What saves a person?

[Bible Highlighter]

No it's not.

Christians are saved, they cannot sin. If they do sin, then they ask for forgiveness.

You have a strange theology, sinners must die mentality. Given that you sin yourself, it is difficult for me to understand how you do that?

After we are saved by God's grace,
God’s works (done through us) are also required as a part of the Salvation Process:

(Here are a List of Verses):


“Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).

"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.” (James 2:17-18).

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, "(1 Timothy 6:3-4).

"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).

"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? (Romans 6:1-2).

"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).

"Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).

“...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).

"If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha." (1 Corinthians 16:22).

"If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).

“If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.” (John 15:10).

"And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me." (Matthew 10:38).

”If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? (Matthew 16:24-26).

"...No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God." (Luke 9:62).

“Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.” (Matthew 5:8).

"Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21).

"But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).

”And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.” (Revelation 22:12-15).

"For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." (John 3:20).

“For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).

"...but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:17).

“Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” (Philippians 2:12).

“...And having become servants of God, ye have your fruit unto holiness and the end, everlasting life.” (Romans 6:22).

”Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.” (Matthew 25:34-40).

“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” (Matthew 25:41-46).

”His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.” (Matthew 25:21).

”And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 25:30).

”Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation [i.e. as the people of Israel did when they rebelled against him in the desert.”] (Hebrews 3:12-15) (Note: The explanation on verse 15 in brackets is taken from the Living Bible Translation (TLB)).

”Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)” (Hebrews 3:10-11).

”Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. (Hebrews 4:11).

“In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).

“He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God” (John 8:47).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

If a person can take 5 verses in my above list and offer me a word for word commentary so as to defend their idea that they can sin and still be saved on some level by having a belief alone on Jesus, I would greatly appreciate it.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

"And his mercy is on them that fear him from generation to generation."
(Luke 1:50).

 

[KDB47]

We can have the Spirit of the Son within us, but we are not saved as a child of God until we believe and repent to be forgiven and cleansed of unrighteousness to pass from death until life.
Someone who chooses to willfully practice unrighteousness has not been saved, even if they believe. They SHALL BE saved, but have not yet been saved until they come to repentance.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Faith on the finished work of Christ alone is what saves. It's true it's so simple that even a child could understand it, yet we have adults determined to make it more complicated than Jesus ever intended it to be.

Thank you Jesus for saving me!

Then why did Jesus say if you will enter into life, keep the commandments? (See Matthew 19:17). Please keep in mind that the end of Matthew 19 was not a point about how we cannot keep His commandments but it was a point of forsaking things as a part of everlasting life. In fact, the disciples were able to forsake all to follow Jesus. Yet, we learn in Luke 19:1-10 that Zacchaeus was willing to just give away half of his goods and Jesus said salvation has come to his house that day. So if salvation was all about the finished work of the cross, then why would Jesus seem to imply the exact opposite by teaching salvation by works of faith?

Granted, I am not saying we can be saved by Works Alone Salvationism. I am saying we have to first repent and believe in Jesus as our Savior and then follow Him. For if we are not following Jesus, then we are making ourselves out to be our own masters. Jesus says you cannot serve two masters. Do you believe Him when He says this?

 

[Neostarwcc]

Salvation is by grace through faith; and that not of ourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast (Ephesians 2:8-9).

It is not by works of righteousness which we have done (Titus 3:4-7).

The righteousness of God is imputed to us apart from works (Romans 4:1-8).

Grace and works are mutually exclusive when it comes to salvation (Romans 11:5-6).

But faith in what? The gospel? Trusting the Lord to save us? Or both?

 

[Neostarwcc]

It seems to me that you are saying that we must be absolutely perfect in order to be saved.

For if being a serial killer is the same as all other sins, then if we commit any sin, it is on the level of mass murder and therefore we would be put in hell for doing it.

We would have to be made absolutely perfect in order to be saved; and therefore if we were somehow made perfect but then later sinned; we messed up; we would no longer be saved; we would have to start all over again. The minutest sin would put us out of the kingdom.

