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What texts prove that Mary was a sinner?

StillGods

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So, if you went around talking about how great your mother was and how much you loved her, and someone called you an idiot for thinking so highly of her, that wouldn't bother you?
And no, I don't think she would be appalled. Prayer is not always worship, but is simply interceding for someone or asking someone for their prayers. Are you appalled when your best friend asks you to pray for them about something or do you feel honored and happy to do it?

I'm not passed away though.
dont take this the wrong way but Mary or any other people who've passed probably dont hear any of the prayers/petitions etc anyway. Jesus intercedes for us before the Father.
but I am tired as mentioned in previous post.
night all.
 
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WanderedHome

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I'm not passed away though.
dont take this the wrong way but Mary or any other people who've passed probably dont hear any of the prayers/petitions etc anyway. Jesus intercedes for us before the Father.
but I am tired as mentioned in previous post.
night all.

Good night. A short article for the morning, if you are still up to the conversation. This is a Catholic source, but Orthodox have the same view of prayer to the saints. (It answers all the questions I know you're going to ask-saves us both on typing :) )

How to Defend the Intercession of the Saints
 
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Bob Carabbio

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So... Mary didn't do the will of the Father??

In that specific instance ABSOLUTELY NOT!!! Mary and her family thought Jesus had gone CRAZY, and they were there to grab Him, and haul him back home. Mary and her family didn't HAVE A CLUE what Jesus was all about. After all, the "JEWISH THEOLOGICAL EXPERTS" could "PROVE" theologically that Jesus was gonna drive out the Roman heathen and their Kingdom and they'd have autonomy again. SURPRISE!!!!
 
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Daniel Marsh

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there isnt an exception to "all" unless "all" doesnt mean what you think it means.

That is the biggest error of the Christadelphians. If Jesus had Original sin or activity sinned than his sacrifice is useless. But, we know otherwise.

1 Peter 1:18-21
J.B. Phillips New Testament
17-21 If you pray to a Father who judges men by their actions without the slightest favouritism, then you should spend the time of your stay here on earth with reverent fear. For you must realise all the time that you have been “ransomed” from the futile way of living passed on to you by your fathers’ traditions, not with some money payment of transient value, but by the costly shedding of blood. The price was in fact the life-blood of Christ, the unblemished and unstained lamb of sacrifice. It is true that God chose him to fulfil this part before the world was founded, but it was for your benefit that he was revealed in these last days—for you who found your faith in God through Christ. And God raised him from the dead and gave him unimaginable splendour, so that all your faith and hope might be centred in God.

Hebrews 4:15
J.B. Phillips New Testament
For our help and comfort—Jesus the great High Priest
14-15 Seeing that we have a great High Priest who has entered the inmost Heaven, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to our faith. For we have no superhuman High Priest to whom our weaknesses are unintelligible—he himself has shared fully in all our experience of temptation, except that he never sinned.

Luke 1:35
English Standard Version
35 And the angel answered her, l“The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy—the Son of God.

Hebrews 7:26
English Standard Version
26 For it was indeed fitting that we should have such a high priest, holy, innocent, unstained, separated from sinners, and exalted above the heavens.

"Furthermore, the Christadelphians, by having a Jesus who has a sin nature, cannot have a proper sacrifice by which their sins are atoned for. According to the Old Testament, the sacrifice for sins had to be without blemish (Deut. 17:1). Having a sin nature would definitely be a blemish which would invalidate the sacrifice." Christadelphian Errors

Discussion article on it here:
Clean Flesh?

They believe that when Jesus was tempted in the wilderness it was his flesh or sin nature, not a personal devil.

If Jesus has a stain of original sin then he is not an lamb without blemish.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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Again I repeat, the Bible says absolutely nothing about your claims so I just cannot believe it.









Yes it does. If Mary was sinless then that would have made her equal to God and that's blasphemous.

Then I do not understand your argument, please dumb it down for me.

Jesus being fully God makes his death apply to all. Whereas, if he were only a creature like Mary, than such a death would not apply to everyone.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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There are no such texts. That's a conclusion that people have arrived at that isn't really supported by the texts themselves.

