What Presbyterians Believe

[Nova Scotian Boy]

I thought this was a good brief description as to what Presbyterians believe.

 

[Tyndale 1966]

Thanks!

 

[Nova Scotian Boy]

Your welcome. I hope it is helpful also feel free to message me is you have questions or clarification.

 

[SPB1987]

According to Presbyterian beliefs, do we have the ability to choose to accept God? The bit on sovereignty has me confused...are our entire lives planned with us having no ability to impact anything?

 

[hedrick]

According to Presbyterian beliefs, do we have the ability to choose to accept God? The bit on sovereignty has me confused...are our entire lives planned with us having no ability to impact anything?

Sure we have that ability. But only through grace.

Reformed folk normally believe in "compatibiliism." This is the idea that responsible human choice and God's plan are compatible. God doesn't just force people to do things. He works through normal human processes. People choose him because they are the kind of people they are, with the kind of experiences they had, and because the Holy Spirit is working with them. So they actually choose. It's just that this choice is part of God's plan, and we are only able to choose him because God has ordained the specific helps for us that he did.

 

[cajunhillbilly]

Sure we have that ability. But only through grace.

Reformed folk normally believe in "compatibiliism." This is the idea that responsible human choice and God's plan are compatible. God doesn't just force people to do things. He works through normal human processes. People choose him because they are the kind of people they are, with the kind of experiences they had, and because the Holy Spirit is working with them. So they actually choose. It's just that this choice is part of God's plan, and we are only able to choose him because God has ordained the specific helps for us that he did.

Good explanation

 

[SPB1987]

Sure we have that ability. But only through grace.

Reformed folk normally believe in "compatibiliism." This is the idea that responsible human choice and God's plan are compatible. God doesn't just force people to do things. He works through normal human processes. People choose him because they are the kind of people they are, with the kind of experiences they had, and because the Holy Spirit is working with them. So they actually choose. It's just that this choice is part of God's plan, and we are only able to choose him because God has ordained the specific helps for us that he did.

So essentially only some of us are chosen? What about those who are not chosen? What happens to them?

 

[AMR]

So essentially only some of us are chosen? What about those who are not chosen? What happens to them?

Those not chosen are left in their sins and their destiny is well-known from Scripture, no?

The real question is, "Why does God extend efficacious saving grace to anyone?"

Romans 11:33-36.

 

[SPB1987]

Those not chosen are left in their sins and their destiny is well-known from Scripture, no?

The real question is, "Why does God extend efficacious saving grace to anyone?"

Romans 11:33-36.

The real question is why create humans that you will purposefully not save? I am not trying to be combative but I just can not understand this train of thought.....why create a human being that God knows in advance he will not choose to save and instead condemn to hell? I am asking these questions because from my readings of the Bible, it appears in some instances we have a choice and in others we are simply just chosen or not...just do not understand. My background comes from the free will point of view...Southern Baptist and Church of Christ if that helps any.

 

[Eddie L]

The real question is why create humans that you will purposefully not save? I am not trying to be combative but I just can not understand this train of thought.....why create a human being that God knows in advance he will not choose to save and instead condemn to hell?

We're not asked to understand why God does what He does. We're asked to believe Him when He tells us what He does. I know you know that, but I'm just trying to point out what your objection seems to suggest. By accident, many people go to the Bible with the idea that God is supposed to sell His plan to them. He isn't. He's just telling us what He wants us to know. That we don't understand the mind of God is reasonable, since He is so much more than we are, and since He is privy to a universe-worth of understanding that we don't have. Us understanding His agenda is not a requirement for accepting what He teaches.

Many people decide not to believe a clear teaching of the Bible just because they can't see why it works that way. Personally, I don't know why God does all he does, but I know enough to know that His reasons are better than mine. He does what He wants to do whether I understand His reasons or not.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

The real question is why create humans that you will purposefully not save?

The question is just as valid for non-Presbyterians (non-Calvinists). For those folks the question is: why did he allow anyone to be born knowing they would choose hell? You say; "at least they choose to go there", but what makes the person who chooses Heaven to choose? Are they wiser? More humble? More intelligent? We could go on and on with those types of questions, but according to Scripture God leaves no room for boasting (Eph 2:4-10).

I am not trying to be combative but I just can not understand this train of thought.....why create a human being that God knows in advance he will not choose to save and instead condemn to hell? I am asking these questions because from my readings of the Bible, it appears in some instances we have a choice and in others we are simply just chosen or not...just do not understand. My background comes from the free will point of view...Southern Baptist and Church of Christ if that helps any.

Romans Chapter 9 deals with your question, I recommend reading verses 1-24 especially.