In such a scenario, salvation is not through forgiveness of sins through faith in the blood of Jesus but is based on becoming worthy of heaven whether we are forgiven or not. We would be accepted on the basis of being worthy and our former sins wouldn't matter even if they weren't forgiven because our current state is perfection and therefore it doesn't matter what we did in the past. But if we commit some minute sin in the present or the future after having been perfected, then we are in a load of deep doo-doo because now we are no longer worthy of heaven. So if we die in that state we have now been separated from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord, through things present or things to come.

And this is simply not biblical.

'nuff said!

But isn't that the requirement to get into heaven? Perfection? That is why we are born again so that our spirits can become sinless to enter heaven and then when Christ returns we are given new perfect bodies. So that we will never sin against God again. Perfection isn't required in this life because we still have a body that sins but it is required to be in Gods presence. Otherwise, great post.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

But faith in what? The gospel? Trusting the Lord to save us? Or both?

I am reminded of this verse.

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven" (Matthew 7:21).

Obviously the person in this verse above believed in Jesus, because they called out to Him, "Lord, Lord" but Jesus says that is not enough, He says that he that does the will of the Father shall enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.

We read in 1 Thessalonians 4:3 this.

"For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication" (KJV).

"God's will is for you to be holy, so stay away from all sexual sin." (NLT).

This lines up later with what Jesus says in Matthew 7:23 when he told those believers who did wonderful works to depart from Him because they worked iniquity (sin).

To drive this point home even more, Jesus says that anyone who does NOT DO what He says is like a fool who built his house upon the sand and when a storm came, great was the fall of that house (See Matthew 7:26-27).

So the Bible is clear. It is not a mere profession of faith or a belief on Jesus that will save a person. A person has to have works of faith as a part of their faith to be genuine or true. For faith without works is dead (James 2:17).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

But isn't that the requirement to get into heaven? Perfection? That is why we are born again so that our spirits can become sinless to enter heaven and then when Christ returns we are given new perfect bodies. So that we will never sin against God again. Perfection isn't required in this life because we still have a body that sins but it is required to be in Gods presence. Otherwise, great post.

The Bible does not say we have to be perfect (generically speaking) in order to enter the Kingdom of God. The only two instances I see where the word "perfect" is used in relation to salvation is in certain behaviors. One in Matthew 19 and the other in James 3. In Matthew 19: Jesus says to be perfect to the rich man (Which is a part of forsaking things that is a part of everlasting life). For the problem was in the rich man building up riches for himself and not in trusting in God. For most agree that prosperity teachers today are not teaching God's Word correctly. But we also see in Luke 19:1-10 that Zacchaeus did not give away all his goods, but he only was willing to give half away and yet Jesus said salvation had come to his house. So obviously forsaking all things is a matter of the heart and what one considers the basic needs in loving God and loving others (And not an obvious excess of wealth where people would consider them to be rich).

As for James 3: James says a perfect man (i.e. a perfect aspect of a man of God) does not offend in word (James 3:2). Jesus says we can be condemned by our words (See Matthew 12:37). So while being a perfect man in this aspect is not a salvation issue exactly, it will help to prevent a person from being condemned by their words.

But being "perfect" generally speaking is not something the Bible says we have to attain in order to attain salvation. So saying that none of us can be perfect because the Bible says we have to be perfect to be saved, therefore: We need a belief alone on the finish work of the cross to be saved is not simply true. That is something other people here are inventing (or adding to the BIble) because they like the easy path and not the narrow way. A belief alone in Jesus will not save a person. They also need to exhibit that their faith is true or genuine by their actions (or works of faith). For Paul says in Titus 1:16 that a person can deny God by their works.

The Bible does teach that grievous sin can separate a person from God if it is not repented of (See Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, Matthew 25:31-46, 1 John 3:15).

 

[aiki]

If Eternal Security was true, I would go back to my old life of sin.

I think this is really at the heart of all of Jason0047's ideas about works-salvation and eternal security. He has yet to discover the incredible power of love as a motivator for righteous living, for obedience to God. He is afraid of grace, of the liberty that is in Christ. Such fear does not originate with God, however. The apostle John made this clear:

1 John 4:16-19
16 And we have known and believed the love that God has to us. God is love; and he who dwells in love dwells in God, and God in him.
17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear: because fear has torment. He who fears is not made perfect in love.
19 We love him, because he first loved us.