The only way those New Testament passages apply is if she's a fool and an evildoer. They are quotes of Psalm 14; if you carefully study that psalm you'll see that it doesn't at all indicate that "every person without exception has sinned", and indeed there is no passage of scripture that says or implies anything of the sort.

Romans 3
King James Version
3 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?

2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

5 But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man)

6 God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world?

7 For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?

8 And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.

9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:

14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:

15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:

16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:

17 And the way of peace have they not known:

18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:

30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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Psalm 14
King James Version
14 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

2 The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.

3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

4 Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the Lord.

5 There were they in great fear: for God is in the generation of the righteous.

6 Ye have shamed the counsel of the poor, because the Lord is his refuge.

7 Oh that the salvation of Israel were come out of Zion! when the Lord bringeth back the captivity of his people, Jacob shall rejoice, and Israel shall be glad.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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Said at a time when people thought that men contributed the "seed," and women were merely incubators. I suspect that Augustine's views might be different had he known that the contribution was fifty-fifty. Nevertheless, Augustine was, himself, a sinner prone to error, nor was he uniquely qualified to opine on this point.

I was only bringing up a historical reference for information sake, but since you asked, here is the text.

"
Chapter 19 [VIII.]— The Pelagians Misunderstand Seed In Scripture.
He goes on to say: After a while the divine Scripture says again, 'Adam knew Eve his wife; and she bare a son, and he called his name Seth: saying, The Lord has raised me up another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew.' He then adds: The Divinity is said to have raised up the seed itself; as a proof that the sexual union was His appointment. This person did not understand what the Scripture records; for he supposed that the reason why it is said, The Lord has raised me up another seed instead of Abel, was none other than that God might be supposed to have excited in him a desire for sexual intercourse, by means whereof seed might be raised for being poured into the woman's womb. He was perfectly unaware that what the Scripture has said is not Has raised me up seed in the sense he uses, but only as meaning Has given me a son. Indeed, Adam did not use the words in question after his sexual intercourse, when he emitted his seed, but after his wife's confinement, in which he received his son by the gift of God. For what gratification is there (except perhaps for lascivious persons, and those who, as the apostle says with prohibition, possess their vessel in the lust of concupiscence 1 Thessalonians 4:5) in the mere shedding of seed as the ultimate pleasure of sexual union, unless it is followed by the true and proper fruit of marriage — conception and birth?

Chapter 20.— Original Sin is Derived from the Faulty Condition of Human Seed.
This, however, I would not say, as implying at all that we must look for some other creator than the supreme and true God, of either human seed or of man himself who comes from the seed; but as meaning, that the seed would have issued from the human being by the quiet and normal obedience of his members to his will's command, if sin had not preceded. The question now before us does not concern the nature of human seed, but its corruption. Now the nature has God for its author; it is from its corruption that original sin is derived. If, indeed, the seed had itself no corruption, what means that passage in the Book of Wisdom, Not being ignorant that they were a naughty generation, and that their malice was inbred, and that their cogitation would never be changed; for their seed was accursed from the beginning? Wisdom 12:10-11 Now whatever may be the particular application of these words, they are spoken of mankind. How, then, is the malice of every man inbred, and his seed cursed from the beginning, unless it be in respect of the fact, that by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for in him all have sinned? Romans 5:12 But where is the man whose evil cogitation can never be changed, unless because it cannot be effected by himself, but only by divine grace; without the assistance of which, what are human beings, but that which the Apostle Peter says of them, when he describes them as natural brute beasts made to be taken and destroyed? 2 Peter 2:12 Accordingly, the Apostle Paul, in a certain passage, having both conditions in view — even the wrath of God with which we are born, and the grace whereby we are delivered — says: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for His great love wherewith He loved us, even when we were dead in sins, has quickened us together with Christ; by whose grace we are saved. Ephesians 2:3-5 What, then, is man's natural malice, and the seed cursed from the beginning; and what are the natural brute beasts made to be taken and destroyed, and what the by nature children of wrath? Was this the condition of the nature which was formed in Adam? God forbid! Inasmuch as his pure nature, however, was corrupted in him, it has run on in this condition by natural descent through all, and still is running; so that there is no deliverance for it from this ruin, except by the grace of God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Chapter 21 [IX.]— It is the Good God That Gives Fruitfulness, and the Devil That Corrupts the Fruit."
CHURCH FATHERS: On Marriage and Concupiscence, Book II (Augustine)
 
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Daniel Marsh

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She went ahead of the perfect timing of God, and did not listen to Jesus, presuming to know better than God.

