What saves a person?

[klutedavid]

Again, real life teaches us that not all infractions of the Law are the same.
Going 2 or 5 miles per hour over the speed limit is not the same as murdering someone. Jesus Himself said that the Pharisees ignored the WEIGHTIER matters of the Law (Matthew 23:23). Jesus even said that making a child to fall into sin is especially heinous (Matthew 18:6). Also, see again: 1 John 5:16-17, Romans 6:23, John 19:11, Matthew 12:31-32, 1 Peter 3:21).



Yes, 1 John 3:15. Both are grievous sins (major sins) according to the New Covenant teachings given to us by Jesus Christ.



Yes, Matthew 5:28-30. Both are grievous sins (major sins) according to the New Covenant teachings given to us by Jesus Christ.



No Scripture verse says that.

Read this article here why they are not the same.

Is Gluttony Parallel to Drunkenness?

How about you list some of these sins that we can commit freely.

 

[justbyfaith]

Then why did Jesus say if you will enter into life, keep the commandments? (See Matthew 19:17).

I have already told you the answer to this Jason. The Lord was exposing the rich young ruler to the law as a schoolmaster to lead him to Christ.

But faith in what? The gospel? Trusting the Lord to save us? Or both?

Yes. The Lord (John 6:47). The gospel (1 Corinthians 15:1-4).

"For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication" (KJV).

"God's will is for you to be holy, so stay away from all sexual sin." (NLT).

I have heard it said that when a minister emphasizes a certain type of sin in his preaching, it is because that is the sin that they personally deal with the most. Now I know that in my own life, I used to preach hard against sin and was a huge proponent of the doctrine of entire sanctification; but I had no victory in certain areas of my llife. However, when I actually admitted that I was a sinner; and when I decided that I was going to change my moniker from saying "sanctified by grace through faith alone" to "justified sinner"--the moment I decided to make the understanding that I am a sinner public--I began to have the victory in those certain areas of my life. Because now that I am a sinner in my public proclamation (see 1 Timothy 1:15), God is able to bring sanctification to certain areas of my life without my going back on him and beginning to justify myself as the Pharisee in the parable (Luke 18:9-14). Because I decided to just make it clear to everyone for the rest of my life, come what may, that I am as the publican. So now in the public sense I cast myself on the mercy of God permanently; and if I am being sanctified as the result it does not take away the fact that my salvation rests in the forgiveness of Christ through His shed blood on the Cross of Calvary.

But we also see in Luke 19:1-10 that Zacchaeus did not give away all his goods, but he only was willing to give half away and yet Jesus said salvation had come to his house.

Actually Zacchaues also promised to give back fourfold of anything that he might have taken unjustly as a tax collector; which very likely would have wiped him out.

So saying that none of us can be perfect because the Bible says we have to be perfect to be saved, therefore: We need a belief alone on the finish work of the cross to be saved is not simply true. That is something other people here are inventing (or adding to the BIble) because they like the easy path and not the narrow way.

It is true (Galatians 3:10, James 2:10, Matthew 5:48, Matthew 5:18); (Galatians 2:16, John 19:30, etc.). This is nothing that I am adding to the Bible, it is doctrine that I am getting from the Bible.

A belief alone in Jesus will not save a person.

It can (John 3:16). But of course calling on His name will absolutely save a person (Romans 10:13). As evidenced by the difference between the words "should" and "shall". And of course believing on Jesus alone, if it be a genuine faith, means that the person absolutely "hath everlasting life" (John 6:47).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You need to clarify this statement.

So what sin can you commit?

When the Bible talks of "perfection" it is talking about being 100% perfectly obedient to God and blameless. Whatever word you want to put in the place for the words "perfect," "blameless," "without fault," etc. is what the Bible describes as a possibility for certain believers. We see it with Zachariah and Elisabeth in Luke 1:6 by the fact that they were blameless (KJV) in keeping God's commandments and we see that the 144,000 are without fault before the throne of God (See Revelation 14:3-5) (KJV). (Note: This is in context to their holy deeds). Am I saying that we can be perfectly obedient to God today? Well, I would not rather say in this thread here because it is not permitted to promote Sinless Perfectionism in this section of the forums.

What I can say is that we can overcome a certain kind of sins called "grievous sins" or "sins that lead unto death" like: unrepentant murder, hate, adultery, theft, drunkenness, lying, etc. The Bible lists these kinds of sins that can cause a person not to inherit the Kingdom of God (Galatians 5:19-21, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Revelation 21:8, etc.).

