What scriptures support praying to the saints?

[DrBubbaLove]

Standup,
Sorry again for all the confusion.
You asked earlier for a quote from St Clement - saints interceding in prayer with the Christian "praying alone"

"So is he always pure for prayer. He also prays in the society of angels, as being already of angelic rank, and he is never out of their holy keeping; and though he pray alone, he has the choir of the saints standing with him."

middle part of chapter 12 or just do a find on choir
CHURCH FATHERS: The Stromata (Clement of Alexandria)

 

[DrBubbaLove]

I tried to read all these, but I only skimmed so I could have missed this--just what do you all do with Ex 19:4 "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them nor serve them,....."
This is a commandment, not a suggestion--sooooo---what becomes of this??

That is a good question and related I guess in that the icons, cards and statues..etc are related to the "communion of saints"/their intercession for us. Why are these things not forbidden by this command?

I would note God also had the Israelites make images of things, things used in fact as symbols and parts of the worship/honoring God. So from the beginning am not sure a blanket application of "no images" period is warranted in following this command. And certainly there must be something to be said with what is being done with these images. The Israelites did not bow to or serve those images, but they had them none the less. So just not having any image in itself cannot be the object of this command.

The command is also associated with giving the honor and worship owed to God; and giving that to God alone and to nothing or no one else ('for God is Jealous"). I guess the question arises then is asking someone believed to be Heaven or at least with the Lord) an example of overstepping this command.

As a person should not be asking anyone to pray for them without it also being implied that everyone, including the person asking for prayer, is also asking/seeking praying to the Lord. Yes we should pray to God and we all do that. But we are also told to pray for each other (to God is implied). We view a proper prayer to a Saint as no different in that regard, we are asking them to pray for us to God. The Hail Mary is one such prayer and ends asking Mary to pray for us (to God is implied).

One standard posture of prayer is head bowed, another on one's knees. While both postures may look like bowing it does not follow that the whatever happens to be in front of the person at that moment is being "worshipped". It is a common posture assumed during prayer.

So if we are in that manner "bowing" (head bowed or on our knees) before a statue or picture of a Saint, asking them to pray for us is that equivalent to giving honor or worship owed to God alone to that Saint. I do not see it.

 

[Standing Up]

Standup,
Sorry again for all the confusion.
You asked earlier for a quote from St Clement - saints interceding in prayer with the Christian "praying alone"

"So is he always pure for prayer. He also prays in the society of angels, as being already of angelic rank, and he is never out of their holy keeping; and though he pray alone, he has the choir of the saints standing with him."

middle part of chapter 12 or just do a find on choir
CHURCH FATHERS: The Stromata (Clement of Alexandria)

No problem. Be well. Talk later.

 

[mmksparbud]

The things God asked for were not being worshiped--nobody was bowing down to them or serving them. "The dead know not anything"Ecc 9:5--how can you ask someone who knows nothing to pray for you--We do not even ask angels to pray for us. We pray for each other--we pray to God. The jews did not worship or pray to the ark or to the seraphim on top of the ark. Paul was horrified that some people bowed to them--he said do not do it, they were men as they were. Jesus is our intercessor with God--a live person is praying for us--not the dead.
There is no scripture that says we are to ask the dead to pray for us.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

The things God asked for were not being worshiped--nobody was bowing down to them or serving them. "The dead know not anything"Ecc 9:5--how can you ask someone who knows nothing to pray for you--We do not even ask angels to pray for us. We pray for each other--we pray to God. The jews did not worship or pray to the ark or to the seraphim on top of the ark. Paul was horrified that some people bowed to them--he said do not do it, they were men as they were. Jesus is our intercessor with God--a live person is praying for us--not the dead.
There is no scripture that says we are to ask the dead to pray for us.

I said and agree they did NOT bow to those things. It was mentioned to show that obviously the command was not just a blanket - "have ZERO images" period as some today would have it.
The Saints are very much alive and am certain happy to continue doing something they excelled at in this life.

Jesus, the Word, is the intermediary between the world and God and our Redeemer. He is also our intercessor and mediator. In those roles He is not replaced or supplanted by anyone.

As all of us allow people we know to pray for us, when they do that, it is an act of intercession for us. They are interceding on our behalf when they pray for us to God. And scripture clearly says we are suppose to do that. When this is done, these intercessions are secondary to what Jesus does for the whole world.

The question then are the Saints who we would argue are very much alive, properly able to continue interceding in this manner (prayer) for us as they did when they walked this earth.

