What saves a person?

[Bible Highlighter]

That has nothing to do with what we are discussing.

You said in post #47 that salvation is a gift.

 

[NW82]

John 3: 1-21

 

[Archer_on_Fire]

Faith on the finished work of Christ alone is what saves. It's true it's so simple that even a child could understand it, yet we have adults determined to make it more complicated than Jesus ever intended it to be.

Thank you Jesus for saving me!

 

[klutedavid]

It means my daily walk is upright with God. Care to answer my question on what sins you may be committing that you feel you are automatically forgiven by having a belief on Jesus? I answered your question, care to answer mine?

All sin is forgiven, if all sin is not forgiven then all are damned. Salvation is based on trusting in Jesus and not on your own works.

 

[klutedavid]

You said in post #47 that salvation is a gift.

That is what the scripture states, that is not my opinion Jason. Salvation is by grace, and that is the free gift.

 

[Archer_on_Fire]

That is what the scripture states, that is not my opinion Jason. Salvation is by grace, and that is the free gift.

Yep. And if you have to do something to earn this free gift-like forsaking sins or making Christ Lord of your life- then it's not truly free.

 

[Mountainmanbob]

Grace Alone
Faith Alone
Christ Alone

When Jesus was asked by Nicodemus what must one do to be born again Jesus replied it would be by the Holy Spirit which is like the wind we have no control over the wind.

M-Bob

 

[klutedavid]

Yep. And if you have to do something to earn this free gift then it's not truly free.

Even the apostles struggled with this, how could salvation be a gift?

 

[Archer_on_Fire]

Even the apostles struggled with this, how could salvation be a gift?

It's sad that even they struggled with it. I didn't know that so that's interesting.

 

[klutedavid]

It's sad that even they struggled with it. I didn't know that so that's interesting.

Nothing changes, human nature never changes.
Everything you struggle with, i.e., the battle between the flesh and the Spirit, they likewise deeply struggled with.

They had good days and they had bad days. They had heated arguments, and they rebuked one another. Paul definitely was in conflict with the church in Jerusalem, the letter to the Galatians spells this out very clearly.

The world in the first century is identical to the world we live in. The same old arguments repeated over and over again.

 

[NW82]

John 3: 1-21

Christ Himself answered this, so I'm not sure why it's a question

 

[Neostarwcc]

Yes, you must believe in Jesus in order to be saved. Salvation is granted to us through Jesus Christ, this gift of our reconciliation to God is not a merit based contract.

Salvation is a free gift and that gift is freely given to anyone, who calls on the name of Jesus.

As I said before, if any level of sin is a condition of salvation, then no one can be saved.

I agree. Its impossible to stop sinning in this life but we will be sinless in the next life.

 

[Neostarwcc]

What a great question. Here's my short answer:

Salvation is not a thing you get but an interpersonal relationship you enter into with the Author and only Source of Life.
​

This is an overarching theme of scripture and it's why faith is the only essential to salvation (e.g. Paul in Romans, Jesus in John 3 & 6, etc.). Contrary to claims by detractors like Richard Dawkins, Biblical faith is not and has never been believing a list of facts without evidence. Instead, Biblical faith is always personal, cooperative trust in the Creator God who discloses his nature (Romans 1:20), His character (Exodus 34:6-7) his mind, will and emotions, (Hebrews 1:1-2).

In Hebrews 11:6, the author explains why faith (i.e. active relational confidence) is vital; in order to please God you have to 1) be convinced that Yahweh is a Person you can know and 2) that your efforts to know Him will bear fruit.

The testimony of scripture affirms God as the only Source and Sustainer of life and and the universe (Genesis 1:1, Psalm, 19, Psalm 139:13, John 1:1-4, Romans 1:20, Hebrews 1:3, Colossians 1:16...). Apart from a connection to Him, no one can exist. I like to picture a fan plugged into a wall; in itself it has no power. Unplugged from the wall it will continue to spin but inevitably will stop, never to continue again until connected to the source of energy. Sin, is rebellion, a rejection of God as the trustworthy Source of goodness, love and life. Hence, sin always results in death and decay, the opposite of who Yahweh is (Matthew 22:32).

