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What "the Word WAS God" means.

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by edpobre, Oct 16, 2002.

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  1. fieldsofwind

    fieldsofwind Well-Known Member

    +7
    Christian
    Someday you'll have to reply to this ed.

    God says that He is Israel's ONLY Saviour... And... Christ says that He is the Saviour. It works the same way ed... God became a man... It is His love... just as the Lord is the Spirit (2 Cor. 3:17-18) He IS ed... and you cannot simply believe that He did this.

    Ed... believe... I will post this again... because you haven't answered it yet. Answer Him ed.

    Posted by ed: I know what is in the Bible fow. But that is not my question. I said you are NOT being RATIONAL because you said that this "thing" who is at the the side of the Father is "one and the SAME thing as the Father." BTW, what is this you cal "thing" fow?

    you are the one that refered to 'thing'

    Posted by ed: "Then show me the verse which says that the Father BECAME the SON."

    The Bible says: (John 14:5-10) Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?" Jesus answered, "I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him." Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us." Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work."

    The Bible says: (John 1:1-5, 14) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it... The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

    The Bible says: (Revelation 19:13) He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.

    The Bible says: (Phil 2:5-10) Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in APPEARANCE as a man, he HUMBLED HIMSELF and BECAME obedient to death--even death on a cross! Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, (Reminder: God will not give His glory to another... He is the LORD and Him alone), that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

    The Bible says this was necessary: (Hebrews 9:14) How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!

    The Bible says: (Hebrews 9:16-17) In the cse of a will, it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while THE ONE WHO MADE IT is living.

    Did God not make the covenant???

    The Bible says: (Rev 19:16) On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. (Remeber God says that I am the LORD; that is my name! I will not give my glory to another or my praise to idols. (Isaiah 42:8)


    well ed.... Christ says that HE is the Alapha and the Omega... the Beginning and the End... the First and the Last..... as does the Father. I ask you ed... are they not claiming the saim thing??? if two things come in first in a race... are they not of equal speed??? simple

    ed's reply: If that's how you think, do you admit then that you believe there are two "Gods" whom you pass off as "things?"

    No ed... that's not how I think.. They both say it ed... God says that there are no others... therefore they are one... they are both the Alpha and the Omega... the Beginning and the End... ther FIRST AND THE LAST!!!

    Why did God create the earth ed??? It was because He desired a love relationship with a creation... Love ed... "Through Him all things were made that have been made" (John 1)... God is Love (1st John 4:8)... and through His love, He came to us. (also John 1) There are not two separate 'things' as you say ed... there is one Living God who is omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent. He is undescribable... and says that He IS.

    When God made Himself a man... it was His love.... Jesus Christ... and He subjected himself to endure mans punishment, and subservience. This was His sacrifice, that He became our sins... God the Father can not be in the presence of sin, much less become it. Therefore, out of His uncomprehendible love... He made Himself nothing. He came to us and His name is Jesus Christ-Emmanuel-God with us: Yes... God can do that, even becoming something on earth, while at the same time being God the Father in Heaven. Yes... God can do any number of "evens" that one could fathom asking.

    Christ, who being in very nature God, who made Himself nothing, became subject to God the Father... and at the end when all things were finished, was taken again into glory and given the title KING OF KINGS AND LORD OR LORDS... ALL CAPS ED. This is the title reserved for the LORD HIMSELF... WHO WILL NOT GIVE HIS GLORY TO ANOTHER... IT IS THE TITLE OF MY LORD CHRIST WHO IS RISEN FROM THE GRAVE HAVING DEFEATED DEATH... AND THE KEYS OF DEATH AND HADES RESIDE IN HIS HANDS! And after it is all over... Christ will subject Himself to the Father thus the Father becomes all in all. Christ is God... who made>HIMSELF<a man... and who was then again glorified by Him from whom He came

    I believe
     
  2. IXOYE

    IXOYE New Member

    16
    +0
    Hello Ed, you sound similar in beliefs to the CD, are you a member of that Church?

    IXOYE
     
  3. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    +374
    Christian
    Similar to the CD? There's a church of the Compact Disk???

    :p

    Welcome to the boards, IXOYE! Say, uhm, That's GREEK, isn't it?

    ;)
     
  4. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +0
    No, I am not a member of the CD. I am a member of the IGLESIA NI CRISTO (church&nbsp;of Christ in Pilipino), the church that Christ BUILT, which is his BODY of which he is the HEAD.

    Ed
     
  5. Kain

    Kain Varpatrol

    175
    +0
    Goodness, Mr. Peabody and Shermen were a bit too hasty in getting back. They missed a very important and relevant part of the conversation that followed:

    " Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
    If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him."