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

As good a talk as I have heard on the subject:-

 

[Bible Highlighter]

How about you list some of these sins that we can commit freely.

I think we should strive to be obedient in all the ways of the Lord even those commands that do not deal with our salvation.

 

[klutedavid]

When the Bible talks of "perfection" it is talking about being 100% perfectly obedient to God and blameless. Whatever word you want to put in the place for the words "perfect," "blameless," "without fault," etc. is what the Bible describes as a possibility for certain believers. We see it with Zachariah and Elisabeth in Luke 1:6 by the fact that they were blameless (KJV) in keeping God's commandments and we see that the 144,000 are without fault before the throne of God (See Revelation 14:3-5) (KJV). (Note: This is in context to their holy deeds). Am I saying that we can be perfectly obedient to God today? Well, I would not rather say in this thread here because it is not permitted to promote Sinless Perfectionism in this section of the forums.

What I can say is that we can overcome a certain kind of sins called "grievous sins" or "sins that lead unto death" like: unrepentant murder, hate, adultery, theft, drunkenness, lying, etc. The Bible lists these kinds of sins that can cause a person not to inherit the Kingdom of God (Galatians 5:19-21, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Revelation 21:8, etc.).

Do you include gluttony in that list?

 

[justbyfaith]

@Jason0047 said:

In other words, this verse is saying that if a person sins and says they do not bear the guilt of sin (in the sense that they will not have to face any wrath or Judgment from God over their sin) then they would be deceiving themselves and the truth would not be in them. This is exactly what the Eternal Security proposes. They are saying that they do not bear the guilt of any sin (destruction of their soul and body in hell fire) if they do sin because they believe their sins are paid for: Past, present, and future by Jesus. They are saying, they do not bear the guilt or the punishment of sin at the final Judgment because of their belief on Jesus.

Now it appears to me that you are saying here that everyone must go to hell and then the lake of fire: because with eternal security, which proposes that we are forgiven of the sins of which we bear their guilt, you are saying that this is a false doctrine that this might be the case.

We are deceiving ourselves if we believe that we will not face the judgment and wrath of God over sin? Christ's blood isn't sufficient to bring forgiveness?

So if we are not forgiven of our sins, how does anyone go to heaven?

I think that you have not thought your position through.

 

[klutedavid]

I think we should strive to be obedient in all the ways of the Lord even those commands that do not deal with our salvation.

I need some examples of sin that have no judgement. The reason why I need your confession on this matter, is because I do not know of a single sin that is not basically blatant disobedience.

I need you to confess the sins that we can commit!

 

[klutedavid]

I think we should strive to be obedient in all the ways of the Lord even those commands that do not deal with our salvation.

Your so vague in your posts now.

I demand to know what the difference really is between say, gluttony and murder?

To me, they are both sin. Picking up sticks on the Sabbath results in a death penalty. Surely a life of wanton pleasure which is what gluttony amounts to, surely deserves the death penalty also.

Your interpretation is condoning sin.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I have already told you the answer to this Jason. The Lord was exposing the rich young ruler to the law as a schoolmaster to lead him to Christ.

I am just going to take the first part of your post because I am limited on time and I need to work another project soon.

Okay, Jesus did not say that the Law was a school master to bring us unto Christ. Paul said that. Paul's point in saying that was to get those who believed in Circumcision Salvationism to trust in Christ as their Savior for salvation and not circumcision or the Old Law (After the New Covenant was already in effect). When Jesus spoke to the young rich ruler, the New Covenant had not been instituted yet. So the Old Law was to still be obeyed until a person heard by Christ those teachings that told them follow His commands instead of the Old way. Anyways, to make a long story short, if you were to read the end of Matthew 19, the point was not that the rich young ruler could not keep the commands and so he had to accept Jesus instead. That was not the lesson we learned in this story. The chapter ends with the point of forsaking things in this life as a part of eternal life so as to follow Jesus. If what you say is true and the rich young ruler only needed to believe in Jesus to be saved, then Jesus would have stopped the young rich ruler from leaving and told him not to worry about giving up his riches and he could simply just believe on Him for salvation because he paid the price for his love of money over Jesus. Please take note that forsaking everything one has is not in view for every person like the rich young ruler, too. We learn in Luke 19:1-10 of how Zacchaeus only was willing to give away half of his goods with Jesus telling him that salvation had come to his house. Again, this narrative in Scripture runs contrary to what you are teaching. If what you say is true, then Jesus should have rejected Zacchaeus for trying to offer his goods as a part of being acceptable to the Lord; But that is not what happened. Jesus said that salvation had come to his house.

