What scriptures support praying to the saints?

[DrBubbaLove]

That Gal 3:20 is a powerful testimony to the deity of Christ Jesus.

Given that some angels deceive, dressed in light, given we may go directly to God, given the angel spoke the same to Hermas who apparently refused the advice, its clear to me what we should and should not do in the house of God.

Hermas does not refuse advice in the story, in fact at that point he has already received advice from an angel. They are talking about something that has already happened, that he had asked for and got an explanation from an angel. At the quoted point in the story an angel asks why Hermas didn't just ask the Lord for help. Hermas replies that he would have asked the Lord directly if he did not have the angel to ask.

So the point of the story was not that Hermas was wrong in asking the angel for help, in fact the angel had already helped him.

The only reason the story is brought up in these discussions is because it shows an example of intercession with person on earth by a Heavenly host (an angel in this case - not a Saint). So it demonstrates the Early Christians would not see asking a being in Heaven as wrong because that is what Hermas did - and it also demonstrates the angels are apparently available to us for at least that much.

 

[Fireinfolding]

Then don't ever ask another another person to pray for you. The Saints are more alive than we who are stuck on Earth

Jesus says those stuck on earth, how can you know whoever you are praying to in heaven even agrees with you? He says where two of you agree on earth.

 

[mmksparbud]

I have searched the bible over and over and have not found one single instance where Jesus Christ prayed to anyone other than to His Father. When asked to teach us to pray He said to pray "Our Father, which art in heaven..." Jesus did not pray to Moses or to Elijah or to Enoch--only to His Father and that is what He told us to do. We are to pray together, for each other--the living for the living. But--you can do whatever you want. I simply choose to do as Christ did. He asked His deciples to pray for Him, never did He ask anyone else in heaven to intercede for Him--He is the intercessor.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Jesus says those stuck on earth, how can you know whoever you are praying to in heaven even agrees with you? He says where two of you agree on earth.

If I ask someone I know to pray for me and they do not agree with what I am asking for - then I suspect and woud expect they will pray for God's Will be done.
I would expect nothing less from a Saint present in Heaven.

Do I think people abuse prayer requests - and even Catholic prayers to Saints?

Sure, people are people and I do not think Catholics have the only market on abusing prayer. I do not think abuse means a valid prayer is wrong or that the prayer of a righteous man cannot avail much.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

I have searched the bible over and over and have not found one single instance where Jesus Christ prayed to anyone other than to His Father. When asked to teach us to pray He said to pray "Our Father, which art in heaven..." Jesus did not pray to Moses or to Elijah or to Enoch--only to His Father and that is what He told us to do. We are to pray together, for each other--the living for the living. But--you can do whatever you want. I simply choose to do as Christ did. He asked His deciples to pray for Him, never did He ask anyone else in heaven to intercede for Him--He is the intercessor.

What is prayer?
You are asking something of someone. I pray you do this or do that, and sometimes for my behalf. I dare say Catholics pray the Lord Prayer way more often than any other Church so it is not like we do not do both.

We also ask each other to remember us in prayer. As a Church at every Mass we also pretty much pray for everyone, the entire human race (past, present, future). So again, it is not like asking Saints to pray for us is the only prayer we make.

The point about the Transfiguration is that it shows a man talking to Saints, which according to some here are "dead" and therefore such a conversation should never take place by God's command whether it is one-sided or two way. Yet we have Jesus, God/Man doing just that, talking to Saints.

That cannot be the right understanding of the OT verses against "summoning" because we cannot have Jesus violating His own command.

 

[mmksparbud]

There are only certain people mentioned as having been translated to heaven without seeing death--Enoch and Elijah--Moses died and was buried but he was resurrected and the angels had to tear him away from Satan by saying the Lord rebuke you--other than that, there were some that were resurrected when Christ rose from the dead--it doesn't name them-- those are the only ones living in heaven now--the rest are dead, sleeping,awaiting the resurrection.

 

[Fireinfolding]

If I ask someone I know to pray for me and they do not agree with what I am asking for - then I suspect and woud expect they will pray for God's Will be done.
I would expect nothing less from a Saint present in Heaven.

Do I think people abuse prayer requests - and even Catholic prayers to Saints?

Sure, people are people and I do not think Catholics have the only market on abusing prayer. I do not think abuse means a valid prayer is wrong or that the prayer of a righteous man cannot avail much.

Gods will is done in heaven, its His will on earth (as it is) in Heaven.

When he speaks of the prayer of a righteous man he speaks of Elijah a man with like passions, and one who was on earth praying for rain for the same.

I dont get why folks wouldnt just pray to God the Father. He sent his Son to recconcile us why side step to another after what He has provided a way for?

I will agree that prayer can be abused when asking God amiss after their own lusts thats everywhere, but thats part of learning "how to pray" and what for.

Solomon would be a good example of not asking amiss

 

[Fireinfolding]

Folks there appear to get irritated when you believe Jesus is true but dont say they are (as they profess themselves) I dont get it.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Gods will is done in heaven, its His will on earth (as it is) in Heaven.

