What scriptures support praying to the saints?

[Standing Up]

Will go where ever the Church leads me as I found that much more reliable than relying on myself.

Ah, that took me a lot of time reading, least you could was read it.

So, did you simply cut/paste those "sources"? You don't know where the reference is in Clement of A? Evidently so since Hermas witnesses to the opposite of what you're trying to prove.

You missed the point. If the witches of Endor wrote something that was teasing/making fun the early Church about veneration of Saints/Icons (which goes hand in hand with the asking them to pray for us) - then we can accept the early Church did that. Does not mean one has to believe or speak to witches - does require thinking however.

You seem to think nothing pagan came into the church, notwithstanding apostolic warnings.

The Gnostics cannot be dissin the early Church for something they did not think the early Church was doing. And since they were opposed to the orthodox teachings, the fact they are recorded doing this supports that it was an accepted practice.

What? The Gnostics were doing something, therefore the Church can copy their practices? Ah, you do agree pagan stuff is in the Church and is okay, right?

 

[Standing Up]

Liturgy of Saint James - appeals to saints for prayer/praise, communion of saints and martyrs
CHURCH FATHERS: Divine Liturgy of St. James


[priest prays] For every Christian soul in tribulation and distress, and needing the mercy and succour of God; for the return of the erring, the health of the sick, the deliverance of the captives, the rest of the fathers and brethren that have fallen asleep aforetime;

This reference above?



Manuscript tradition
The Liturgy of Saint James is considered to be the oldest surviving liturgy developed for general use in the Church. Its date of composition is still disputed with some authorities proposing an early date, perhaps ca. AD 60, close to the time of composition of Saint Paul's Epistle to the Romans, while most authorities propose a fourth century date for the known form, because the anaphora seems to have been developed from an ancient Egyptian form of the Basilean anaphoric family united with the anaphora described in The Catechisms of St. Cyril of Jerusalem[1].
The earliest manuscript is the ninth-century codex, Vaticanus graecus 2282, which had been in liturgical use at Damascus, in the diocese of Antioch.
The only critical edition is the one published by Dom B.-Charles Mercier in the Patrologia Orientalis, vol. 26 (1950).
Liturgy of St James - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Got anything earlier than what is most likely c350ad?

 

[Incariol]

Liturgy of Saint James - appeals to saints for prayer/praise, communion of saints and martyrs
CHURCH FATHERS: Divine Liturgy of St. James


[priest prays] For every Christian soul in tribulation and distress, and needing the mercy and succour of God; for the return of the erring, the health of the sick, the deliverance of the captives, the rest of the fathers and brethren that have fallen asleep aforetime;


This?

Manuscript tradition
The Liturgy of Saint James is considered to be the oldest surviving liturgy developed for general use in the Church. Its date of composition is still disputed with some authorities proposing an early date, perhaps ca. AD 60, close to the time of composition of Saint Paul's Epistle to the Romans, while most authorities propose a fourth century date for the known form, because the anaphora seems to have been developed from an ancient Egyptian form of the Basilean anaphoric family united with the anaphora described in The Catechisms of St. Cyril of Jerusalem[1].
The earliest manuscript is the ninth-century codex, Vaticanus graecus 2282, which had been in liturgical use at Damascus, in the diocese of Antioch.
The only critical edition is the one published by Dom B.-Charles Mercier in the Patrologia Orientalis, vol. 26 (1950).
Liturgy of St James - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Got anything earlier than what is most likely c350ad?

 

[whitetiger1]

I will help

Liturgy of Saint James -- Britannica Online Encyclopedia

One more link:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08371a.htm

 

[DrBubbaLove]

So, did you simply cut/paste those "sources"? You don't know where the reference is in Clement of A? Evidently so since Hermas witnesses to the opposite of what you're trying to prove.

You seem to think nothing pagan came into the church, notwithstanding apostolic warnings.

What? The Gnostics were doing something, therefore the Church can copy their practices? Ah, you do agree pagan stuff is in the Church and is okay, right?

Am not sure how to explain it better. Let me try again.

If you were going to make fun of my praying to saints - in order for that to be funny to anybody it would have to first be true that I do that and ALSO understood/known to the audience hearing the joke that I pray to saints.

The fact that the writer of "The Shepard" can be shown to support Gnostic beliefs - which the Church fought against - does not mean that we cannot use his attempt at disparaging the veneration of Saints as proof that the early Church was doing that. It would make no sense for him to be disparaging something they were not doing.

 

[Standing Up]

Am not sure how to explain it better. Let me try again.

If you were going to make fun of my praying to saints - in order for that to be funny to anybody it would have to first be true that I do that and ALSO understood/known to the audience hearing the joke that I pray to saints.

The fact that the writer of "The Shepard" can be shown to support Gnostic beliefs - which the Church fought against - does not mean that we cannot use his attempt at disparaging the veneration of Saints as proof that the early Church was doing that. It would make no sense for him to be disparaging something they were not doing.