Jason0047 is using the fear of lost salvation as a goad to good deeds. His love for God is so weak that without the fear-goad he would dive right back into sin. This sounds to me like he loves his sin more than he loves his Saviour.

The problem with the fear motive, though, is that God doesn't accept obedience that arises out of fear. This is because the motivation of fear is not God-centered but Self-centered. It is Self that fears eternal damnation; it is Self that acts in obedience to God's commands in order to protect itself. And so we read in Scripture that God will not accept this sort of "obedience" but only those good, God-honoring deeds that arise out of a love for Him:

1 Corinthians 13:1-3
1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal.
2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing.

Everyone would eventually do that because there is no incentive to live right for God if you can just simply sin and still be saved.

This is just so wrong! And it reveals how little Jason0047 knows about walking in love with God. I used to practice a martial art; did so for nearly thirty years. The training was often painful, exhausting, expensive, time-consuming, frustrating, and tedious. I suffered countless bruises, cuts, some dislocation of fingers and toes, and broken teeth. Why? Why would I do something that was so arduous and unpleasant? Why would I do something that cost me so much? The answer is: Love. I loved the training. Despite its hardships, the training was a delight to me, a joy. Because I loved it. I would not have done the same out of a motive of fear or obligation.

The same holds true in my relationship with God. He requires me to "take up my cross daily" and die to myself (Matthew 16:24-26); He calls me to suffering and persecution for His name's sake (Matthew 5:10; John 15:20); He demands of me a life of yieldedness and submission to Him (Romans 6:13; Romans 12:1; James 4:6-7; 1 Peter 5:6). Fear won't be enough to carry me through such a life. And however far it might get me, it won't do so with the joy that obedience from a motive of love produces. I have learned - and am still learning - to walk in love with God and the effect of doing so in my relationship with Him has been enormous! I used fear as a motivator earlier in my life as a Christian but the joy, peace, strength and confidence that has come in walking in love with my Creator has exposed fear as a motivator for the weak, nasty, selfish thing that it is. Love has also created a consistency of obedience in my life that fear never could. Instead of acting like an inmate in a prison ruled by a cold and dangerous Warden, obedient on the outside but craving rebellion on the inside, I live as a contented child of a loving Heavenly Father, eager to please Him because I love Him dearly.

However, it is the fear of the Lord that men depart from evil.

"...and by the fear of the LORD men depart from evil." (Proverbs 16:6).

1 John 4:16
16 And we have known and believed the love that God has for us. God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God in him.

1 John 4:18
18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love.

2 Corinthians 5:14-15
14 For the love of Christ constrains us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

 

[klutedavid]

If a person can take 5 verses in my above list and offer me a word for word commentary so as to defend their idea that they can sin and still be saved on some level by having a belief alone on Jesus, I would greatly appreciate it.

If you cannot sin and you do sin, Jason, then you are not saved. That is what you just said in your post, 'their idea that they can sin and still be saved on some level'

How can you be saved if you keep on sinning?

 

[klutedavid]

After we are saved by God's grace,
God’s works (done through us) are also required as a part of the Salvation Process:

(Here are a List of Verses):


“Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).

"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.” (James 2:17-18).

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, "(1 Timothy 6:3-4).

"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).

"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? (Romans 6:1-2).

"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).

"Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).

“...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).

"If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha." (1 Corinthians 16:22).

"If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).

“If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.” (John 15:10).

"And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me." (Matthew 10:38).

”If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? (Matthew 16:24-26).

"...No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God." (Luke 9:62).

“Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.” (Matthew 5:8).

"Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21).

"But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).

”And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.” (Revelation 22:12-15).

"For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." (John 3:20).

“For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).

"...but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:17).

“Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” (Philippians 2:12).

“...And having become servants of God, ye have your fruit unto holiness and the end, everlasting life.” (Romans 6:22).

”Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.” (Matthew 25:34-40).

“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” (Matthew 25:41-46).

”His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.” (Matthew 25:21).

”And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 25:30).

”Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation [i.e. as the people of Israel did when they rebelled against him in the desert.”] (Hebrews 3:12-15) (Note: The explanation on verse 15 in brackets is taken from the Living Bible Translation (TLB)).

”Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)” (Hebrews 3:10-11).

”Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. (Hebrews 4:11).

“In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).

“He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God” (John 8:47).

You cannot say that you are saved by Grace, then turn and say, that you are saved by your works also. That is just a paradox.

You should be saying, no one in the end is saved until they become free from sin. That is what you teach, a perfect sanctification or damnation. You have already failed to reach that goal.

By Grace means God's kindness, God's forgiveness, God's tolerance towards you. Concentrate on God's love towards you and understand that you are absolutely forgiven in the first instance.

Anyone who does not admit that they sin, is a liar and the truth does not dwell within them.

 

[justbyfaith]

I said 5 and not 50. Going 5 mph over the speed limit is the same as murder?
Also, going 5 over the speed limit is not considered reckless endangerment of others around you (unless you are in a school zone or something).

Anyways, you really have an odd sense of morality.

Side Note:

Oh, and if you are this upset by such immoral things, then you should realize how much God is upset when a believer sins. Adam and Eve believed in God and yet, their sin separated them from God. They died spiritually the day they sinned and not physically. The bought into the devil's lie that they could sin and still be saved.

And all they did was eat a piece of fruit.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I think this is really at the heart of all of Jason0047's ideas about works-salvation and eternal security. He has yet to discover the incredible power of love as a motivator for righteous living, for obedience to God. He is afraid of grace, of the liberty that is in Christ.

God's grace (and our liberty in Christ) is not a license for immorality (Jude 1:4).

Such fear does not originate with God,

Yes, it does.

Proverbs 16:6 says,

"...and by the fear of the LORD men depart from evil." (Proverbs 16:6).

"“And you shall not be afraid of those who kill the body that are not able to kill the soul; rather be afraid of him who can destroy soul and body in Gehenna.”" (Matthew 10:28) (ABPE).

"Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king." (1 Peter 2:17).

"Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God." (2 Corinthians 7:1).

"There is no fear of God before their eyes." (Romans 3:18).

"And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh." (Jude 1:23).

however. The apostle John made this clear:

1 John 4:16-19
16 And we have known and believed the love that God has to us. God is love; and he who dwells in love dwells in God, and God in him.
17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear: because fear has torment. He who fears is not made perfect in love.
19 We love him, because he first loved us.

The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge and wisdom (Proverbs 1:7) (Proverbs 9:10).

After a person repents of their sins in fear of God, they then start to study and learn God's Word and they perfect holiness in the fear of God (See again: 2 Corinthians 7:1).

1 John 2:5 says,
"But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him."

So in order to perfect God's love, you have to keep His Word. It is how we know we know Him (1 John 2:3-4).

Jesus says,
"If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love." (John 15:10).

For if we use the Law in a lawful way (i.e. the Moral Law), we can see that the Law is not made for the righteous, but for the lawless, disobedient, ungodly, sinners, unholy, murderers, and anything that is contrary to sound doctrine.

8 "But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;" (1 Timothy 1:8-10).​

Jason0047 is using the fear of lost salvation as a goad to good deeds. His love for God is so weak that without the fear-goad he would dive right back into sin. This sounds to me like he loves his sin more than he loves his Saviour.

"Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man." (Ecclesiastes 12:13).

The problem with the fear motive, though, is that God doesn't accept obedience that arises out of fear. This is because the motivation of fear is not God-centered but Self-centered. It is Self that fears eternal damnation; it is Self that acts in obedience to God's commands in order to protect itself. And so we read in Scripture that God will not accept this sort of "obedience" but only those good, God-honoring deeds that arise out of a love for Him:

1 Corinthians 13:1-3
1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal.
2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing.

"And now, Israel, what doth the LORD thy God require of thee, but to fear the LORD thy God, to walk in all his ways, and to love him, and to serve the LORD thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul," (Deuteronomy 10:12).

So we see the pattern again.