When he speaks of the prayer of a righteous man he speaks of Elijah a man with like passions, and one who was on earth praying for rain for the same.

I dont get why folks wouldnt just pray to God the Father. He sent his Son to recconcile us why side step to another after what He has provided a way for?

I will agree that prayer can be abused when asking God amiss after their own lusts thats everywhere, but thats part of learning "how to pray" and what for.

Solomon would be a good example of not asking amiss

And am unclear how anyone could attend a Mass and not realize they were praying to God throughout it, including the Lord's Prayer.

Nor could I imagine anyone attending a Mass and believe they had witnessed the summoning of a Saint in order to obtain hidden knowledge.

Jack Chic on the other hand as lots of imagination, but I would hope no one basis their understanding of Catholic practices on what he publishes.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Folks there appear to get irritated when you believe Jesus is true but dont say they are (as they profess themselves) I dont get it.

I find people only get real irritated when others misrepresent their faith and say things like they should listen to Jesus.

 

[Standing Up]

Hermas does not refuse advice in the story, in fact at that point he has already received advice from an angel. They are talking about something that has already happened, that he had asked for and got an explanation from an angel. At the quoted point in the story an angel asks why Hermas didn't just ask the Lord for help. Hermas replies that he would have asked the Lord directly if he did not have the angel to ask.

So the point of the story was not that Hermas was wrong in asking the angel for help, in fact the angel had already helped him.

The only reason the story is brought up in these discussions is because it shows an example of intercession with person on earth by a Heavenly host (an angel in this case - not a Saint). So it demonstrates the Early Christians would not see asking a being in Heaven as wrong because that is what Hermas did - and it also demonstrates the angels are apparently available to us for at least that much.

We're going in circles with Hermas. There's no doubt there's angels, but also demons who masquerade. If one goes to an angel, given that we are Christians, the angel has already asked, why don't you go directly now to God?

 

[Fireinfolding]

I find people only get real irritated when others misrepresent their faith and say things like they should listen to Jesus.

I stand corrected DrBubbaLove, I should have said "some" folks.

I dont see why Jesus words would be considered irritaing, or those who encourage you to listen to them.

How about...

John 2:5 His mother saith unto the servants, Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it.


Unless they MUST hear it from Mary?

Shes right on, Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it.

 

[Fireinfolding]

And am unclear how anyone could attend a Mass and not realize they were praying to God throughout it, including the Lord's Prayer.

Nor could I imagine anyone attending a Mass and believe they had witnessed the summoning of a Saint in order to obtain hidden knowledge.

Jack Chic on the other hand as lots of imagination, but I would hope no one basis their understanding of Catholic practices on what he publishes.

I havent any clue how this pertains to anything I said, and I have less of a clue who Jack Chic is either.

 

[Fireinfolding]

Luke 1:46 And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,

Try it

Mary is so right on

 

[DrBubbaLove]

We're going in circles with Hermas. There's no doubt there's angels, but also demons who masquerade. If one goes to an angel, given that we are Christians, the angel has already asked, why don't you go directly now to God?

Circles because the point of referencing the story is missed (that intercession by heavenly host can be saught and given) and the exact opposite message is alleged. Catholics have been doing this four times longer than Protestants, do you really think we would lie about or reference something that did not support the belief?

The angel actually commends Hermas as not being slothful in prayer and one who has had prayer answered from the Lord. Hermas has been asking him to show him the meaning of the visions the angel had ALREADY given him (past); the angel puts him off several times and finally says why don't you ask the Lord for understanding, to which Hermas replies I would if I did not have you to ask. So Hermas persists and the angel finally explains the vision. So this messenger intercedes for Hermas at his request.

So am not sure how one can conclude from that story that the lesson was not to ask angels for help or that they cannot or should not intercede for us.

Here is the relevant part of the whole sequence after the visions:

"But those who are weak and slothful in prayer, hesitate to ask anything from the Lord; but the Lord is full of compassion, and gives without fail to all who ask Him. But you, having been strengthened by the holy Angel, and having obtained from Him such intercession, and not being slothful, why do not you ask of the Lord understanding, and receive it from Him? I said to him, Sir, having you with me, I am necessitated to ask questions of you, for you show me all things, and converse with me; but if I were to see or hear these things without you, I would then ask the Lord to explain them.

Chapter 5

I said to you a little ago, he answered, that you were cunning and obstinate in asking explanations of the parables; but since you are so persistent, I shall unfold to you the meaning of the similitudes...."

 

[Fireinfolding]

Luke 1:47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Luke 1:28;
Hail Mary, full of Grace the Lord is with thee, blessed are though among women.

 

[Fireinfolding]

Ah...I see you see an Angel's greeting to Mary as a prayer you should say to her.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

How one could say that like repeating scripture would be a bad thing is beyond me, but as it was asked, yes:

Luke 1.48 - ...behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

I havent any clue how this pertains to anything I said, and I have less of a clue who Jack Chic is either.

Well, if you ever need a job or some extra money you might google him.