Please take note that I am not discounting the necessity of how we first need to have faith in Christ to be saved. I believe that the lessons Jesus gave us in the gospels is to show how we also need to bring forth works of faith after we are saved by believing in Jesus as our Savior.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Your so vague in your posts now.

I demand to know what the difference really is between say, gluttony and murder?

To me, they are both sin. Picking up sticks on the Sabbath results in a death penalty. Surely a life of wanton pleasure which is what gluttony amounts to, surely deserves the death penalty also.

Your interpretation is condoning sin.

It's really simple. We are not under the Law of Moses (2 Corinthians 3:7-11, 2 Corinthians 3:14, Romans 7:4, Romans 7:6, Colossians 2:14, Colossians 2:20-23, Ephesians 2:15, Hebrews 7:18, Hebrews 8:13, Hebrews 9:9-10, Hebrews 9:15, Hebrews 9:16-17, Hebrews 10:8-9, Matthew 26:27-28, Matthew 27:20-51, Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, Acts of the Apostles 15:24). (Note: Hover your cursor over the verses to check them out).

The Law of Moses (the 613 laws given to Israel) was the Old Contract. We are under a New Contract or New Covenant with New Commands that come from Jesus and His followers. Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed. Some of these commands come with dire warnings to our soul in the afterlife if we break them, and other commands do not come with these warnings. Any breaking of God's commands (sin) listed in the New Testament that talks about condemnation, etc. (like: Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, Matthew 25:31-46, Luke 9:62, Galatians 5:19-21, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, 1 John 3:15, etc.) is the kind of sin that can condemn any person regardless if they are even a believer (unless they repent, i.e. seek forgiveness with God). If you want to know the difference, I would suggest doing a study on the commands in the New Testament.

 

[justbyfaith]

Yeah Jason; what sins are okay to commit in the sight of the Lord?

response to #209.

 

[aiki]

God's grace (and our liberty in Christ) is not a license for immorality (Jude 1:4).

Did someone say that it was?

Yes, it does.

Proverbs 16:6 says,

"...and by the fear of the LORD men depart from evil." (Proverbs 16:6).

"“And you shall not be afraid of those who kill the body that are not able to kill the soul; rather be afraid of him who can destroy soul and body in Gehenna.”" (Matthew 10:28) (ABPE).

"Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king." (1 Peter 2:17).

"Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God." (2 Corinthians 7:1).

"There is no fear of God before their eyes." (Romans 3:18).

"And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh." (Jude 1:23).

As has been pointed out to you before, the fear in these verses is not the craven fear of a terrified slave but the awestruck reverence of those who properly understand the power and majesty of the Creator. The way you want to read these verses in regards to fear puts you directly at odds with the apostle John.

After a person repents of their sins in fear of God...

Romans 2:4
4 Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?

1 John 2:5 says,
"But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him."

And how is the word of God kept? It begins, not with fearing God, but with loving Him and those around us whom He loves.

Matthew 22:35-40
35 Then one of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, and saying,
36 "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?"
37 Jesus said to him, "'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.'
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.'
40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."

"Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man." (Ecclesiastes 12:13).

Matthew 22:37-38
37 Jesus said to him, "'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.'
38 This is the first and great commandment.

So we see the pattern again.

1. Fear God.
2. Walk in His ways.
3. Love Him.

And we read the words of the apostle John:

1 John 4:18-19
18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love.
19 We love Him because He first loved us.

Do we follow the OT edicts given to the people of Israel? Or the words of the NT apostles inspired by God and written to all Christian believers under the New Covenant wrought by the atoning work of Christ at Calvary? I am called into loving fellowship with God and Christ, not fearful obedience as a member of the Israelite Old Testament theocracy.

No doubt that God's love can motivate us, but to say that God's grace (love) covers our future sin and we do not need to worry about sin and the dire consequences it can have upon our souls is not true love.

God's love most certainly can motivate us! In fact, it must! As I pointed out from the words of Paul, the only obedience God accepts from us is that arising out of obedience to the First and Great Commandment.