John 2:1-5
On the third day there was a wedding in Cana of Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there. Now both Jesus and His disciples were invited to the wedding. And when they ran out of wine, the mother of Jesus said to Him, “They have no wine.” Jesus said to her, 'Woman, what does your concern have to do with Me? My hour has not yet come.' His mother said to the servants, “Whatever He says to you, do it.

John 2
J.B. Phillips New Testament
The Son of God and a village wedding
2 Two days later there was a wedding in the Galilean village of Cana.

2-3 Jesus’ mother was there and he and his disciples were invited to the festivities. Then it happened that the supply of wine gave out, and Jesus’ mother told him, “They have no more wine.”

4 “Is that your concern, or mine?” replied Jesus. “My time has not come yet.”

5 So his mother said to the servants, “Mind you do whatever he tells you.”

6-11 In the room six very large stone water-jars stood on the floor (actually for the Jewish ceremonial cleansing), each holding about twenty gallons. Jesus gave instructions for these jars to be filled with water, and the servants filled them to the brim. Then he said to them, “Now draw some water out and take it to the master of ceremonies”, which they did. When this man tasted the water, which had now become wine, without knowing where it came from (though naturally the servants who had drawn the water knew), he called out to the bridegroom and said to him, “Everybody I know puts his good wine on first and then when men have had plenty to drink, he brings out the poor stuff. But you have kept back your good wine till now!” Jesus gave this, the first of his signs, at Cana in Galilee. He demonstrated his power and his disciples believed in him.

Jesus in the Temple
12-17 After this incident, Jesus, accompanied by his mother, his brothers and his disciples, went down to Capernaum and stayed there a few days. The Jewish Passover was approaching and Jesus made the journey up to Jerusalem. In the Temple he discovered cattle and sheep dealers and pigeon-sellers, as well as money-changers sitting at their tables. So he made a rough whip out of rope and drove the whole lot of them, sheep and cattle as well, out of the Temple. He sent the coins of the money-changers flying and turned their tables upside down. Then he said to the pigeon-dealers, “Take those things out of here. Don’t you dare turn my Father’s house into a market!” His disciples remembered the scripture—‘Zeal for your house has eaten me up’

18 As a result of this, the Jews said to him, “What sign can you give us to justify what you are doing?”

19 “Destroy this temple,” Jesus retorted, “and I will rebuild it in three days!”

20 To which the Jews replied, “This Temple took forty-six years to build, and you are going to rebuild it in three days?”

21-22 He was, in fact, speaking about the temple of his own body, and when he was raised from the dead the disciples remembered what he had said to them and that made them believe both the scripture and what Jesus had said.

23-25 While he was in Jerusalem at Passover-time, during the festivities many believed in him as they saw the signs that he gave. But Jesus, on his side, did not trust himself to them—for he knew them all. He did not need anyone to tell him what people were like: he understood human nature.

Even I can see that Mary has influence over Jesus there.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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First, if you do any research, you will find a host of Church Fathers that look at Mary as sinless.

Second, the same Church that told you that Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John are inspired text is the same Church that tells you Mary was /is sinless. The same Church that has defined the Trinity in ways that far exceed what the bible has to say (and most protestants accept) is the same Church that says Mary is/was sinless

Third, if you limit your knowledge of the Christian faith to what you think the bible is saying, you are distancing yourself from the treasure which is His Church. The bible doesnt claim to hold the sum total of the Christian faith. The bible isnt the foundation of truth for a Christian. St. Paul tells us it is the Church.

So, your challenge is somewhat pointless, even though you can look for yourself and find many Early Church fathers that believed Mary was sinless.