Who's making fun?

You've cited Hermas as a support when in fact it says not to do it. Are you saying it was a gnostic practice?

 

[Standing Up]

I will help

Liturgy of Saint James -- Britannica Online Encyclopedia

One more link:

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Liturgy of Jerusalem

We're trying to get some early support for the practice. Hermas is c150? It says not to do it.

 

[tangled]

The scriptures with the apostles asking for prayer was when they were alive...
We should pray to "Our Father," as Jesus said...

 

[Standing Up]

Do people read the sources for what they're trying to prove?

"That it was actually composed by St. James the Less, as first Bishop of Jerusalem, is not now believed by any one"
newadvent.org

So, we're left with most scholars date it to 365ad. Far too late to be used to prove any sort of apostolic connection.

 

[Standing Up]

The scriptures with the apostles asking for prayer was when they were alive...
We should pray to "Our Father," as Jesus said...

Jesus said, when two ON EARTH agree ...

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Who's making fun?

You've cited Hermas as a support when in fact it says not to do it. Are you saying it was a gnostic practice?

HELLO!
The part where he is talking about showing St John a painting of St John and St John's response =
GNOSTIC MAKING FUN OF ORTHODOX PRACTICE OF VENERATION OF SAINTS

would pictures help???


SEE POST 103 - THIS IS WHAT POSTING ON DRUGS DOES - I SAY HERMAS'S THE SHEPARD BUT AM TALKING ABOUT THE apocryphal acts of John quoted earlier - SORRY Standing UP

 

[Fireinfolding]

Jerm 23:30 Therefore, behold, I am against the prophets, saith the LORD, that steal my words every one from his neighbour.

Theif comes to steal, and not other folks words

 

[Standing Up]

Bubba:Relevant to this thread the earliest copies of liturgies we have contain a request for matyrs to pray for us, just as the Mass today includes a request for intercessory prayer from Saints. So while you can deny these practices are scriptural it cannot be denied the early Church was doing this and doing it with Apostolic approval.

If you read it, you'll find the Angel telling him to go directly to the Lord for understanding and not use an intermediary.

" But you, having been strengthened by the holy Angel, and having obtained from Him such intercession, and not being slothful, why do not you ask of the Lord understanding, and receive it from Him? I said to him, Sir, having you with me, I am necessitated to ask questions of you, for you show me all things, and converse with me; but if I were to see or hear these things without you, I would then ask the Lord to explain them. "

Remember the context of Christianity---the veil is torn, one may go directly to the Lord/God now. In pagan or OT, there were intermediaries. Not so Christianity.

So, Hermas fails miserably and is in truth a witness against intercession of "angels"/"whatever".

I'll look at your other stuff as well.

HELLO!
The part where he is talking about showing St John a painting of St John and St John's response =
GNOSTIC MAKING FUN OF ORTHODOX PRACTICE OF VENERATION OF SAINTS

What are you talking about? The example you use says not to do it.

 

[Whisper of Hope]

Jesus said, when two ON EARTH agree ...

Amen.

Jesus said, "Again I say to you that if two of you agree on earth concerning anything that they ask, it will be done for them by My Father in heaven. For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them.” (Matthew 18:19-20)

 

[Fireinfolding]

I keep writing it too Piercing the Darkness because the more you read it the more his sayings sink into your ears concerning what he said Our prayer is to the Father. The nations of old who prayed did so to other gods (whether in heaven or in earth) though for us there is our God the Father and one Lord Jesus Christ who was He who was to speak the words the Father put in His mouth. We are to "hear HIM". So the disciple ask Him, Lord teach us HOW to pray and so He does, He says SAY our Father which art in Heaven. He never directs their prayer to another, even after He love them as His own and was leaving the world and going to the Father (and at that day) he says ye shall ask ME NOTHING

It becomes like WOW!! He REALLY DID say this!


John 16:26 At that day ye shall ask ((in my name)): and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:

John 16:27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.

　​

Mat 18 :19 Again, I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree (((on earth))) as touching any thing that they shall ask it shall be (((done for them))) of my Father which is in heaven.

I mean... he was leaving the world and going to the Father (having loved His own) YET he says (right there) that ye shall ask "in my name" and he specifies that he is NOT saying he will pray the Father FOR you. That ye shall ask ME nothing, that we (on earth) are to ask the Father (in heaven) not another. And if just two of you (here on earth specifically) shall agree (touching anything) that they ask this will be done for them of my Father in heaven.


Its REALLY kool if you think about it, no one ever says anything of that verse.

You get freed from everything ever taught you that Jesus spake nothing on. We are to hear Him, and Jesus saus to his disciples if they keep MY saying they shall keep yours ALSO, why? Because they would speak the same things, I just found its how you prove them out. But the apostles asked "brethren PRAY for US" and they too leave an example of how they too asked for prayer (from the brethren on earth) as Jesus said to, but theres nothing about praying to the departed.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Do people read the sources for what they're trying to prove?