It is God's word that tells us that Christ has paid for all of our sin - past, present and future. This is the Good News of salvation!

Romans 5:18-21
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
21 That as sin has reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Hebrews 9:25-28
25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest enters into the holy place every year with blood of others;
26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world has he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many...

Romans 6:10
10 For the death that He died, He died to sin, once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.

Hebrews 10:10-14
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 And every priest stands daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
14 For by one offering he has perfected for ever them who are being sanctified.

Never have I said that what Christ has done on the cross for us in freeing us from the penalty and bondage of sin gives us the freedom to live licentiously and immorally. I have only pointed out that love will take us farther with God - much, much farther - than fear will. And it is love that constrains us to live godly in Christ Jesus, that gives us joy and delight in dying to ourselves and living in obedience to God's commands. But your words reveal that you know nothing of this sort of fellowship with God. This is very, very sad. Worse still, in that you are urging others to the same sad experience of their Maker.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I really do not have time for this right now. I have to run so as to work on another project that is really important for the Lord.

May God's bless you all today (even if I disagree with you strongly).

Peace and good things in the Lord to you all.

 

[klutedavid]

It's really simple. We are not under the Law of Moses (2 Corinthians 3:7-11, 2 Corinthians 3:14, Romans 7:4, Romans 7:6, Colossians 2:14, Colossians 2:20-23, Ephesians 2:15, Hebrews 7:18, Hebrews 8:13, Hebrews 9:9-10, Hebrews 9:15, Hebrews 9:16-17, Hebrews 10:8-9, Matthew 26:27-28, Matthew 27:20-51, Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, Acts of the Apostles 15:24). (Note: Hover your cursor over the verses to check them out).

The Law of Moses (the 613 laws given to Israel) was the Old Contract. We are under a New Contract or New Covenant with New Commands that come from Jesus and His followers. Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed. Some of these commands come with dire warnings to our soul in the afterlife if we break them, and other commands do not come with these warnings. Any breaking of God's commands (sin) listed in the New Testament that talks about condemnation, etc. (like: Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, Matthew 25:31-46, Luke 9:62, Galatians 5:19-21, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, 1 John 3:15, etc.) is the kind of sin that can condemn any person regardless if they are even a believer (unless they repent, i.e. seek forgiveness with God). If you want to know the difference, I would suggest doing a study on the commands in the New Testament.

For some unknown reason, you are refusing to answer my question. Jason, you have been asked to name a few sins that we can safely commit.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

For some unknown reason, you are refusing to answer my question. Jason, you have been asked to name a few sins that we can safely commit.

I already answered this.
You just did not like the answer.

Anyways, I gotta run to work on another project for the Lord.

Peace be unto you from the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[justbyfaith]

So what I see you saying Jason, is that we are no longer obligated to keep the laws in the Old Testament; but we are obligated to keep the laws in the New. So we are not under the Old Testament law but we are under New Testament law.

What this means is that we must keep every command in the New Testament perfectly or else we will go to the lake of fire in the end. Law is law. See Galatians 3:10, James 2:10, Matthew 5:48.

So Jesus came not to forgive us of our sins and to bring salvation; but rather He came only to institute a new law that is more difficult than the former one to keep!

Therefore Jesus came not to save the world but to condemn it (however please look at John 3:17). Because if no one could keep the law of the Old Testament, the New Testament, which is even harder to keep, would be impossible! But since He requires it of us, we will all go to hell if we do not keep it.

Unless, of course, when it says we are not under the law but under grace (Romans 6:14) it is not referring only to the Old Testament law but also the New!

re #212.

 

[justbyfaith]

I already answered this.

Not that I can see.

 

[justbyfaith]

Please take note that forsaking everything one has is not in view for every person like the rich young ruler, too. We learn in Luke 19:1-10 of how Zacchaeus only was willing to give away half of his goods with Jesus telling him that salvation had come to his house.

Zacchaeus also promised to give back fourfold everything that he had gained unjustly as a tax collector; and this very likely would have wiped him out.

So then, you who seek to be justified by the law/works/personal obedience, Jesus requires you to forsake all that you have or you cannot be His disciple (Luke 14:33).

 

[justbyfaith]

I already answered this.
You just did not like the answer.

Anyways, I gotta run to work on another project for the Lord.

Peace be unto you from the Lord Jesus Christ.

James 4:7? Naaaah!

Just wanted to bless you with some more persecution my brother.