In the Gospel (the good news about the Kingdom/Rule of God being re-established on earth - see Mark 1:14), Jesus is the fulfillment of all of Yahweh's promises (Seed of Eve, Seed of Abraham, Lion of Judah, Seed of David) as well as the vindicator of God's faithfulness and compassion along with with his justice (Romans 3:26). Through the blood of Christ, the Lamb of God who takes away sin, we are brought into a New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:31, Hebrews 8:8), a new situation in which God's character (i.e. law) are written internally and in which everyone can interpersonally know God as a Father because we are made alive in the Son (Romans 6, Ephesians 1) through the Holy Spirit. We are now living inside the eternal love/life of the "happy land of the Trinity"(see Fred Sander's helpful book), or as Peter wrote:

"His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence, by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature" (2 Peter 1:3-4)​

John says it well: "He who has the Son, has life. He who does not have the Son of God, does not have life." (1 John 5:12) Eternal life is being in God's family by being in the Son. (2 Corinthians 5:17) Born of the Spirit into God's family, we are now able to inherit the same quality of life God enjoy (John 3:5-8, 1 Corinthians 15:42-56)

And that's Good News!

I couldn't have explained it better. Excellent! Thank you.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

This is not the issue.

The question concerns the basis of the act of salvation, by Christ alone or by Christ and your holiness together.

Yes, that is a concern because Paul talks about how Godly sorrow leads us to repentance; And the sorrow of this world leads to death. Repentance is when a person seeks God's forgiveness. Repentance is always made true by one bringing forth fruits of repentance (i.e. forsaking one's sins). If not, it is not a genuine repentance. If a person is not truly sorry over their sins, they have a false faith. God is concerned with the heart. If our heart is not humble we are not going to make it.

James 4:6 says God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble.
Blessed is the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of Heaven (Matthew 5:3).
A person who justifies sin is not a humble person.
A person who is broken before God and repents is humble.
A genuine repentance that leads to an upright walk.
If this walk is not upright, then they were not truly sorry.
They're saying they were sorry doesn't mean anything.
It would be just a mere show or a paying of lip service.
It would be saying one thing and doing another.

A person's faith (even one's initial faith) has to be grounded in the truth of God's Word. Many people think they can accept Jesus and still sin on some level. But it does not work like that. A person has to toss out about 90% of their Bible in order to make a sin and still be saved doctrine work. Hebrews 12:14 says without holiness, no man shall see the Lord. “For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I agree. Its impossible to stop sinning in this life but we will be sinless in the next life.

We can overcome grievous sin in this life. For what do you make of verses like these?

1 Peter 4:1-2 says,

1 "Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God."​

Galatians 5:24 says,

"And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts."​

Do you just re-write these kind of verses because you don't like them?
I just read them and believe them, friend.
Simple faith.

Here are a few more verses like this.

"There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." (1 Corinthians 10:13).

"But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof." (Romans 13:14).

"Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God." (2 Corinthians 7:1).

"This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh." (Galatians 5:16).

"Be careful to live properly among your unbelieving neighbors. Then even if they accuse you of doing wrong, they will see your honorable behavior, and they will give honor to God when he judges the world." (1 Peter 2:12 NLT).

"That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;" (Philippians 2:15).

“Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him” (Romans 6:6-8).

“Don't you realize that you become the slave of whatever you choose to obey? You can be a slave to sin, which leads to death, or you can choose to obey God, which leads to righteous living.” (Romans 6:16 NLT).

“there are false prophets... who cannot cease from sin.” (2 Peter 2:1, 2 Peter 2:14).

“Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.” (1 Corinthians 15:34).

“Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is well pleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen” (Hebrews 13:20-21).

“But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.” (1 John 2:5).

“And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.” (1 Thessalonians 5:23).

“For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication: That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;” (1 Thessalonians 4:3-4).