Luk 20:36-38 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection. Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.​

So they are alive. But can we talk with them (in prayer)?

Matt 17.3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
​

We would say if Jesus is our example having lived the perfect life of a Man here, then there must be nothing wrong with talking to departed Saints. We certainly cannot say Jesus, as a Man, broke the commandments of God by speaking with Saints.

Where does scripture indicate we can go with Jesus as our mediator?

Heb 12.22-24 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than [that of] Abel.​

So in our approach to God in prayer we can go to an innumerable company of angels and spirits of just men (Saints) AND to Jesus the mediator.

So for us anyway it is not a matter of choosing to either pray to Jesus alone or the Saints, but being able to ask all the Heavenly Hosts for prayer.

 

[Fireinfolding]

So they are alive. But can we talk with them (in prayer)?

Matt 17.3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
​

It was a vision, Jesus charged them on it too

Mat 17:9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.


If you look at the scenario, of Moses and Elijah standing with Him they speaking of His decease, the two represent the law (Moses) and the prophets (Elijah) which "bear witness" to Christ. This is what Peter mentions in his epsitles...of those before which bore witness to "the sufferings of Christ" (ie "speaking of his decease") a vision also as the words of the book are called "the vision of all" (and Christ) "the effect" of every vision". To tell no man the vision UNTIL he was raised from the dead (where He is "declared the Son of God with power by the resurrection from the dead" is pointing out what they testified of... "the righteousness of God (Christ) WITHOUT the law BEING WITNESSED BY ""the law"" (Moses) and "the prophets"" (Elijah). Then when Peter wanted to build tabernacles to them came the voice of the Father said this is my Son hear ye Him they looked up they saw NO MAN save Jesus only WITH THEM. Which again speaks of ... in the times beforehand God spake by the prophets but in these last days by His Son.

So in the vision its not speaking of praying to the dead its a revelation of Jesus Christ showing the law (Moses) and the prophets (Elijah) called "the vision of all" (speaking of His decease in Jerusalem he would accomplish. And when he charged not to tell until after the SON OF MAN rises from the dead because he is "declared the SON OF GOD" by the very same thing. But to pull one verse out and justify praying to the dead is not being honest with the scriptures. But we can see how they spake of this experience in a whole other way,and Christ being "the effect" of every vision (the law and the prophets) in that sense.
​

We would say if Jesus is our example having lived the perfect life of a Man here, then there must be nothing wrong with talking to departed Saints. We certainly cannot say Jesus, as a Man, broke the commandments of God by speaking with Saints.

Mat 17:4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.

Its just human nature to do this

Mat 17:15 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

Where does scripture indicate we can go with Jesus as our mediator?

Heb 12.22-24 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than [that of] Abel.
​

So in our approach to God in prayer we can go to an innumerable company of angels and spirits of just men (Saints) AND to Jesus the mediator.

So for us anyway it is not a matter of choosing to either pray to Jesus alone or the Saints, but being able to ask all the Heavenly Hosts for prayer.

The angels worship him

Heb 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

Even Jesus said...

Mat 26:52 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?

He didnt pray to them (angels) but the Father who had charge over the same.

Col 2:18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,

 

[Standing Up]

It was a vision, Jesus charged them on it too

Mat 17:9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.


If you look at the scenario, of Moses and Elijah standing with Him they speaking of His decease, the two represent the law (Moses) and the prophets (Elijah) which "bear witness" to Christ. This is what Peter mentions in his epsitles...of those before which bore witness to "the sufferings of Christ" (ie "speaking of his decease") a vision also as the words of the book are called "the vision of all" (and Christ) "the effect" of every vision". To tell no man the vision UNTIL he was raised from the dead (where He is "declared the Son of God with power by the resurrection from the dead" is pointing out what they testified of... "the righteousness of God (Christ) WITHOUT the law BEING WITNESSED BY ""the law"" (Moses) and "the prophets"" (Elijah). Then when Peter wanted to build tabernacles to them came the voice of the Father said this is my Son hear ye Him they looked up they saw NO MAN save Jesus only WITH THEM. Which again speaks of ... in the times beforehand God spake by the prophets but in these last days by His Son.

So in the vision its not speaking of praying to the dead its a revelation of Jesus Christ showing the law (Moses) and the prophets (Elijah) called "the vision of all" (speaking of His decease in Jerusalem he would accomplish. And when he charged not to tell until after the SON OF MAN rises from the dead because he is "declared the SON OF GOD" by the very same thing. But to pull one verse out and justify praying to the dead is not being honest with the scriptures. But we can see how they spake of this experience in a whole other way,and Christ being "the effect" of every vision (the law and the prophets) in that sense.
​

Mat 17:4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.