Also, the church fathers are the educated one's that made copies of the NT Greek texts.
So, if you don't trust the fathers, you have no reason to trust the manuscripts of the NT.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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Off-topic. I won't participate in a hijacking of the thread.

set the challenge in a new thread and post a link in this thread for any who is interested.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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"The report concerning the child was noised abroad in Bethlehem. Some said, 'The Virgin Mary has given birth before she was married two months.' And many said, 'She has not given birth; the midwife has not gone up to her, and we heard no cries of pain'"
- Ascension of Isaiah 11 [A.D. 70]

The above is a bit elliptical. With the acknowledgement that Sacred Scripture regards the pains of child birth to be a consequence of sin, it is informative that Our Lady was believed to have given birth to Our Lord without the customary birth pains.

Belief in her sinlessness would become more specific in subsequent texts, however.

"You alone and your Mother are more beautiful than any others, for there is no blemish in you nor any stains upon your Mother. Who of my children can compare in beauty to these?"
- Ephraim The Syrian, Nisibene Hymns 27:8 [A.D. 361]

It seems logical to believe this belief in Our Lady's sinlessness predates Ephraim's writings.

"Come, then, and search out your sheep, not through your servants or hired men, but do it yourself. Lift me up bodily and in the flesh, which is fallen in Adam. Lift me up not from Sarah but from Mary, a virgin not only undefiled, but a virgin whom grace had made inviolate, free of every stain of sin"
- Ambrose Of Milan, Commentary on Psalm 118:22–30 [A.D. 387]

Again, this is far more specific about Our Lady being preserved free from the stain of sin.

Hope this helps.

Was Rev 12 about Mary?
 
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April_Rose

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no, it is like saying I'm gonna save you from skinning your knee so you dont need the bandaid




I'm sorry but that doesn't make any sense.





If she was a mother then she sinned...no mother is perfect






No, but she probably thought that she was so everybody was like write that down and that's how the rumor got started. :D
 
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Daniel Marsh

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CORRECT! If there is any scripture describing a sinful act by Mary, this is the only one. She was privileged with divine information and assumed it could be used for a purpose not sanctioned by her Son. Though He did it anyway, it is clear He was not pleased. Be blessed.

What part says she sinned? What part says Jesus was not pleased? Is it possible for the man Jesus to be not pleased and what he is not pleased with not be sin like in the tree that bore no fruit out of season?
 
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April_Rose

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Then I do not understand your argument, please dumb it down for me.

Jesus being fully God makes his death apply to all. Whereas, if he were only a creature like Mary, than such a death would not apply to everyone.





Umm,.. I don't think I was talking to you? Did I accidentally quote you instead because I share your beliefs.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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How do you see the well-publicized fact of over a million Roman Catholic clergy and laypersons signing a petition to the Vatican asking for Mary to be accorded the title and identify of co-redeemer (or redemptrix) of mankind?

What is the official definition of co-redeemer (or redemptrix)??
 
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Daniel Marsh

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Heart to heart moment:

As an Orthodox Christian, I need to remember that the only person's sin I need to be concerned about is my own. If we are tempted to judge our brother, sister, or mother we should quickly shut our mouth and pray "Lord have mercy on me, sinner." When I stand before God on Judgment Day, He will only confront my own sin. He will not ask me about whether I believe Mary sinned or what I think about the sins of any other saints or anyone facing Hell. It would be unthinkable to even bring it up! St. Paul instructs us in Philippians to consider ourselves as the worst of sinners and everyone else as better than ourselves.

While both Catholic and Orthodox both highly esteem Mary for her willingness to allow herself to be used by God in this way, there is a difference between our understandings. The Orthodox never dogmatized a view on the Theotokos (Mary), but much of our belief comes from Tradition. The reason the Catholics defined this as dogma and introduced "Immaculate Conception" is because the problem created by Original Sin. The Eastern Orthodox do not accept O.S. as explained in the West, so it never created a problem for our understanding of the Theotokos.

Therefore, there is not a unanimous opinion in the Orthodox East on whether Mary sinned, which is why I have tried to avoid making any direct statements about that. I have only tried to challenge any absolute claims that she did sin.

What I am seeing rather is a huge misunderstanding from the Western Christians here on what exactly sin is, what does it mean to be saved, and what is needed for someone to be a savior. This is the more important issue. I have already provided explanations in previous pages of this thread, so if anyone wants to ask about that, I am willing to continue the discussion.

I Cor 7 comes to mind.
 
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