"That it was actually composed by St. James the Less, as first Bishop of Jerusalem, is not now believed by any one"
newadvent.org

So, we're left with most scholars date it to 365ad. Far too late to be used to prove any sort of apostolic connection.

Some tend to read more than others, others much less and still others only read what they want to see.

A liturgy, for the non-Catholic is a very detailed running dialogue of the Mass of the Church; what the priest and people say/do for every service.

First of all we are speaking of a doc for which the oldest copy is close to 700 years older than what "most" date it's current form. "Form" here meaning what we have. What we have dates to the 9th century. (Gee I wonder what could have possibly changed in 700 years?) That we have those copies indicates it was still in use over 700 years after "most" are willing to date it.

And given the ability to say that something is at nearly 700 years older than the oldest copy is I think saying a lot. Saying even more the fact the exact same liturgy is still in use today in some places. So how much bigger a leap is it to go from 4th century back another 300 years to when St James is Bishop of Jerusalem.

BTW the same article quoted above also walks one through how this liturgy through the Eastern rites does reflect in some "form" that originally used locally by the Church in Jerusalem, which completes the connection back to Saint James.

So yeah, some people do read.

How about this one. Is there one liturgy from anywhere that does not call on saints/martyrs to pray for us?

 

[DrBubbaLove]

What are you talking about? The example you use says not to do it.

No! Ok, one more time
The Shepard does not come out and say not to ask saints/martyrs to pray for us, it pokes fun at the veneration of Saints, much like some here have done today.
You cannot make fun of something that people are not doing - ergo - when The Shepard was written the orthodox are venerating Saints which includes intersession and the Gnostics do not agree with that.



SEE POST 103 - THIS IS WHAT POSTING ON DRUGS DOES - I SAY HERMAS'S THE SHEPARD BUT AM TALKING ABOUT THE apocryphal acts of John quoted earlier - SORRY

 

[mmksparbud]

I tried to read all these, but I only skimmed so I could have missed this--just what do you all do with Ex 19:4 "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them nor serve them,....."
This is a commandment, not a suggestion--sooooo---what becomes of this??

 

[DrBubbaLove]

If you read it, you'll find the Angel telling him to go directly to the Lord for understanding and not use an intermediary.

" But you, having been strengthened by the holy Angel, and having obtained from Him such intercession, and not being slothful, why do not you ask of the Lord understanding, and receive it from Him? I said to him, Sir, having you with me, I am necessitated to ask questions of you, for you show me all things, and converse with me; but if I were to see or hear these things without you, I would then ask the Lord to explain them. "

Remember the context of Christianity---the veil is torn, one may go directly to the Lord/God now. In pagan or OT, there were intermediaries. Not so Christianity.

So, Hermas fails miserably and is in truth a witness against intercession of "angels"/"whatever".

I'll look at your other stuff as well.

Forgive me - am drugged out after knee surgery - sorry for the confusion - now I see how I lost you-
am mixing up references and your questions regarding them.

The Saint John reference is from the apocryphal acts of John I quoted several pages back - which is showing a gnostic view of veneration - a joke- which means the orthodox are venerating when the writer wrote that.

You are correct in The Shepard he is asked why not ask the Lord directly - and he answers he would have if the angel had not been available/answered him. It does not say he should NOT have asked the angel to intercede. The point of using this reference at all is it is showing intercession by a host in heaven on behalf of a request from earth.
It is not a slam dunk because it involves an angel - but it does illustrate the concept of intercession - again supporting that the orthodox are teaching asking/praying to someone in Heaven other than the Lord for help is not a foreign concept.

the rest of the chapter from THE SHEPART

"But you, having been strengthened by the holy Angel, and having obtained from Him such intercession, and not being slothful, why do not you ask of the Lord understanding, and receive it from Him? I said to him, Sir, having you with me, I am necessitated to ask questions of you, for you show me all things, and converse with me; but if I were to see or hear these things without you, I would then ask the Lord to explain them."

 

[Fireinfolding]

I tried to read all these, but I only skimmed so I could have missed this--just what do you all do with Ex 19:4 "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them nor serve them,....."
This is a commandment, not a suggestion--sooooo---what becomes of this??

Whats kool there too is how he names what not to make from where either, because in revelation it speaks of a beast that comes up out of the earth which speaks as a dragon, causing them to the worship the first beast that come out of the sea by saying make an image?

In the earth beneathe and in the water under the earth there too. Sorta ironic "the causing" them "to worship" is connected to "by saying" make an image too.

Though I was always curious as to why Dianna is mentioned like this, "whose image fell down from heaven"?

Anyone know where that come from, or what they meant by that?