    Your making the same mistake the Jews made in that verse, and a similar one elsewhere. In both cases, Jesus corrects them and denies being God. He says the Father sanctified and sent him. Too bad Mr. Peabody was too hasty and missed that important declaration by Jesus.


    It seems you missed that one. The proper translation (as just about every other translation agrees) is more like:

    "who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped" NASB

    "who, existing in the form of God, counted not the being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped" ASV

    "who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped" RSV


    When taking the surrounding verses and the NT in general into context, we learn that Jesus, though he had much power and could have lived as a god, chose to humble himself instead and live in obediance to Gods will as the Father's servant. For this, he was exalted by God and rewarded with a name above any name.
     
  6. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    +374
    Christian
    Nope, Jesus was being sarcastic. Jesus WAS claiming to be God---He knew it, the disciples knew it, and the Jews perceived it---so Jesus was playing with them intellectually, to confuse them. {It was either that, or RUN AWAY AGAIN---the exact same thing happened in Jn8:59---but it says, "And Jesus WAS HIDDEN from them and went out from the Temple (He POOFED right in front of them!)} Had they been a little bit more SCRIPTURALLY SAVY, they would have realized that Jesus was quoting from Psalm 82---and Psalm 82 ITSELF is sarcastic!

    "How much longer will you judge unjustly and favor the wicked? I, of myself, call you gods (you think you're so great)---but you will DIE LIKE MEN!"

    "HARPAGMOS"---the act of seizing, robbery
    Sorry, the Greek is clear---English may not be.

    If Jesus was not God, then why is Jesus described as "having NO BEGINNING? (Hebrews 7:3)

    Why is JEHOVAH-GOD called the "Alpha & Omega, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty", in Rev1:8, and then in Rev22:13-16, JESUS is the Alpha & Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end"---which is it that's the Alpha & Omega, GOD or JESUS? (The answer, is "yes"...)

    ;)
     
  7. Gunny

    Gunny Remnant Supporter

    +85
    Christian
    Married
  8. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +0
    The reason the Jews&nbsp;ACCUSED Jesus of BLASPHEMY (a charge against a MAN who&nbsp;CLAIMS he is&nbsp;EQUAL to God or MAKES himself God)&nbsp; is because he SAID "God was his Father" (John 5:18) and he SAID "I am the Son of God" (John 10:36).

    Did Jesus CLAIM equality with God or being God BY SAYING "God was his Father" and "I am the Son of God?" Definitely NOT!

    If I tell you that "God is MY Father" (John 20:17)&nbsp; or I tell you that "I am a Son of God," (Rom. 8:17)&nbsp;both of which are TRUE, am I committing BLASPHEMY?

    If anyone ACCUSES me of BLASPHEMY,&nbsp;would tat ACCUSSATION be true or FALSE?&nbsp;

    Jesus is NOT the one described in Heb. 7:3.

    This is how the Today's English Version renders the verse: "There is no record of Melchizedek's father or mother or any of his ancestors; no record of his birth or of his death. He is like the Son of God; he remains a priest forever."

    The Lord God who is (today) and who was (yesterday) and who is to come (tomorrow), the Almighty, is "Alpha and Omega" (Rev. 1:8; Rev. 21:6,5;&nbsp; cf. Rev. 4:8).

    Jesus (the LAMB) is ALSO "Alpha and Omega" (Rev. 1:11; Rev. 22:13).

    The Lord God Almighty is the ONE who sat on the throne (Rev. 4:2; 5:1; 21:5) and Jesus is the LAMB who took the scroll from the right hand of the ONE who sat on the throne (Rev. 5:6).

    BOTH the ONE who sat on the throne and the LAMB are worshiped by every creature in heaven and on earth (Rev. 5:13).

    Ed
     
  9. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    +374
    Christian
    Are you really sure of that???

    "This hope we have as an anchor of the soul, a hope both sure and steadfast and one which enters within the veil, where JESUS has entered as a forerunner for us, HAVING BECOME A HIGH PRIEST FOREVER according to the order of Melchizedek. For this Melchizedek king of Salem, priest of the Most High God who met Abraham, ...without father, without mother, without genealogy having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God he abides a priest forever."

    Ed, those words are sequential and continuous. The chapters & verse numbers were added later---for the record, that was 6:19, 6:20, 7:1, (7:2), 7:3. No gap, continuous. It seems to say that WAS Jesus, doesn't it?

    Jesus became a priest of Melchizedek, Jesus met Abraham LONG before Jesus was BORN (see Jn8:56-57), this Melchizedek was made like the Son of God; who else but Jesus?
    Here is your problem: it is ILLEGAL (in God's eyes) to worship anyone but GOD Himself. Jesus Himself said so in Matt4:10.

