What part of "We're not under the law" dont you understand?

[Cribstyl]

It's obvious to me that further dialog with RND is fruitless.

end of story.

 

[RND]

RND, any comment on the remainder of my post?

Nope.

I am particularly interested in whether you follow the word of God with respect to the passover?

Do as i say not as I do? Hey, did the Pharisees do that too? BTW, I "observe" passover in terms of dates.

the feast of weeks? Day of atonement? Do offer animal sacrifices on each seventh day?

There is no more sacrifice for sin so animal sacrifices are useless. And yes, I mark the dates of these festivals.

What does Romans 3 say? It certainly does not make the claim that we establish the law through obedience.

Sure it does.

What is the basis of your position that we establish the law through obedience?

Romans 4.

Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed (had faith in) God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Abraham listened to God. He heard Him. He obeyed Him. That's faith.

Because of his faith or because of his obedience? Tread carefully as you answer this question.

Why tread carefully? I'm not afraid of the position I hold and I'm not afraid of God for speaking it. If Adam displayed Abraham's faith I doubt we'd be in this mess right now and Christ would never have had to die.

Abraham's faith was displayed in his obedience.

They were found to be disobedient because they were disobedient.

Lack of faith. See Hebrews 3. They "hardened their hearts." They were unfaithful thus disobedient.

And yet we establish the law through faith, not obedience.

Again, the two go hand in hand. Can one have faith and be disobedient? Can a bank robber have faith in the atoning sacrifice of Jesus while sticking a gun in a tellers face?

And yet the whole world is a slave to sin.

Right, those that choose willfully to ignore God's good advice are indeed slaves to sin.

Jhn 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
Those that do no sin are not servants to it.

If your definition is correct, none establish the law.

I know lots of people that have established the law by their faith. Lots.

Much. Faith is the evidence of things unseen, not the evidence of things that can easily be seen.

So a man having an affair with his secretary can still display a great deal of faith in God all the time being disobedient? What kind of faith is that? The faith of disobedience.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

There is no more sacrifice for sin so animal sacrifices are useless.

I am sure that you are already aware that Biblical seventh-day sabbath keeping includes animal sacrifices. Is it your position that sabbath keeping is useless? If not, have you invented a new sabbath?

I know lots of people that have established the law by their faith.

The relevant point is that there are none who have established the law through their obedience.

Why tread carefully?

Because you seem to advocate a salvation that is by faith PLUS obedience.

those that choose willfully to ignore God's good advice are indeed slaves to sin.

Since the whole world is a slave to sin, how many people does this include?

BFA

 

[RND]

I am sure that you are already aware that Biblical seventh-day sabbath keeping includes animal sacrifices.

It used to.

Is it your position that sabbath keeping is useless?

No, I clearly said animals sacrifices were.

If not, have you invented a new sabbath?

Not at all, unless of course you feel animal sacrifices are necessary, then maybe I have according to you.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

It used to.



No, I clearly said animals sacrifices were.



Not at all, unless of course you feel animal sacrifices are necessary, then maybe I have according to you.

It would appear that you do not advocate for Biblical sabbath keeping, but rather for a form of sabbath keeping that was created by men.

BFA

 

[RND]

The relevant point is that there are none who have established the law through their obedience.

Sure they have.

Because you seem to advocate a salvation that is by faith PLUS obedience.

You mean one can be saved and be disobedient? Faith and obedience to the Word of God go hand in hand.

Read the story of the faithful centurion. He understood authority and faith. His faith revolved around the authority of Jesus.

Since the whole world is a slave to sin, how many people does this include?

The whole world isn't a "slave" to sin, that's the point you seem to be missing. People can, and do see sin for what it is, the separation point between them and the Savior. Through the work of the Savior and trust in His promises many work to eliminate sin from their lives. From my understanding there are loads of "new men" and "new women" in the world today and have been since the days of Christ.

 

[RND]

It would appear that you do not advocate for Biblical sabbath keeping, but rather for a form of sabbath keeping that was created by men.

Was it man that made the sacrifice of bulls and goats unnecessary?

 

[Byfaithalone1]

Was it man that made the sacrifice of bulls and goats unnecessary?

