "thing" fow?

you are the one that refered to 'thing'

Posted by ed: "Then show me the verse which says that the Father BECAME the SON."

The Bible says: (John 14:5-10) Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?" Jesus answered, "I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him." Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us." Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work."

The Bible says: (John 1:1-5, 14) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it... The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

The Bible says: (Revelation 19:13) He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.

The Bible says: (Phil 2:5-10) Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in APPEARANCE as a man, he HUMBLED HIMSELF and BECAME obedient to death--even death on a cross! Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, (Reminder: God will not give His glory to another... He is the LORD and Him alone), that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

The Bible says this was necessary: (Hebrews 9:14) How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!

The Bible says: (Hebrews 9:16-17) In the cse of a will, it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while THE ONE WHO MADE IT is living.

Did God not make the covenant???

The Bible says: (Rev 19:16) On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. (Remeber God says that I am the LORD; that is my name! I will not give my glory to another or my praise to idols. (Isaiah 42:8)


well ed.... Christ says that HE is the Alapha and the Omega... the Beginning and the End... the First and the Last..... as does the Father. I ask you ed... are they not claiming the saim thing??? if two things come in first in a race... are they not of equal speed??? simple

ed's reply: If that's how you think, do you admit then that you believe there are two "Gods" whom you pass off as "things?"

No ed... that's not how I think.. They both say it ed... God says that there are no others... therefore they are one... they are both the Alpha and the Omega... the Beginning and the End... ther FIRST AND THE LAST!!!

Why did God create the earth ed??? It was because He desired a love relationship with a creation... Love ed... "Through Him all things were made that have been made" (John 1)... God is Love (1st John 4:8)... and through His love, He came to us. (also John 1) There are not two separate 'things' as you say ed... there is one Living God who is omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent. He is undescribable... and says that He IS.

When God made Himself a man... it was His love.... Jesus Christ... and He subjected himself to endure mans punishment, and subservience. This was His sacrifice, that He became our sins... God the Father can not be in the presence of sin, much less become it. Therefore, out of His uncomprehendible love... He made Himself nothing. He came to us and His name is Jesus Christ-Emmanuel-God with us: Yes... God can do that, even becoming something on earth, while at the same time being God the Father in Heaven. Yes... God can do any number of "evens" that one could fathom asking.

Christ, who being in very nature God, who made Himself nothing, became subject to God the Father... and at the end when all things were finished, was taken again into glory and given the title KING OF KINGS AND LORD OR LORDS... ALL CAPS ED. This is the title reserved for the LORD HIMSELF... WHO WILL NOT GIVE HIS GLORY TO ANOTHER... IT IS THE TITLE OF MY LORD CHRIST WHO IS RISEN FROM THE GRAVE HAVING DEFEATED DEATH... AND THE KEYS OF DEATH AND HADES RESIDE IN HIS HANDS! And after it is all over... Christ will subject Himself to the Father thus the Father becomes all in all. Christ is God... who made>HIMSELF<a man... and who was then again glorified by Him from whom He came

I believe

 

[Ben johnson]

Heh heh heh! @ Ed...

I was not quoting from King James, I was quoting from an INTERINEAR GREEK---specifically, the word-for-word English translation.

Hmmm, "The Word" is not Jesus? Well then, hang on a moment---I gotta go erase "And the Word FLESH BECAME, and tabernacled among us" from my Bible...

And I better change the Greek for Col2:9, mine has "Theotes"---what word should I replace it with to correct it to "PURPOSE of God"?

Yeah, it's clear that Jesus is the SON of God. Therefore, being a SON, Jesus HAS a Father. Wellll, WHOEVER is being spoken of here in Heb 7:3 (ignoring that it STATES it's JESUS in 6:20), this person has no beginning---now, if this person was but-a-MAN, then he has a START. But here it says "NO START"---what does that say about divinity, Ed?

I wonder how well you would do with Philip2:6-8: "Have this attitude in yourselves, which was also in Christ Jesus, who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God to be robbery, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. And being found in the appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient even to death on a cross."