1. Fear God.
2. Walk in His ways.
3. Love Him.

This is just so wrong! And it reveals how little Jason0047 knows about walking in love with God. I used to practice a martial art; did so for nearly thirty years. The training was often painful, exhausting, expensive, time-consuming, frustrating, and tedious. I suffered countless bruises, cuts, some dislocation of fingers and toes, and broken teeth. Why? Why would I do something that was so arduous and unpleasant? Why would I do something that cost me so much? The answer is: Love. I loved the training. Despite its hardships, the training was a delight to me, a joy. Because I loved it. I would not have done the same out of a motive of fear or obligation.

Love not the world, neither the things in the world (See 1 John 2:15-17).

The same holds true in my relationship with God. He requires me to "take up my cross daily" and die to myself (Matthew 16:24-26);

"and anyone who does not take up his cross and follow Me is not worthy of Me." (Matthew 10:38).

It doesn't say, he that does not take up his cross is still worthy of Him and we can just bask in the glow of his love and forgiveness (despite what we do).

He calls me to suffering and persecution for His name's sake (Matthew 5:10;

A person can fall away due to not desiring to be persecuted for their faith.

"Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended." (Matthew 13:21).

"Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven." (Matthew 5:10).

John 15:20);

Jesus warned the Pharisees of their sin as a part of this persecution by them.

"If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin; but now they have no excuse for their sin." (John 15:22).

He demands of me a life of yieldedness and submission to Him (Romans 6:13; Romans 12:1; James 4:6-7; 1 Peter 5:6). Fear won't be enough to carry me through such a life. And however far it might get me, it won't do so with the joy that obedience from a motive of love produces. I have learned - and am still learning - to walk in love with God and the effect of doing so in my relationship with Him has been enormous! I used fear as a motivator earlier in my life as a Christian but the joy, peace, strength and confidence that has come in walking in love with my Creator has exposed fear as a motivator for the weak, nasty, selfish thing that it is. Love has also created a consistency of obedience in my life that fear never could. Instead of acting like an inmate in a prison ruled by a cold and dangerous Warden, obedient on the outside but craving rebellion on the inside, I live as a contented child of a loving Heavenly Father, eager to please Him because I love Him dearly.

No doubt that God's love can motivate us, but to say that God's grace (love) covers our future sin and we do not need to worry about sin and the dire consequences it can have upon our souls is not true love. True love for God is first having a reverential fear for God in the fact that if we do disobey His commands, things will not go well for us. We love God enough not to break His commands. We realize that God is a God of justice and impartiality, and He is not going to play favorites. God is good and God is love, and His love does motivates me. But I know that if I did not have a proper fear of the Lord in the beginning of my faith and I did not fear to keep His commandments, then I could just think I could sin and still be saved (like many in the Belief Alone camp today think).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

If you cannot sin and you do sin, Jason, then you are not saved. That is what you just said in your post, 'their idea that they can sin and still be saved on some level'

How can you be saved if you keep on sinning?

When I speak of a "sin and still be saved" gospel or belief, I am referring to grievous sin and not minor transgressions of faults of character. The Bible is clear in what grievous sin can condemn you. Surely you have read the Bible before to know which sins can condemn a person.

 

[klutedavid]

When I speak of a "sin and still be saved" gospel or belief, I am referring to grievous sin and not minor transgressions of faults of character. The Bible is clear in what grievous sin can condemn you. Surely you have read the Bible before to know which sins can condemn a person.

What is the difference between minor and major sin?

Is not a bad thought towards your brother equivalent to murder?

Is not one sexual thought towards that woman, simply adultery?

What is the difference between minor and major sin?

Is not gluttony the same as drunkenness?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You cannot say that you are saved by Grace, then turn and say, that you are saved by your works also. That is just a paradox.

No it's not because Ephesians 2:8-9 says we are saved by God's grace THROUGH faith. Faith without works is dead (James 2:17). James says he will show you his faith by his works (James 2:18). So works of faith is a part of one's faith. They go hand in hand. So the issue is do you have true faith to access the saving grace of God that is a free gift? 1 John 1:7 says if we walk in the light the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin. Hebrews 5:9 says that Christ is the author of eternal salvation to all who OBEY Him.

You should be saying, no one in the end is saved until they become free from sin. That is what you teach, a perfect sanctification or damnation. You have already failed to reach that goal.