"22What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory," (NKJV)

In the final analysis, everything is about bringing glory to God (the riches of His glory). Man, regenerate or not, cannot rightfully boast or glory in self, but only in Christ (Gal 6:14).

Please understand that we put ourselves in a dangerous position, when we appoint ourselves as judges over God, and what or how He ought to govern things. Consider the differences between the Creator and His creation. How can our infinite Creator be judged according to the standards of finite creatures? It's an apples to oranges comparison. To give an illustration, it's likened to an insect making moral judgments against a human for stepping on it. Tell me you've never killed an insect.

Ahh but you respond; "what makes the insect innocent", and I reply; what makes people innocent? There are multitudes of Scripture which tell us that human nature is anything but innocent. Pay careful attention to the suppositions you bring to Scripture. Be transformed by Scripture, as opposed to the other way around as most do, twisting Scripture to fit their doctrines of men.

 

[AMR]

The real question is why create humans that you will purposefully not save? I am not trying to be combative but I just can not understand this train of thought.....why create a human being that God knows in advance he will not choose to save and instead condemn to hell? I am asking these questions because from my readings of the Bible, it appears in some instances we have a choice and in others we are simply just chosen or not...just do not understand. My background comes from the free will point of view...Southern Baptist and Church of Christ if that helps any.

We start by answering the question, why did God create in the first place?

Our catechism tells us:
[FONT=&quot]
Q. 1. What is the chief and highest end of man?
A. Man's chief and highest end is to glorify God, and fully to enjoy him for ever.

Rom. 11:36; 1 Cor. 10:31; Ps. 73:24-28; John 17:21-23.

[/FONT]

 

[SPB1987]

We start by answering the question, why did God create in the first place?

Our catechism tells us:
[FONT=&quot]
Q. 1. What is the chief and highest end of man?
A. Man's chief and highest end is to glorify God, and fully to enjoy him for ever.

Rom. 11:36; 1 Cor. 10:31; Ps. 73:24-28; John 17:21-23.

[/FONT]

How is condemning a significant portion of your creation glorifying? I am not intending to be combative, I am just trying to understand. I have been taught free will my entire life but the very concept seems at odd with the Bible at times.

 

[Eddie L]

How is condemning a significant portion of your creation glorifying? I am not intending to be combative, I am just trying to understand. I have been taught free will my entire life but the very concept seems at odd with the Bible at times.

Aren't the same portions of creation condemned in your view?

The Bible states many times that God is glorified both in the delivery of justice and the delivery of mercy. So whether God executes wrath against sin or mercy to forgive sin, He is glorified.

All religions except what we would believe is the true Christian religion has man's self-improvement or self-redemption as the purpose of creation. We believe the ultimate purpose of creation is to demonstrate the glory of God. I personally don't think this can refuted without ignoring or marking out much of Scripture.

 

[SPB1987]

Aren't the same portions of creation condemned in your view?

What do you mean?

The Bible states many times that God is glorified both in the delivery of justice and the delivery of mercy. So whether God executes wrath against sin or mercy to forgive sin, He is glorified.

All religions except what we would believe is the true Christian religion has man's self-improvement or self-redemption as the purpose of creation. We believe the ultimate purpose of creation is to demonstrate the glory of God. I personally don't think this can refuted without ignoring or marking out much of Scripture.

I understand what you are saying about glorifying God. My point is, how exactly does creation glorify God if that creation can not even decide to accept the gift of salvation? I may be misunderstanding you but it appears that you believe that God decided who goes to heaven and who goes to hell before creation and there is nothing we can do to stop it.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

I understand what you are saying about glorifying God. My point is, how exactly does creation glorify God if that creation can not even decide to accept the gift of salvation? I may be misunderstanding you but it appears that you believe that God decided who goes to heaven and who goes to hell before creation and there is nothing we can do to stop it.

Why is creation even necessary for God to be glorified? Creation is not necessary for God to be glorified. However God is glorified in administering both justice and mercy to His creation.

The ability of humans to directly glorify God, can only come from faith, because without faith it is impossible to please Him. Since faith is a gift from God, and is birthed by God the Holy Spirit, saving faith is the work of God alone. So only regenerated humans, free from the bondage of sin by the grace of God, have the free agency to glorify God.

However, God is glorified indirectly as well. For example, we read...

Gen 50:20 “But as for you, you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, in order to bring it about as it is this day, to save many people alive."

God can take evil circumstances and work them together for good, for His glory.

Finally, creation testifies of the glory of God, the heavens declare the glory of God.