    You and I agree that Jesus accepted worship. And in more places than Rev---see Matt14:23, 28:9,17, Jn9:38, to cite only a FEW. How can Jesus accept worship, if He KNOWS HE'S NOT GOD? Wouldn't that be a major crime? (If He was NOT God?)
     
  10. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +0
    Yes Ben. I'm really sure of that. But&nbsp;to give our readers a FAIR view of what we are talking about, this was&nbsp;YOUR question that I replied to:
    And this was my reply in FULL:
    This is NOT my interptretation Ben. This is what the TEV Bible says.

    Ben, OPEN your mind and eyes and get yourself other versions of the Bible to give you a better understanding of the word of God. This is&nbsp;how the Today's English Version renders Hebrews 7:1-3: "This Melchizedek was king of Salem and a priest of the most high God. As Abraham ws coming back from battle in which he defeated the four kings, Melchizedek met him and blessed him, and Abraham gave him one tenth of all he had taken. (The first meaning of Melchizedek's name is "King of Righteousness": and because he was king of Salem, his name also means "King of Peace.") There is no record of Melchizedek's father or mother or any of his ancestors; no record of his birth or of his death. He is like the Son of God; he remains a priest forever."

    Your interpretation of the word of God is TWISTED Ben.

    John 8:56-57 does NOT say that Jesus MET Abraham long BEFORE Jesus was born.

    Jesus did NOT become a priest OF Melchizedek. Jesus is ANOTHER priest who is like Melchizedek (Heb. 7:15 TEV). Jesus BECAME a priest by means of a VOW when God SAID to him: 'The Lord has made a solemn promise and will not take it back: You will be priest forever" (Heb. 7:21) "in the priestly order of Melchizedek" (Heb. 7:17).

    If Jesus were God, there would be TWO Gods Ben - the one who sat on the throne and the LAMB. That would make Christians polytheistic.

    No Ben. Jesus is NOT God. Jesus is a MAN who is&nbsp;a "true worshiper" of God. "True worshipers" worship God in SPIRIT and in TRUTH" for the Father is SEEKING such to worship Him (John 4:23).&nbsp;

    The TRUTH is, God COMMANDS angels to worship Jesus (Heb. 1:6) and COMMANDS that every knee should BOW at the name of Jesus (Phil. 2:10).

    Jesus was worshiping God in TRUTH when he accepted the worship that people rendered to him.

    Ed

    &nbsp;
     
  11. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    +374
    Christian
    Jesus said "only GOD can be worshipped"---I still don't understand how Jesus can be worshipped if only God can be worshipped...

    Well, two persons, yes---but not necessarily two Gods.

    "In the beginning God (singular God) created the heavens and the earth. ...then God said, 'Let the waters'... ...Then God said, 'Let US create man in OUR image'..."

    Suddenly God-singular becomes God-plural. Why is that?
     
  12. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +0
     
  13. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    +374
    Christian
    Jesus is the CREATOR---"Through Him (Jesus) all things were made, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being..." So God is both singular and plural.
    I think the contrast between chapter 1 and chapter 22 does make this clear---"I am the Alpha and Omega, who is and was, THE ALMIGHTY!" And then, "I, Jesus, I am the Alpha and Omega, the First and Last."

    Jesus is one essence with the Almighty... (Jn10:30)

    You see, Ed, Jesus has been portrayed so from the start. "For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; and the government will rest on His shoulders; and His name will be called 'Wonderful Counselor, MIGHTY GOD, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace..." Isaiah 9:6

    This was the prophecy of the Messiah, the Holy One; "She will give birth to a Son---and He shall be called, "IMMANUEL"---which is GOD WITH US!

    Matt1:23

    :)
     
  14. Jenna

    Jenna Senior Veteran

    +179
    Messianic
    Married
    US-Constitution
    And here is the focal point to the entire discussion. Ed has no understanding that God will not be limited to what is easily understood and comprehendable to the small, human brain. Just because someone says that God cannot have more than one facet to His entity does not make it so. Just because a person cannot fully understand how God could be in His kingdom and also inhabit the human form of a man, does not mean that it has not happened.

    Obviously, as a Christian, I do not agree with your beliefs. Since you are so adamant in your way of thinking, I also know that you will not seriously contemplate anything that challenges your pre-concieved notions of God and what is in His ability. For that reason, I will not waste the time trying to soften your heart when there are other people out there who need to hear of the love of God and the message of salvation through Jesus more than what you seem to believe that you do. However, I would close with a caution that trying to pigeon-hole God is very risky business.
     
  15. Hank

    Hank has the Right to be wrong

    +49
    Atheist
    CA-Conservatives
    (I am too late for this discussion.
    Also I don't know if I can post here or not. I believe in God, but not in Christ.)