“For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.” (1 Thessalonians 4:7).

“And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.” (1 John 5:19).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

This is not the issue.

The question concerns the basis of the act of salvation, by Christ alone or by Christ and your holiness together.

Honestly, I do not see how you can read your Bible and come to the conclusion that you do. The Bible is clear that...

After we are saved by God's grace,
God’s works (done through us) are also required as a part of the Salvation Process:

(Here are a List of Verses):


“Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).

"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.” (James 2:17-18).

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, "(1 Timothy 6:3-4).

"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).

"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? (Romans 6:1-2).

"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).

"Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).

“...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).

"If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha." (1 Corinthians 16:22).

"If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).

“If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.” (John 15:10).

"And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me." (Matthew 10:38).

”If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? (Matthew 16:24-26).

"...No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God." (Luke 9:62).

“Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.” (Matthew 5:8).

"Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21).

"But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).

”And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.” (Revelation 22:12-15).

"For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." (John 3:20).

“For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).

"...but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:17).

“Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” (Philippians 2:12).

“...And having become servants of God, ye have your fruit unto holiness and the end, everlasting life.” (Romans 6:22).

”Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.” (Matthew 25:34-40).

“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” (Matthew 25:41-46).

”His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.” (Matthew 25:21).

”And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 25:30).

”Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation [i.e. as the people of Israel did when they rebelled against him in the desert.”] (Hebrews 3:12-15) (Note: The explanation on verse 15 in brackets is taken from the Living Bible Translation (TLB)).

”Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)” (Hebrews 3:10-11).

”Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. (Hebrews 4:11).

“In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).

“He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God” (John 8:47).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

This is the problem.

Sin is sin, whether your sin is minor or even great sin. It is sin and it is continuous sin, all sin is disobedience and rebellion.

Not true. All sin is not the same. The Bible even tells you this fact.

"All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death." (1 John 5:17).
Yet, Romans 6:23 says the wages of sin is death.

Jesus says there is a greater sin (John 19:11). So that means there are degrees to sin. Not all sins are the same. In Matthew 12:31-32 says that speaking bad words (blasphemy) against the Holy Ghost can never be forgiven, and yet speaking bad words (blasphemy) against the Son can be forgiven. 1 Peter 3:21 says that baptism is not for salvation. Baptism saves us in having a cleansed conscience, but it does not cleanse us from the filth of the flesh (sin).

Even humans (in the real world) do not regards all sins the same. Going 5 mph per hour over the speed limit while driving is not considered the same kind of offense as say... murdering somebody.

I say this because Jesus made real world examples all the time. They are called Parables.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Faith on the finished work of Christ alone is what saves. It's true it's so simple that even a child could understand it, yet we have adults determined to make it more complicated than Jesus ever intended it to be.

Thank you Jesus for saving me!

Please quote me where it says in the Bible that we are saved by the finished work of Christ and not by any works of faith that comes later and I will believe you.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

All sin is forgiven, if all sin is not forgiven then all are damned. Salvation is based on trusting in Jesus and not on your own works.

No. You assume nobody can walk uprightly with God when such is not the case. The 144,000 were said to be without fault before the throne of God. In context, it mentions their good deeds like: how they were virgins, there was no guile found in their mouths, etc.

Revelation 14:

3 "And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God."
​

Jesus gives us victory not only on the cross by forgiving us of our past sins, but He gives us victory over grievous sin in this life.

"But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof." (Romans 13:14).

"For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil." (1 John 3:8).

"For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. " (Romans 8:13).

​

 

[Bible Highlighter]

All sin is forgiven, if all sin is not forgiven then all are damned. Salvation is based on trusting in Jesus and not on your own works.

If all sin is forgiven then why are believers told that they can confess sin in order to be forgiven of sin?

See 1 John 1:9.

Please take note that John says for believers to "sin not" (See 1 John 2:1).
Obviously John does not agree with you.

Jesus says two times to "sin no more."
How does that work with your idea that no believer can stop committing grievous sin?