Hmmm---He existed in the form (morphe) of God, He did not regard being EQUAL TO GOD (isos) to be robbery (harpagmos); being made (ginomai---coming in, appearing) in the likeness of men. Still say He wasn't God?

I bet you're gonna say, "He was MADE IN THE LIKENESS OF MEN"---but "ginomai" means "APPEARING"---the same thought repeated in the NEXT SENTENCE---being found in the APPEARANCE as a man.

He was EQUAL to God, but that wasn't ROBBERY. He was found in the APPEARANCE as a man, but laid aside His priveledges, and died on the Cross for us.

You can't just give verses that say, "Jesus was a MAN"---all of us agree that Jesus was fully man. Our disagreement, is that WE also believe He was fully God, TOO...

 

[edpobre]

Originally posted by Ben johnson
Heh heh heh! @ Ed...

I was not quoting from King James, I was quoting from an INTERINEAR GREEK---specifically, the word-for-word English translation.

Oh, maybe the Interlinear Greek is a word-for-word Greek translation of the King James Version.

Hmmm, "The Word" is not Jesus? Well then, hang on a moment---I gotta go erase "And the Word FLESH BECAME, and tabernacled among us" from my Bible...

My NKJV Bible says: "And the WORD BECAME FLESH and DWELT among us..." This is like saying: "And the EGG BECAME CHICK and ran around the coop..." Now, put on your THINKING cap Ben and tell me: Who RAN around the coop,&nbsp; the EGG or the CHICK?

And I better change the Greek for Col2:9, mine has "Theotes"---what word should I replace it with to correct it to "PURPOSE of God"?

Why don't you go to the ORIGINAL manuscript instead of looking at a GREEK version that comes from a MISTRANSLATED English version?&nbsp;

Yeah, it's clear that Jesus is the SON of God. Therefore, being a SON, Jesus HAS a Father.

Wellll, WHOEVER is being spoken of here in Heb 7:3 (ignoring that it STATES it's JESUS in 6:20), this person has no beginning---now, if this person was but-a-MAN, then he has a START. But here it says "NO START"---what does that say about divinity, Ed?

You seem to forget what Jesus SAID in John 8:42 or maybe you haven't come across this verse yet: Jesus SAID to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me for I proceeded forth&nbsp;and CAME from God; nor have I come of myself, but He SENT me."

Jesus SAID he is a MAN (John 8:40). The Bible SAYS "God CREATED man (GEn. 1:27). What does this say about Jesus being a CREATION of God, Ben?

I wonder how well you would do with Philip2:6-8: "Have this attitude in yourselves, which was also in Christ Jesus, who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God to be robbery, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. And being found in the appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient even to death on a cross."

Hmmm---He existed in the form (morphe) of God, He did not regard being EQUAL TO GOD (isos) to be robbery (harpagmos); being made (ginomai---coming in, appearing) in the likeness of men. Still say He wasn't God?

I bet you're gonna say, "He was MADE IN THE LIKENESS OF MEN"---but "ginomai" means "APPEARING"---the same thought repeated in the NEXT SENTENCE---being found in the APPEARANCE as a man.

He was EQUAL to God, but that wasn't ROBBERY. He was found in the APPEARANCE as a man, but laid aside His priveledges, and died on the Cross for us.

Jesus SAID that the&nbsp;FATHER is the ONLY true God (John 17:3). Therefore, I do NOT interpret Phil. 2:6-8&nbsp; the way you do.

Phil.&nbsp;2:6-8&nbsp;is apostle Paul's FIGURATIVE description of&nbsp; Jesus' HUMILITY.&nbsp;That although Jesus was "in the FORM of God" (i.e., "god-like") because of the AWESOME power and authority that God GAVE him (Matt. 28:18), the THOUGHT that he is God NEVER entered his mind.

Instead,&nbsp; he "EMPTIED himself" (made NOTHING of his AWESOME power and authority) and took the FORM of a SERVANT (&nbsp;he acted like any&nbsp;POWERLESS man) and HUMBLED himself and became obedient to the point of death.

You can't just give verses that say, "Jesus was a MAN"---all of us agree that Jesus was fully man. Our disagreement, is that WE also believe He was fully God, TOO...

