What scriptures support praying to the saints?

[Fireinfolding]

How one could say that like repeating scripture would be a bad thing is beyond me, but as it was asked, yes:

Luke 1.48 - ...behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.

Repeating scripture isnt bad I repeat it all the time. Ususally people ignore it anyway unless it comes time to chant things for they strangest reasons. Its the angel's greeting to Mary (on earth) how on earth is it a prayer to Mary?

And

Luke 1:48 from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.

And so it come to pass just as Mary said...

Luke 11:27 And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked.

Luke 11:28 But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.

 

[Fireinfolding]

Well, if you ever need a job or some extra money you might google him.

Or just work for my own husband

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Repeating scripture isnt bad I repeat it all the time. Ususally people ignore it anyway unless it comes time to chant things for they strangest reasons. Its the angel's greeting to Mary (on earth) how on earth is it a prayer to Mary?

That would be the close of that prayer, which BTW must be the most frequently used of prayers to a Saint, just as the Catholics and EO brothers saying the Lord's Prayer has to be the most frequent use of that prayer;

"Pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen"

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Well, if you ever need a job or some extra money you might google him.

Or just work for my own husband Or just work for my own husband

I knew it

 

[Fireinfolding]

That would be the close of that prayer, which BTW must be the most frequently used of prayers to a Saint, just as the Catholics and EO brothers saying the Lord's Prayer has to be the most frequent use of that prayer;

"Pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen"

Greeting Mary is a salute not a prayer. A prayer is asking, not a greeting or salutation. As we are to salute or greet one another in Lord.

When they were stoning Stephen it says...

Acts 7:56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

Acts 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Well, no matter what one thinks, I do not see how it is possible to have the liturgy of the Church by the end of the 1st century including prayers to martyrs (which the Church has always held as Saints) without that being acceptable to the Apostles. We have zero objection recorded, yet there it is in a liturgical format which in many respect is unchanged for close to 2000 years. Am ok with that.

 

[Standing Up]

Well, no matter what one thinks, I do not see how it is possible to have the liturgy of the Church by the end of the 1st century including prayers to martyrs (which the Church has always held as Saints) without that being acceptable to the Apostles. We have zero objection recorded, yet there it is in a liturgical format which in many respect is unchanged for close to 2000 years. Am ok with that.

Okay. Let's go back and look again at your sources for this. We've already looked at Hermas and don't need to do that again.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

I will save some time, preempt the inevitable.

The oldest copy of a liturgy we have is ONLY around a thousand years old. Yet most everyone agrees we can safely say it represents something AT LEAST 700 years or so older. So some will say see you can only date it back to the "evil" "beginning" of the RCC in Rome, not to the Apostles. But that is not the whole story. It says nothing of what it takes to maintain in those days something that represents what people do on a regular basis in Mass for not just 700 years but also the next thousand because some places still use that exact liturgy today. Nor does it address to my ignorant mind the fact ALL the liturgies everywhere also look very similar to that one.

The reasons everyone agrees it can go back AT LEAST that far is that they can see obvious references to it and quotes from it at that time in other writings. But it is also evident/acknowledged that other versions of liturgies use some earlier form of this copy as a basis for what they were using (and some still using) in that same century. With clear indications that this "earlier" form dates back to the early first century Church in Jerusalem. And apparently when ALL these liturgies are compared there are differences, but those are typically very minor suggesting to many that the format is also very ancient. That format includes a section of an appeal to saints for their help praying for us - which is intercession - which is "praying" to saints. In this earlier form it apparently is an appeal to martyrs, which is later changed to saints. The appeal to martyrs is evident in late 1st century and early second writings.

So when wiki says the oldest liturgy - that of St James - from the Church in Jerusalem - is ONLY agreed by most to be dated back to the 4th century - that is not quite the whole story. But if some here find it a comfort to think wiki tells them not to worry that St James liturgy as a support for intercessory prayer cannot be sourced back to the Apostles because it was something fabricated by the RCC and simply called St James's to give the illusion of a connection, then so be it.

For me the fact all these ancient liturgies can be so similar (yes I know EO there are differences) AND also look similar to what is still practiced today says so much more than simply wanting complete assurance on verification of a single manuscript. You simply cannot have such universal conformity in such a detailed process suddenly spring up in the 3rd century as a completed work without there being a lot of ground work laid in the proceeding centuries.

Nor is possible to suggest that the level of care it takes to protect the sanctity of such a detailed liturgy for 700 years from the agreed upon "at least" as old date; which by the way means it was in constant use for those 700 years because they are still making copies 700 years later and that exact same liturgy is still in use today; to then suggest that this very meticulous care did not also extend in the other direction is hard for me to even imagine. There is nothing magical suggested or documented about the government recognizing the "new" religion which suddenly made them take such care in maintaining this degree of unity and order in their liturgies. If anything one would think the freedom would make things go the other way.