You are not God to know my life or walk with God. But thanks for the personal attack against my life. I will rejoice in God my Savior for such a thing.

I also do not believe we have to be perfect (generally speaking) to be saved.

By Grace means God's kindness, God's forgiveness, God's tolerance towards you. Concentrate on God's love towards you and understand that you are absolutely forgiven in the first instance.

If such were the case, then why doesn't God do this for everyone?
Is a belief really make somebody better on a moral level?
Again, an axe murdering rapist can say they may believe in Jesus, but that does not mean they are saved because their evil actions speak another story.
God's grace teaches us to deny ungodliness (Titus 2:11-12).
Your version of God's grace doesn't do that.

Anyone who does not admit that they sin, is a liar and the truth does not dwell within them.

Well, what is helpful in understanding 1 John 1:8 is looking at it's immediate context. 1 John 1:10 says if we say we have not sinned. 1 John 1:10 moves verse 8 (which is present tense) into a past declaration (with verse 10). Verse 10 is saying there are people who said they have not sinned (past tense). This is clearly a gnostic belief. Most believers today hold to the idea that they have sinned at some point in their life (Regardless of whether they are an OSAS believer or a Conditional Salvationist). 1 John 1:8 is a present declaration of sin. It is saying if we say we have no sin when we do sin (present tense). This has to be the interpretative understanding of this verse because 1 John 2:4 says if we say we know Him and do not keep His commandments we are a liar and the truth is not in us. The OSAS's interpretation on 1 John 1:8 does not work because it conflicts with a normal reading on 1 John 2:3-4. You cannot always be in sin (breaking God's commands) as a part of 1 John 1:8 and yet also fulfill 1 John 2:3 that says we can have an assurance of knowing Him if we keep His commandments. Especially when 1 John 2:4 says we are a liar and the truth is not in us if we break his commandments. In other words, if the OSAS interpretation on 1 John 1:8 was true, then I would be damned if I do by obeying God's commands (1 John 1:8) and yet I would be damned if I don't by not obeying God's commands (1 John 2:4).

In fact, the New English Translation says this for 1 John 1:8,

"If we say we do not bear the guilt of sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us." (1 John 1:8 NET).​

In other words, this verse is saying that if a person sins and says they do not bear the guilt of sin (in the sense that they will not have to face any wrath or Judgment from God over their sin) then they would be deceiving themselves and the truth would not be in them. This is exactly what the Eternal Security proposes. They are saying that they do not bear the guilt of any sin (destruction of their soul and body in hell fire) if they do sin because they believe their sins are paid for: Past, present, and future by Jesus. They are saying, they do not bear the guilt or the punishment of sin at the final Judgment because of their belief on Jesus. In short, 1 John 1:8 is a denial of the existence of sin on some level. “If we say we have no sin (in the sense that it does not exist) we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.” (1 John 1:8). Christian Scientists think sin is an illusion and does not exist at all. So this verse would apply to them. Eternal Security Proponents and those who deny that “Sin Can Separate a Believer from God” deny the existence of sin partially. They believe sin exists physically but they do not believe sin exists for them on a spiritual level because Jesus has forgiven them of all their sin by their belief on Jesus. In fact, to see just how silly your argument actually is for 1 John 1:8, you would have to believe that you are sinning right now at this very moment in order for such a verse to be true because 1 John 1:8 is speaking in the present tense.

 

[klutedavid]

You need to clarify this statement.

I also do not believe we have to be perfect (generally speaking) to be saved.

So what sin can you commit?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

What is the difference between minor and major sin?

Again, real life teaches us that not all infractions of the Law are the same.
Going 2 or 5 miles per hour over the speed limit is not the same as murdering someone. Jesus Himself said that the Pharisees ignored the WEIGHTIER matters of the Law (Matthew 23:23). Jesus even said that making a child to fall into sin is especially heinous (Matthew 18:6). Also, see again: 1 John 5:16-17, Romans 6:23, John 19:11, Matthew 12:31-32, 1 Peter 3:21).

Is not a bad thought towards your brother equivalent to murder?

Yes, 1 John 3:15. Both are grievous sins (major sins) according to the New Covenant teachings given to us by Jesus Christ.

Is not one sexual thought towards that woman, simply adultery?