Its just human nature to do this

Mat 17:15 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.




The angels worship him

Heb 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

Even Jesus said...

Mat 26:52 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?

He didnt pray to them (angels) but the Father who had charge over the same.

Col 2:18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,

Interesting. Then as mentioned earlier with Hermas, the angel told him he could go directly to the Lord. It's weird that it's out there in the open, but can't be seen by some.

 

[Fireinfolding]

Interesting. Then as mentioned earlier with Hermas, the angel told him he could go directly to the Lord. It's weird that it's out there in the open, but can't be seen by some.

Yes, sounds like a good angel then

Like it says here...

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Then he says...

Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

So he speaks as from themselves and/ or an angel from heaven preaching anything other then what he preached to them. Jesus has all power, angels being subject to him, so even though there is one mediator between God and man, is says...

Gal 3:20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.


Just as it speaks of the law given of angels IN the HAND OF a mediator, so the mediator is not a mediator OF one, but God IS one. The angels are IN HIS HAND (hand of a mediator) which are ministering spirits sent to the heirs. Even as Jesus said I have sent mine angel. Speaks of HORNS OUT of HIS HAND and the "hiding of his power" (there) etc. But theres more to it then a casual glance yanked out and concluding ...hey look at this verse seems to indicate "I can pray to saints or angels" (type thing).

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Interesting. Then as mentioned earlier with Hermas, the angel told him he could go directly to the Lord. It's weird that it's out there in the open, but can't be seen by some.

You have to read the whole story.
Actually the angel asked why he did not go directly to the Lord for an explanation and he answered that he would have gone to the Lord had the angel not been there for him to ask.

The point of bringing up this quote from the Shepard is to show they saw nothing wrong with having an angel being asked (talk/pray to) for something.

 

[mmksparbud]

There was Enoch, Elijah, and Moses--Moses being the only one that died and then the angels came to get him and Satan was contesting, but the angels said--the Lord rebuke you--and took Moses. Then there were the ones that were resurrected when Christ arose--other than that--the dead know not anything. Ps 88:10 Wilt thou show wonders to the dead? Shall the dead arise and praise thee? Ps 115:17 The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence. Matt 22:32 I am the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. 1 Thess 4:16 For the Lord shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first." Christ will ressurect the dead when He comes--not in secret--with a shout and a trumpet and the voice of the archangel--it will be loud and obvious--till then, they "sleep--as Jesus said Lazarus was sleeping and as Jesus said the 12 yr old child was sleeping (both were dead).

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Am not sure how we can say we do not know much about the dead, which true, yet still be certain that they are sleeping.

The OT dead, wherever they were, are not depicted as sleeping. Granted "sleeping", "rest" "eternal sleep"..etc are common euphemism for death and terms describing coming out of sleep connected to the resurrection of the body. A person without a body has lost the 5 senses for which we presently experience our reality, which includes our perception of what appears to us as a linear passage of time.

Clearly God is outside of time. Less clear to all of us would be what a person after death experiences including how they experience what we call time. If near death experiences are any help, the perception of time is definitely different. Some have even suggested that since all of time is laid out before God that our prayers are effective not just in the now and future, but also for the past. I dunno, but it would be hard for me to rule that or many things out as possibilities since we really do not have much to go on here.

Jesus first replied "sleep" for Lazarus then later said he is dead, so am not sure how that example should help us conclude the Saints cannot hear us because they are "sleeping". Certainly without needing to, Jesus talked directly to the dead man when He summoned him back.

Jesus also talked with some Saints in front of several living witnesses. From that I think we can surmise what the Church has always taught in this regard, that the dead are "aware", they can hear us, they can "appear" and from Jesus's example it is ok to talk to them.

 

[mmksparbud]

So---why was Saul under condemnation for bringing up Samuel and talking to him? 1 Chron 10:13--

 

[mathetes123]

Ex: "Pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death."

The request is to a Saint, asking them to pray TO God for us, on our behalf. That is the definition of intercessory prayer. The only difference between this request and asking others is the Saint is already in our Lord's presence. It is called a "prayer" because of the nature of the communication, but that does not change the fact that the intention is to have that person pray UNTO God for us. It is a very special prayer request. If the Saint were standing next to us, it would be no different than just asking them to remember us in their prayers.

Jesus is the only mediator between man and God, not dead saints, Not Mary, not priests and not the Pope.