So when I say that if one denies this teaching of the Apostles, then one would also have to say that the clear evidence the early Church is praying to Saints must mean this "error" goes back to the 1st centuries. And as no Apostle is recorded speaking out what the Church would have to have been doing while they still walked those halls is beyond belief. To have such a detailed form in place by the end of century throughout the early Church, the "error" in teaching would have to be laid at the feet of the Apostles simply because they allowed it.

N D Kelly apparently may not go that far (to the Apostles) but clearly he sees from the 1st century forward intercessory prayer throughout the Church being taught. So it is not like Catholics alone hold this view of history.

 

[Standing Up]

I will save some time, preempt the inevitable.
-snip-
So when I say that if one denies this teaching of the Apostles, then one would also have to say that the clear evidence the early Church is praying to Saints must mean this "error" goes back to the 1st centuries. And as no Apostle is recorded speaking out what the Church would have to have been doing while they still walked those halls is beyond belief. To have such a detailed form in place by the end of century throughout the early Church, the "error" in teaching would have to be laid at the feet of the Apostles simply because they allowed it.

N D Kelly apparently may not go that far (to the Apostles) but clearly he sees from the 1st century forward intercessory prayer throughout the Church being taught. So it is not like Catholics alone hold this view of history.

So, when you say these things are apostolic, you can't really make the connection.

As far as apostles speaking out, when they had two perfect examples in James son of Zebedee and Stephen martyred, there's no mention at all about praying to them.

But this also begs the question, who were the first ones invoked? Mary, Peter, or a specific angel, or was it a general thing?

 

[DrBubbaLove]

So, when you say these things are apostolic, you can't really make the connection.

If by that you mean the writing of an Apostle including asking a martyr to pray for us?
No, but if the Church is doing that in the regular worship and it is not ok for them to be doing it, isn't it reasonable to conclude the Apostles would have said something about it?
It is not like some early Father suddenly came up with the notion, it is in the detailed liturgy. The form of which apparently is unchanged from the first century, and a form which includes a section invoking such prayer. Yet no Apostle speaking against it.

As far as apostles speaking out, when they had two perfect examples in James son of Zebedee and Stephen martyred, there's no mention at all about praying to them.

Except for the Revelation of John, which interestingly also includes these prayers in it's form (elders with prayers in urns) we do not have an Apostle giving us the liturgy.

We do have evidence that the martyrs were included in this liturgy and early Fathers speaking of it from the 1st century and non-Catholic theologians agreeing at least that much was so. Circumstantial in regards to the Apostles? Well sure if you discard what John says and how some people view his vision.

But this also begs the question, who were the first ones invoked? Mary, Peter, or a specific angel, or was it a general thing?

As Mary and Peter outlive the first martyrs of note and this practice is apparently pervasive by the end of the first century I doubt it was them.
In the first century Hermas is shown doing it with angels. The liturgy includes asking both, so including all heavenly hosts. So I would think it would have occurred to them to include all the hosts in Heaven when they included it in their regular worship. And given Apostles still living I cannot imagine a liturgy being used that did not meet their approval.

So to me it does not really matter if a particular saint is invoked first, the fact they were doing it and the Apostles endorsed it s enough.

 

[Fireinfolding]

So, when you say these things are apostolic, you can't really make the connection.

As far as apostles speaking out, when they had two perfect examples in James son of Zebedee and Stephen martyred, there's no mention at all about praying to them.

But this also begs the question, who were the first ones invoked? Mary, Peter, or a specific angel, or was it a general thing?

Its not in the gospel


Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

They teach and show praying to God

Phil 4:6 Be careful for nothing;but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.

Phil 4:9 Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you.
Just as it shows before (day and night)

Psalm 88:1 O LORD God of my salvation, I have cried day and night before thee:

1Ti 5:5 Now she that is a widow indeed, and desolate, trusteth in God, and continueth in supplications and prayers night and day.

2 Ti 1:3 I thank God, whom I serve from my forefathers with pure conscience, that without ceasing I have remembrance of thee in my prayers night and day;

Romans 15:30 Now I beseech you, brethren, for the Lord Jesus Christ's sake, and for the love of the Spirit, that ye strive together with me in your prayers to God for me;

Acts 12:5Peter therefore was kept in prison: but prayer was made without ceasing of the church unto God for him.

James 1:5If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

2Cr 1:7 In that night did God appear unto Solomon, and said unto him, Ask what I shall give thee.

2Cr 1:10 Give me now wisdom and knowledge, that I may go out and come in before this people: for who can judge this thy people, that is so great?

2Cr 1:12 Wisdom and knowledge is granted unto thee...

James 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

Mat 7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

Not receiving from God...