And that's what I can't agree to because&nbsp; ONLY Jesus knows WHO God is (Luke 10:22) and he has IDENTIFIED the FATHER as the ONLY true God (John 17:3).

Ed

 

[edpobre]

Originally posted by gunnysgt


I thank God(The Father,The Son[Jesus Christ] The Holy Spirit) that you are confined in your posting for you follow after a false prophet/messegner-FELIX MANALO, who started up Iglesia ni Cristo.

There is a saying that&nbsp; goes this way: Wherever I am, that's the head of the table. It does NOT really matter much that I'm confined to the "Open Discussion &amp; Debate Forum". On the contrary I like it here because there are more open-minded people that I run into. And more people are responding to my posts than when I was posting at the "Christian Only" forum.

If I were you, I'd be careful NOT to brand anyone a false messenger UNLESS I'm really SURE, you know. For all you know, Bro. Felix Manalo might just be a TRUE messenger of God. If you REJECT him, you are REJECTING Jesus and God.

Jesus SAID to his MESSENGERS: "He who receives YOU receives ME and he who receives ME, receives HIM who SENT me" (Matt. 10:40). "He who hears YOU hears ME, and he who rejects YOU rejects ME, and he who rejects ME rejects HIM who SENT me" (Luke 10:16)

You claim to be a follower Of Jesus Christ yet deny His deity.

Jesus did NOT teach that he is God.&nbsp; Hence, I am NOT denying anything. Jesus TAUGHT that the FATHER (alone) is the ONLY true God (John 17:3). Why should I even think that Jesus did NOT mean what he said? Why should I even think that Jesus did NOT know the mening of the word "ONLY?"

You claim to be a Christian but follow only the teaching's of INC.

The teachings of the INC are teachings of God. Whose teaching do you think John 8:40 and John 17:3 are? How about Acts 2:22; Acts 17:31; Rom. 5:15; 1 Tim. 2:5; 1 Cor. 8:6; 2 Cor. 1:3; Eph. 1:3; Col. 1:3; 2 Peter 1:3; John 20:17; Luke 24:39; John 4:24. Whose teaching are these? These verses talk of Jeus being a MAN, who has a God and Father.

You utilize proof text from the Bible as do all cults that state they have the exclusive way, secret knowledge and the fearless leader that God gave extra-biblical information to-in INC's case because Manalo is the true bonafied messenger of God(So he said)

What's keeping you from utilizing proof texts to prove&nbsp;that you are a TRUE messenger of God? Don't you have any?

Satan always disguises as an angel of light.
All false prophets, false religions, sound kind of like the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

And you think Satan is&nbsp;NOT disguised as a Protestant pastor who teaches the Trinity doctrine?&nbsp;

INC, states they alone are the only church-there is no salvation without INC and Jesus Christ.

That sort of puts INC on the same plane with Jesus Christ.

What's keeping you from claiming the SAME thing for your church?

The Bible teaches that Christ is the SAVIOR of the church (Eph. 5:23). The Bible also teaches that Christ LOVED the church so much that he GAVE his life for it (Eph. 5:25). And the Bible also teaches that Christ purchased the churcch of Christ with his own blood (Acts 20:28 Lamsa).

We believe that church is the IGLESIA NI CRISTO, his body (Eph. 1:22-23).&nbsp;The only way to prove we are not the church referred to in this verses is by&nbsp;proving to us that your church is.

You deny the deity of Jesus but you follow after Felix Manalo who sates he is a messenger of God.

I have great empathy for you because the father of lies has you looking to a man and a religion he started more than God.[

These kind of empty words do NOT prove that Bro. Felix Manalo is a FALSE messenger of God. You have to prove that what he teaches are false and the prophecies that point to him as God's messenger point to someone else.

Ed

 

[fieldsofwind]

God says that He is Israel's ONLY Saviour... And... Christ says that He is the Saviour. It works the same way ed... God became a man... It is His love... just as the Lord is the Spirit (2 Cor. 3:17-18) He IS ed... and you cannot simply believe that He did this.

Ed... believe... I will post this again... because you haven't answered it yet. Answer Him ed.