    If you are so interested in spreading the gospel, and some people see God as a logical rational figure and are not clouded in mysterious doctrines, what makes you think you preach for the actual God, how do you know YOU are one the right track?

    To summarize
    There can be only one God. Jesus challenges that concept. Jesus also never once explained trinity to his followers. He puts himself on equal footings to His father in respect to ruling earth's affairs. Thus to concur with the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob one has to subscribe to trinity to be able to become a follower of Christ at the same time. Yet no where in the New Testament can you find a clear description of trinity.

    To say to anyone : X has no understanding that God will not be limited to what is easily understood and comprehendable to the small, human brain. - Implies that God has given us a second rate brain. I am very much grateful to God for my cunningly and quick acting brain. God is very much comprehensible to me. He His the giver of life, that is all one needs to know. The Old Testament does not worry much about the heavens. It lays out a clear and simple route to have peace with God right now this very moment. The New Testament introduces the heavenly world, things which neither make sense let alone are believable. It too offers peace, but only in the after life. A life no one even knows yet and one can only fantasize, - for that one needs a special set of brain too.
     
  16. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    +374
    Christian
    Jesus does not challenge the concept of "one God". He would only do that if He was a second god. But Jesus identified with the "one God". "Why do you say 'show us the Father'? Do you not believe I am in the Father and the Father is in Me? He who has seen Me, has SEEN THE FATHER!" Jn14:9-11
    We are quite limited in understanding. What is the solution to the "UNIFIED FIELD"? (I suspect Einstein was far closer than he admitted.) What is gravity? Inertia? I would LOVE to answer those. Why is the "speed-of-light" an absolute? Why is it not (and WHEN is it not absolute)?

    Take a trivial equation: T¹ = Tº × (1 - V²/C²)[sup]½[/sup] ---and now, define time for a photon! According to this, its time relative to us is ZERO. Yet it exists from moment to moment. Does the concept have any meaning? So to argue, "God gave us intellect to understand all things"---maybe. But not at the moment. When the Unified Field is published, when we possess "zero-point-energy", when we understand 11-dimensional-space, when we understand all. (There is a book out that purports to prove God's existence---but it requires proficiency in 3 fields, including quantum physics and advanced mathematics...)

    BTW, there are Human Beings that manifest multiple personalities---yet each personality is separate and distinct. Why is it so difficult to imagine ONE GOD, with three distinct personalities? The Apostles understood it so---why else would Peter call the "HOLY SPIRIT", God, in Acts 5:3 & 5?
     
  17. Kain

    Kain Varpatrol

    175
    +0
    (John 1:1-5, 14) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it... The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

    Given the above verses, and their various translations, what could they mean? What is John talking about? A trinity has been suggested, but what other explanation is there?

    For that, we need to examine some background information on John. First, it's important to note that he was a Jew.

    What did John know, as a Jew, that would prompt him to write the above?

    For that, we need to look into Jewish writings.

    From the Jewish Encyclopedia:
    We can now begin to understand what John is talking about. This word of God, the Torah, wisdom itself, which existed before creation, which God consulted in creation, complete for all time for all mankind, which will remain forever... this word of God became flesh by manifesing in Jesus.
     
  18. Gunny

    Gunny Remnant Supporter

    +85
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    Married
     
  19. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

    +165
    Baptist
    Married
    US-Others
    That is quite interesting but misleading. Torah means instruction. Torah is never called "the Word", even in this quote from Jewish Encyclopedia. In the New Testament Torah is always called "The Law" not the word! What then is "The Word" in Jewish thought?

    Memra
    "The Word," in the sense of the creative or directive word or speech of God manifesting His power in the world of matter or mind; a term used especially in the Targum as a substitute for "the Lord" when an anthropomorphic expression is to be avoided.

    —In the Targum:
    In the Targum the Memra figures constantly as the manifestation of the divinepower, or as God's messenger in place of God Himself, wherever the predicate is not in conformity with the dignity or the spirituality of the Deity.
    Instead of the Scriptural "You have not believed in the Lord," Targ. Deut. i. 32 has "You have not believed in the word of the Lord"; instead of "I shall require it [vengeance] from him," Targ. Deut. xviii. 19 has "My word shall require it." "The Memra, (i.e. Word)" instead of "the Lord," is "the consuming fire" (Targ. Deut. ix. 3; comp. Targ. Isa. xxx. 27). The Memra "plagued the people" (Targ. Yer. to Ex. xxxii. 35). "The Memra smote him" (II Sam. vi. 7; comp. Targ. I Kings xviii. 24; Hos. xiii. 14; et al.).

    http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=399&letter=M

    There is much more at the above link. This is what John knew as a Jew concerning "The Word"when he wrote the gospel.
     
  20. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

    +165
    Baptist
    Married
    US-Others
    Excuse me?

    1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
     
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