James 4:3 Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.

As he said to Solomon...

2Ch 1:11 And God said to Solomon,Because this was in thine heart, and thou hast not asked riches, wealth, or honour, nor the life of thine enemies, neither yet hast asked long life; but hast asked wisdom and knowledge for thyself, that thou mayest judge my people, over whom I have made thee king:

2Cr 1:12 Wisdom and knowledge is granted unto thee

He granted him more then that, which none other after him ever recieved, but he didnt ask amiss. At least it shows there is an "asking amiss". And also... "ye have not because ye ask not" too

James 1:6-7 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.

There are tons of examples

 

[Fireinfolding]

Well, no matter what one thinks, I do not see how it is possible to have the liturgy of the Church by the end of the 1st century including prayers to martyrs (which the Church has always held as Saints) without that being acceptable to the Apostles. We have zero objection recorded, yet there it is in a liturgical format which in many respect is unchanged for close to 2000 years. Am ok with that.

Error would then be acceptable if there is no recorded objection outside of the example scripture? But isnt there a record contained to the seven churches Jesus adreses where they (even then) were suffering error without objection? Unless you believe them all of them to be without error even though Jesus Himself raises objection (to their own lack of objection)? Because He seems to note more then a few of them suffering error without objection (wherein He raises it). And He commends one of the churches for trying those who professed to be apostles and found them liars. Even as Paul commends them to the proving all things. Just as he said "its not he who commended himself but whom the Lord commendeth". I suppose I get that because lots of folks can commend themselves to you, folks do that all the time. No one ever says, "I am false" but "I am true" but we know He is true (so let every man be a liar and God be true) is the best call. God has power to make something clear to another (Just as He had done to Lydia) to tend to the apostles words, He never changes.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Firenfolding,
As you quote more than the Gospels, why exclude the last book of the Bible?

Would this be because there those that would do see connections made between John's vision and the liturgy - which includes reference to saints in heaven having our prayers?

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Error would then be acceptable if there is no recorded objection outside of the example scripture? But isnt there a record contained to the seven churches Jesus adreses where they (even then) were suffering error without objection? Unless you believe them all of them to be without error even though Jesus Himself raises objection (to their own lack of objection)? Because He seems to note more then a few of them suffering error without objection (wherein He raises it). And He commends one of the churches for trying those who professed to be apostles and found them liars. Even as Paul commends them to the proving all things. Just as he said "its not he who commended himself but whom the Lord commendeth". I suppose I get that because lots of folks can commend themselves to you, folks do that all the time. No one ever says, "I am false" but "I am true" but we know He is true (so let every man be a liar and God be true) is the best call. God has power to make something clear to another (Just as He had done to Lydia) to tend to the apostles words, He never changes.

Assume the reference to Jesus speaking to Churches here would be John's vision, which in itself is seen by some as laying out the form of the liturgy of the Church including showing saints in heaven having our prayers, which as I keep saying (and many theologians agree) was part of the early Church liturgy.

Am not sure how to conclude from the fact that throughout scripture, in the early Church and also in the writings of the Fathers we have people being corrected for errors that this one allegedly obvious "error" would escape the notice of everyone.

 

[Standing Up]

-snip-
So to me it does not really matter if a particular saint is invoked first, the fact they were doing it and the Apostles endorsed it s enough.

I mean first in historical references, not first in the prayer itself.

Isn't the sub tuum (sic?) to "Mary" considered one of the first?

 

[Standing Up]

Assume the reference to Jesus speaking to Churches here would be John's vision, which in itself is seen by some as laying out the form of the liturgy of the Church including showing saints in heaven having our prayers, which as I keep saying (and many theologians agree) was part of the early Church liturgy.

Am not sure how to conclude from the fact that throughout scripture, in the early Church and also in the writings of the Fathers we have people being corrected for errors that this one allegedly obvious "error" would escape the notice of everyone.

Just to be clear, what "error" exactly? Asking the deceased in Christ to pray for us or what?

 

[Fireinfolding]

Firenfolding,

As you quote more than the Gospels, why exclude the last book of the Bible?

Would this be because there those that would do see connections made between John's vision and the liturgy - which includes reference to saints in heaven having our prayers?

Where? You mean the similitude of incense?

Mal 1:11 For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts.

Psalm 141:2 Let my prayer be set forth before thee as incense


Isaiah 9:6 ...his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Even as incense shall be offered unto my name


Mat 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven,

Again...

Psalm 141:2 Let my prayer be set forth before thee as incense

You mean here...

Rev 8:4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.

The offering up of incense as prayer or any offering must be unto the Lord

Judges 13:16 And the angel of the LORD said unto Manoah, Though thou detain me, I will not eat of thy bread: and if thou wilt offer a burnt offering, thou must offer it unto the LORD. For Manoah knew not that he was an angel of the LORD.