Ps 19:1"THE heavens declare the glory of God;
And the firmament shows His handiwork." (NKJV)

 

[Eddie L]

What do you mean?

You said..

How is condemning a significant portion of your creation glorifying?

That same portion of creation is condemned in your view and in ours. Do you believe God is only glorified if people believe in Jesus?

I understand what you are saying about glorifying God. My point is, how exactly does creation glorify God if that creation can not even decide to accept the gift of salvation?

They could decide to if they wanted to, but they don't want to, so they don't decide to. Their condemnation glorifies God because He delivers justice against sin.

I may be misunderstanding you but it appears that you believe that God decided who goes to heaven and who goes to hell before creation and there is nothing we can do to stop it.

I believe that God has saved the world by determining to save some of mankind through the work of Christ and the regeneration of the Spirit. I believe the Bible is clear that Adam's sin has resulted in every person born being in bondage to sin, and that the saving grace of God is the only thing that breaks that bondage. I believe the Bible says that God determined who He would save before they were born. I believe that the reason some people love Jesus is because God's grace has done its work in them.

I then believe that God is glorified in His righteous wrath against Adam and Adam's children because Hell is a form of triumph over sin. I also believe that God is glorified in the demonstration of His mercy in the gospel because the gospel is a glorious triumph over sin. Either way, God is glorified.

 

[SPB1987]

Why is creation even necessary for God to be glorified? Creation is not necessary for God to be glorified. However God is glorified in administering both justice and mercy to His creation.

The ability of humans to directly glorify God, can only come from faith, because without faith it is impossible to please Him. Since faith is a gift from God, and is birthed by God the Holy Spirit, saving faith is the work of God alone. So only regenerated humans, free from the bondage of sin by the grace of God, have the free agency to glorify God.

However, God is glorified indirectly as well. For example, we read...

Gen 50:20 “But as for you, you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, in order to bring it about as it is this day, to save many people alive."

God can take evil circumstances and work them together for good, for His glory.

Finally, creation testifies of the glory of God, the heavens declare the glory of God.

Ps 19:1"THE heavens declare the glory of God;
And the firmament shows His handiwork." (NKJV)

In regards to justice, is it really justice when the creation had no choice? The choice thing is what is getting me....what sense does it make that if God were real that we had no choice in accepting him? When you are forced to love, serve and follow(because you have no choice), would that not cheapen the faith? I am fully willing to admit that I may be understanding this completely wrong. This is an issue I grapple with a great deal.

 

[SPB1987]

You said..



That same portion of creation is condemned in your view and in ours. Do you believe God is only glorified if people believe in Jesus?



They could decide to if they wanted to, but they don't want to, so they don't decide to. Their condemnation glorifies God because He delivers justice against sin.



I believe that God has saved the world by determining to save some of mankind through the work of Christ and the regeneration of the Spirit. I believe the Bible is clear that Adam's sin has resulted in every person born being in bondage to sin, and that the saving grace of God is the only thing that breaks that bondage. I believe the Bible says that God determined who He would save before they were born. I believe that the reason some people love Jesus is because God's grace has done its work in them.

I then believe that God is glorified in His righteous wrath against Adam and Adam's children because Hell is a form of triumph over sin. I also believe that God is glorified in the demonstration of His mercy in the gospel because the gospel is a glorious triumph over sin. Either way, God is glorified.

Your okay with the idea that some of us are going to hell simply to glorify God? This concept does not seem odd to you in anyway? What true purpose does the creation have if they are not even granted the ability to choose? I just can not wrap my mind around this concept.

 

[Eddie L]

Your okay with the idea that some of us are going to hell simply to glorify God? This concept does not seem odd to you in anyway? What true purpose does the creation have if they are not even granted the ability to choose? I just can not wrap my mind around this concept.

First, wrapping our mind around what the Bible says isn't as important as believing what the Bible says. Too many people (and I'm not accusing you of this) approach the Bible with an attitude that they'll believe if it they like it. When our "I'll believe what I like" guard rails are removed and we approach the Bible with our eyes and ears open we can start to see the real beauty of the gospel.

People go to Hell because they sin, and they sin because they want to. That is true in my theology and (hopefully) in yours. God could have designed man any way He wanted, to suit absolutely any purpose. The decisions He made about creation and our design either led to where He knew and intended they would or He was caught by surprise somehow, or defeated by something. I can't accept that God was surprised or defeated because the Bible is clear that this isn't the view we should have. The Bible is also clear that God gets what He wants.

At the same time, man has a will and he chooses according to his desires, and he is held accountable for the choices that he makes (or granted the mercy to put the penalty of sinful choices on Christ).