Posted by ed: I know what is in the Bible fow. But that is not my question. I said you are NOT being RATIONAL because you said that this "thing" who is at the the side of the Father is "one and the SAME thing as the Father." BTW, what is this you cal "thing" fow?

you are the one that refered to 'thing'

Posted by ed: "Then show me the verse which says that the Father BECAME the SON."

The Bible says: (John 14:5-10) Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?" Jesus answered, "I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him." Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us." Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work."

The Bible says: (John 1:1-5, 14) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it... The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

The Bible says: (Revelation 19:13) He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.

The Bible says: (Phil 2:5-10) Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in APPEARANCE as a man, he HUMBLED HIMSELF and BECAME obedient to death--even death on a cross! Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, (Reminder: God will not give His glory to another... He is the LORD and Him alone), that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

The Bible says this was necessary: (Hebrews 9:14) How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!

The Bible says: (Hebrews 9:16-17) In the cse of a will, it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while THE ONE WHO MADE IT is living.

Did God not make the covenant???

The Bible says: (Rev 19:16) On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. (Remeber God says that I am the LORD; that is my name! I will not give my glory to another or my praise to idols. (Isaiah 42:8)


well ed.... Christ says that HE is the Alapha and the Omega... the Beginning and the End... the First and the Last..... as does the Father. I ask you ed... are they not claiming the saim thing??? if two things come in first in a race... are they not of equal speed??? simple

ed's reply: If that's how you think, do you admit then that you believe there are two "Gods" whom you pass off as "things?"

No ed... that's not how I think.. They both say it ed... God says that there are no others... therefore they are one... they are both the Alpha and the Omega... the Beginning and the End... ther FIRST AND THE LAST!!!

Why did God create the earth ed??? It was because He desired a love relationship with a creation... Love ed... "Through Him all things were made that have been made" (John 1)... God is Love (1st John 4:8)... and through His love, He came to us. (also John 1) There are not two separate 'things' as you say ed... there is one Living God who is omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent. He is undescribable... and says that He IS.

When God made Himself a man... it was His love.... Jesus Christ... and He subjected himself to endure mans punishment, and subservience. This was His sacrifice, that He became our sins... God the Father can not be in the presence of sin, much less become it. Therefore, out of His uncomprehendible love... He made Himself nothing. He came to us and His name is Jesus Christ-Emmanuel-God with us: Yes... God can do that, even becoming something on earth, while at the same time being God the Father in Heaven. Yes... God can do any number of "evens" that one could fathom asking.

Christ, who being in very nature God, who made Himself nothing, became subject to God the Father... and at the end when all things were finished, was taken again into glory and given the title KING OF KINGS AND LORD OR LORDS... ALL CAPS ED. This is the title reserved for the LORD HIMSELF... WHO WILL NOT GIVE HIS GLORY TO ANOTHER... IT IS THE TITLE OF MY LORD CHRIST WHO IS RISEN FROM THE GRAVE HAVING DEFEATED DEATH... AND THE KEYS OF DEATH AND HADES RESIDE IN HIS HANDS! And after it is all over... Christ will subject Himself to the Father thus the Father becomes all in all. Christ is God... who made>HIMSELF<a man... and who was then again glorified by Him from whom He came

I believe

 

[fieldsofwind]

Posted By ed: "Jesus SAID he is a MAN (John 8:40). The Bible SAYS "God CREATED man (GEn. 1:27). What does this say about Jesus being a CREATION of God, Ben?"

Obviously ed... all men have sinned, yet not this one... and all men are born of a man and a woman.... yet not this one.... and all men must come through Him... yet not He Himself...

So ed...you see Christ is a man, but not just a man... He is God who took the very nature of man to become our sin... to become the final sacrifice ed... Because He is LOVE

The Bible says: (Hebrews 9:16-17) In the cse of a will, it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while THE ONE WHO MADE IT is living.

Did God not make the covenant???

Believe ed

 

[Ben johnson]

Oh, maybe the Interlinear Greek is a word-for-word Greek translation of the King James Version.

Heh heh heh---now that's funny...

Jesus SAID he is a MAN (John 8:40). The Bible SAYS "God CREATED man (GEn. 1:27). What does this say about Jesus being a CREATION of God, Ben?