Yes, Matthew 5:28-30. Both are grievous sins (major sins) according to the New Covenant teachings given to us by Jesus Christ.

Is not gluttony the same as drunkenness?

No Scripture verse says that.

Read this article here why they are not the same.

Is Gluttony Parallel to Drunkenness?

 

[klutedavid]

No it's not because Ephesians 2:8-9 says we are saved by God's grace THROUGH faith. Faith without works is dead (James 2:17). James says he will show you his faith by his works (James 2:18). So works of faith is a part of one's faith. They go hand in hand. So the issue is do you have true faith to access the saving grace of God that is a free gift? 1 John 1:7 says if we walk in the light the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin. Hebrews 5:9 says that Christ is the author of eternal salvation to all who OBEY Him.



You are not God to know my life or walk with God. But thanks for the personal attack against my life. I will rejoice in God my Savior for such a thing.

I also do not believe we have to be perfect (generally speaking) to be saved.



If such were the case, then why doesn't God do this for everyone?
Is a belief really make somebody better on a moral level?
Again, an axe murdering rapist can say they may believe in Jesus, but that does not mean they are saved because their evil actions speak another story.
God's grace teaches us to deny ungodliness (Titus 2:11-12).
Your version of God's grace doesn't do that.



Well, what is helpful in understanding 1 John 1:8 is looking at it's immediate context. 1 John 1:10 says if we say we have not sinned. 1 John 1:10 moves verse 8 (which is present tense) into a past declaration (with verse 10). Verse 10 is saying there are people who said they have not sinned (past tense). This is clearly a gnostic belief. Most believers today hold to the idea that they have sinned at some point in their life (Regardless of whether they are an OSAS believer or a Conditional Salvationist). 1 John 1:8 is a present declaration of sin. It is saying if we say we have no sin when we do sin (present tense). This has to be the interpretative understanding of this verse because 1 John 2:4 says if we say we know Him and do not keep His commandments we are a liar and the truth is not in us. The OSAS's interpretation on 1 John 1:8 does not work because it conflicts with a normal reading on 1 John 2:3-4. You cannot always be in sin (breaking God's commands) as a part of 1 John 1:8 and yet also fulfill 1 John 2:3 that says we can have an assurance of knowing Him if we keep His commandments. Especially when 1 John 2:4 says we are a liar and the truth is not in us if we break his commandments. In other words, if the OSAS interpretation on 1 John 1:8 was true, then I would be damned if I do by obeying God's commands (1 John 1:8) and yet I would be damned if I don't by not obeying God's commands (1 John 2:4).

In fact, the New English Translation says this for 1 John 1:8,

"If we say we do not bear the guilt of sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us." (1 John 1:8 NET).​

In other words, this verse is saying that if a person sins and says they do not bear the guilt of sin (in the sense that they will not have to face any wrath or Judgment from God over their sin) then they would be deceiving themselves and the truth would not be in them. This is exactly what the Eternal Security proposes. They are saying that they do not bear the guilt of any sin (destruction of their soul and body in hell fire) if they do sin because they believe their sins are paid for: Past, present, and future by Jesus. They are saying, they do not bear the guilt or the punishment of sin at the final Judgment because of their belief on Jesus. In short, 1 John 1:8 is a denial of the existence of sin on some level. “If we say we have no sin (in the sense that it does not exist) we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.” (1 John 1:8). Christian Scientists think sin is an illusion and does not exist at all. So this verse would apply to them. Eternal Security Proponents and those who deny that “Sin Can Separate a Believer from God” deny the existence of sin partially. They believe sin exists physically but they do not believe sin exists for them on a spiritual level because Jesus has forgiven them of all their sin by their belief on Jesus. In fact, to see just how silly your argument actually is for 1 John 1:8, you would have to believe that you are sinning right now at this very moment in order for such a verse to be true because 1 John 1:8 is speaking in the present tense.

Are you finished with massaging that text I quoted (1 John) to make it say something else?

1 John 8-10
If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

This paragraph is very simple, confess your sin and your forgiven. This paragraph is present tense not past tense.

Your interpretation is erroneous, no wonder you spent so much time on 1 John 8.