Judges 13:17 And Manoah said unto the angel of the LORD, What is thy name, that when thy sayings come to pass we may do thee honour?


Judges 13:18 And the angel of the LORD said unto him,Why askest thou thus after my name, seeing it is secret?

Example in John worshipping before angel forbidden as well...

Rev 22:8And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.


Rev 22:9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

Whether man or angel...

Acts 10:25 And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him.

Acts 10:26 But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man.

And also the brasen serpent which actually healed them (which is type of Christ) and when they used what God told Moses to make and burned incense to it, this is what Hezekiah did here...

2Kings 18:4 He removed the high places, and brake the images, and cut down the groves, and brake in pieces the brasen serpent that Moses had made: for unto those days the children of Israel did burn incense to it: and he called it Nehushtan. (and God said he did right)

Whereas even Jesus says...

John 16:26 At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:

Again...

Mat 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven,

Gal 4:6 God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying,Abba, Father. (its by Him we offer spiritual sacrifices pleasing to God) in Spirit and in truth

They were told not to burn incense, nor pray or cry out to others constistently

Jerm 44:18 But since we left off to burn incense to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, we have wanted all things, and have been consumed by the sword and by the famine.

Jerm 11:12 Then shall the cities of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem go, and cry unto the gods unto whom they offer incense: but they shall not save them at all in the time of their trouble.

Again, the law having a "shadow of" being figures of the true

Psalm 141:2 Let my prayer be set forth before thee as incense.


Their own understanding caused them to fashion into idols like the golden calf (as the blood of calfs) were as representaties of the true but not the true. For example here...

Heb 9:23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

Heb 9:19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,


Heb 13:2 And now they sin more and more, and have made them molten images of their silver, [and] idolsaccording to their own understanding, all of it the work of the craftsmen: they say of them, Let the men that sacrifice kiss the calves.


Exodus 32:4 And he received them at their hand, and fashioned it with a graving tool, after he had made it a molten calf: and they said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.


Those figures made them abominations (according to their own understanding) whereas....

Heb 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, [which are] the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:


Heb 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

Hosea 14:2 Take with you words, and turn to the LORD: say unto him, Take away all iniquity, and receive us graciously: so will we render the calves of our lips.


John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

So now (by Him) who cometh to give us an understanding...


Heb 3:15 By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name.

The former ignorance (God forgave) there was a way that seemed right to them (according to thier own understanding) seeing it aright is seeing it in Spirit and in truth, In Christ (that we can walk in understanding) and worship Him in Spirit and truth (likewise)

Wheres this verse take you?

1Cr 10:7Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.

 

[Fireinfolding]

Assume the reference to Jesus speaking to Churches here would be John's vision, which in itself is seen by some as laying out the form of the liturgy of the Church including showing saints in heaven having our prayers, which as I keep saying (and many theologians agree) was part of the early Church liturgy.

Am not sure how to conclude from the fact that throughout scripture, in the early Church and also in the writings of the Fathers we have people being corrected for errors that this one allegedly obvious "error" would escape the notice of everyone.

Nothing in the past could show such a thing

[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']Jerm 44:17 But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of [inserts oral] our own mouth, to burn incense unto the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as [insert tradition] we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes, in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem[end of tradition] for then had we plenty of victuals, and were well, and saw no evil.

Mat 7:9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

But as I keep saying, these are not "my own". While not apparent to all here, these are traditions clearly passed down from the first century forward. Scripture itself in the NT allows for it, so I have every reason to believe the testimony of the Church now and through the witness of these Fathers that it is so.

That you reject it as traditions of men I get. I used to. What I never get is people saying it is error created by "Rome" when quite clearly if they want to believe it to be error it has to have started nearly 400 years earlier at the very beginning of the Churches, even while some of the Apostles still walked among them.

Also difficult for me to fathom how one determines now which traditions "of men" to follow and which to not, because the same men that gave us the ones we hold in common also gave us the rest. And in large part many are following this subset of traditions carved from the larger older list by men more recently.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

I mean first in historical references, not first in the prayer itself.

Isn't the sub tuum (sic?) to "Mary" considered one of the first?

No, as I said Mary is still alive when these liturgies are first formed. She is not a Saint at that point.
So the first historical reference is by inference that the earliest forms of the liturgy contained several prayers (including the Our Father) and requests for prayer for the whole world, and at some point in the first century, included in that prayer request for the whole world is an explicit request to the martyrs to pray for us; which later becomes Saints rather than excluding it to only asking those Saints who died in a particular manner.

The first documented (as in we have a copy of it) reference of the idea of host in Heaven interceding on our behalf is Hermas's "The Shepard". The concepts go hand in hand even though his help is from an angel.