Well, everyone agrees that "Jesus-the-MAN" was created when Mary got pregnant. The question is, "when was Jesus THE GOD created?"

Thing is, we have passages as John 8:56, "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad." To which the Jews exclaimed: "WHAT?! You're not even 50 years OLD, Abraham died LONG before, how in THUNDER have you seen Abraham?" And Jesus responded, "Before Abraham was born, I AM". They wanted to kill Him. Why, Ed? Why did they wanna kill Him? Let's get Peabody & Sherman, and "The Wayback Machine", to take us back there and ASK them:

"Peabody here. We're traveling back in time to see why the Jews wanted to kill Jesus. Sherman, set the Wayback machine for 1-BC." "But Mister Peabody, won't that take us to before..." "A long story, Sherman." "Sure thing, Mister Peabody." (Beepings & whirrings.) Peabody: "We seem to have arrived just in time for a riot. Jesus is talking, but the audience is holding STONES! Switch on the translator, Sherman!" "Here it is, Mister Peabody!"

"...My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch/seize them away from the Father's hand. I and the Father are ONE-IN-ESSENCE."

"My goodness, Mister Peabody! They're picking up more stones and I think they're going to THROW them!"

"Better be ready to escape in the Wayback machine, Sherman, this could get ugly..."

"I showed you may good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?"
"NOT for good works, but for BLASPHEMY---because you are a man, but you make yourself out to be GOD!"

"Bull's-eye, Sherman! Quick, into the Wayback machine and let's go. We have our answer---we have asked the Jews around Jesus, and THEY thought He was calling Himself God. Whatever WE think now, the Jews THEN clearly understood Jesus to be calling Himself God."

Jn10:29-33

(With apologies to the Rocky & Bullwinkle Show...)



OH, btw, there was somethin' in Philip2 that you missed: "Jesus did not consider it robbery to be EQUAL to God". A man isn't equal, Jesus was...

 

[edpobre]

Originally posted by Ben johnson

Heh heh heh---now that's funny...
Well, everyone agrees that "Jesus-the-MAN" was created when Mary got pregnant. The question is, "when was Jesus THE GOD created?"

Is there a Jesus, the God? Please show me the verse that says "Jesus the God." Jesus SAID to the Father (John 17:1), "...that they may know YOU, the ONLY true God..." (John 17:3). Why don't you believe that the FATHER (Jesus is the SON) is the ONLY true God? This means there is NO God other than the FATHER. Thus, NEITHER the SON nor anybody else is&nbsp;a TRUE God.

Thing is, we have passages as John 8:56, "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad." To which the Jews exclaimed: "WHAT?! You're not even 50 years OLD, Abraham died LONG before, how in THUNDER have you seen Abraham?" And Jesus responded, "Before Abraham was born, I AM". They wanted to kill Him. Why, Ed? Why did they wanna kill Him? Let's get Peabody &amp; Sherman, and "The Wayback Machine", to take us back there and ASK them:

Who are Peabody and Sherman?&nbsp; Are they MESENGERS from God? ONLY messsengers FROM God&nbsp;CAN deliver messages FROM God!

When Jesus said "Before Abraham was born, I AM,"&nbsp; was Jesus saying to them that "I AM" WAS his NAME?

If your answer is YES,, was the "I AM" in Exodus 3:14, the SAME "I AM" in John 8:58?

If your answer is YES,, then the "I AM" in Exodus 3:14 is NO LONGER God because the Exo. 3:14 "I AM" has TURNED Himself into a MAN. And there would have been NO God in heaven. But we know, this is NOT what the Bible tells us!

On the other hand, if the "I AM" in Exodus 3:14 is NOT the same as the "I AM" in John 8:58, then there&nbsp;would have been &nbsp;TWO "I AMs"&nbsp; in the Old Testament, one of which TURNED Himself into a MAN. But we also know that this is NOT what the Bible teaches.

Either way, Jesus is NOT God! As Jesus has SAID, he is a MAN (John 8:40) and the FATHER is the ONLY true God (John 17:3).

Ed

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