 

[Fireinfolding]

So---why was Saul under condemnation for bringing up Samuel and talking to him? 1 Chron 10:13--

Because of witchypoo

 

[Standing Up]

Yes, sounds like a good angel then

Like it says here...

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Then he says...

Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

So he speaks as from themselves and/ or an angel from heaven preaching anything other then what he preached to them. Jesus has all power, angels being subject to him, so even though there is one mediator between God and man, is says...

Gal 3:20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.


Just as it speaks of the law given of angels IN the HAND OF a mediator, so the mediator is not a mediator OF one, but God IS one. The angels are IN HIS HAND (hand of a mediator) which are ministering spirits sent to the heirs. Even as Jesus said I have sent mine angel. Speaks of HORNS OUT of HIS HAND and the "hiding of his power" (there) etc. But theres more to it then a casual glance yanked out and concluding ...hey look at this verse seems to indicate "I can pray to saints or angels" (type thing).

That Gal 3:20 is a powerful testimony to the deity of Christ Jesus.

Given that some angels deceive, dressed in light, given we may go directly to God, given the angel spoke the same to Hermas who apparently refused the advice, its clear to me what we should and should not do in the house of God.

 

[Fireinfolding]

That Gal 3:20 is a powerful testimony to the deity of Christ Jesus.

Given that some angels deceive, dressed in light, given we may go directly to God, given the angel spoke the same to Hermas who apparently refused the advice, its clear to me what we should and should not do in the house of God.

Yeah, Gees, Jesus is the way, how come folks seem to make other ways to justify? And For what reason? Whats wrong with what Jesus plainly said? In my name to the Father.

Why would anyone want to go to anyone else or even an angel in heaven? He is who we are recconciled to, other nations called on others (whether they believe them to be in heaven or not) so why start a tradition and be as nations which are called pagans in doing that?

 

[Fireinfolding]

So---why was Saul under condemnation for bringing up Samuel and talking to him? 1 Chron 10:13--

Thats a good one, I'll post a little for lurkers

Isaiah 8:9 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?


1Sam 28:3 Now Samuel was dead, and all Israel had lamented him, and buried him in Ramah, even in his own city. And Saul had put away those that had familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land.

A little later, in his desparation (God not answering him anymore) as he confesses (later) to Samuel. But now He tries to get to Samuel (to know what to do)

1Sam 28:8 And Saul disguised himself, and put on other raiment, and he went, and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night: and he said, I pray thee, divine unto me by the familiar spirit, and bring me him up, whom I shall name unto thee.

So it goes...

1Sam 1:28 Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel.

A little backround...

1Sam9:9 (Beforetime in Israel, when a man went to enquire of God, thus he spake, Come, and let us go to the seer: for he that is now called a Prophet was beforetime called a Seer)

1Sam 28:3 Now Samuel was dead,

Saul wasnt enquiring (of her) after just anyone, but a prophet of the LORD (by the which) God (at that time) when men enquired (of them) was heard by them, and so continues...

1Sam 28:13 And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.

1Sam 28:14 And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.

1Sam 28:15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up?

And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.

Samuels response...

1Sam 28:16 Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the LORD is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy?

What more could Samuel do for him if this be the case?

Whereas it later it says...

1Cr 10:13 So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, [even] against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it;

 

[DrBubbaLove]

So---why was Saul under condemnation for bringing up Samuel and talking to him? 1 Chron 10:13--

The verse says Samuel was punished for many transgressions, including disobeying the Lord (he did not destroy the Amalekites for example) AND also for asking witchces to summon Samuel so he could ask him what to do (instead of asking the Lord for guidance).

Prayers to Saints does not involve witches or seeking anyone that claims to be able to conjour up the dead in order to gain hidden knowledge (that only the dead would know) or knowledg of future events...etc. Practices clearly forbidden by commandments from God and clearly something the King God has installed over His People should NOT be doing and he knew it.

How we can say such acts equate to our asking the Mother of God to "pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death"(to the Lord)?

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Jesus is the only mediator between man and God, not dead saints, Not Mary, not priests and not the Pope.

The Saints are not dead, And we all go through one Mediator when we pray for others, that is called intercessory prayer. To pray to God on someone else's behalf. The Saints in Heaven are doing nothing more than what we do, and they did while we are down here.

 

[whitetiger1]

Jesus is the only mediator between man and God, not dead saints, Not Mary, not priests and not the Pope.

Then don't ever ask another another person to pray for you. The Saints are more alive than we who are stuck on Earth