Was it man or God who said that seventh-day sabbath keeping must include animal sacrifices?

BFA

 

[Byfaithalone1]

Sure they have.

See 1 John 1:8. Those who claim obedience deceive themselves.

You mean one can be saved and be disobedient?

Indeed, I do. Paul is but one example (see Romans 7). You have just hit on the gospel of Jesus Christ. Salvation is for sinners.

Faith and obedience to the Word of God go hand in hand.

The very passage that we have been discussing (Romans 3) confirms that we are saved by grace through faith and not by works.

The whole world isn't a "slave" to sin

Your issue is with Galatians 3:22 not with me.

"But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe."
​

Through the work of the Savior and trust in His promises many work to eliminate sin from their lives.

This is a confusing statement. Is it through the work of the Savior or through the work of men? Please clarify.

BFA

 

[RND]

Was it man or God who said that seventh-day sabbath keeping must include animal sacrifices?

I'll take your non-answer as a no.

What you are attempting to suggest is that because there is no more "animal" sacrifices ergo there is no more duty to keep the sabbath. OK, that's fine. You are certainly entitled to that position. But a position such as that could easily be counter with, "Well Jesus died for me so therefore there is no more need to pray."

But I think you miss the fact that we have no more need to offer animal sacrifices but still have a need to offer spiritual sacrifices that are acceptable to the Lord.

1Pe 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.


Neither at any time has anyone suggested that Christians forsake the assembling of one to another.

Hbr 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some [is]; but exhorting [one another]: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
Now, to answer your question. It was God that said that lambs and bulls were to be sacrificed on sabbath as a type of Christ for His work of redemption on the sabbath. It was that very same God that sent His son to make animals sacrifices unnecessary - that there was no additional sacrifices needed. While the sacrifices pointed to Jesus the sabbath of God remains....forever. You are attempting fuzzy logic to make a nonsensical point.

 

[RND]

See 1 John 1:8. Those who claim obedience deceive themselves.

Obedience? You mean claiming to have no sin.

1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Indeed, I do. Paul is but one example (see Romans 7). You have just hit on the gospel of Jesus Christ. Salvation is for sinners.

Disobedience is the evidence of lawlessness. Don't you know that it is the disobedient that don't listen to God?

Tts 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny [him], being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

So one can accept Christ and continue a life of sin? When Christ said to the woman caught in adultery, "Go and sin no more" was He kidding? Giving her an impossible task?

The very passage that we have been discussing (Romans 3) confirms that we are saved by grace through faith and not by works.

Right, I agree and now I'll show you my faith by my works. Faith and works go together like peas and carrots.

Jam 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. am 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Your issue is with Galatians 3:22 not with me.

"But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe."​

Those that are "in Christ" are no longer "prisoners" to sin but "prisoners" to Christ. Christ has promised to deliver us from a life of sin, not a life of continual sin.

Phm 1:9 Yet for love's sake I rather beseech [thee], being such an one as Paul the aged, and now also a prisoner of Jesus Christ.
Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

This is a confusing statement. Is it through the work of the Savior or through the work of men? Please clarify.

It is a co-operative effort. One must have in their mind a willingness to work with the Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ to eliminate the degradation of sin in there life.

Mat 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
If one is claiming to be a "saved sinner" and gathering grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles and sharing those with others then we can certainly question that type of walk with God.

So just to suggest that we can come to Christ, ask for forgiveness, and continue on in the old lifes we have had is nothing scripture ever shares.

 

[Avonia]

So one can accept Christ and continue a life of sin? When Christ said to the woman caught in adultery, "Go and sin no more" was He kidding? Giving her an impossible task?

I am curious whether or not it matters to you that this passage was most likely not in the original manuscript. I'm not setting you up for a debate, I'm simply curious given your view and application of scripture.

 

[RND]

I am curious whether or not it matters to you that this passage was most likely not in the original manuscript.

Which one?

I'm not setting you up for a debate, I'm simply curious given your view and application of scripture.

I'd love to see bonafide proof that John 8 is not in the original letter of John.

 

[Avonia]

Which one?



I'd love to see bonafide proof that John 8 is not in the original letter of John.

So your position is that it was? That's fine. Just curious.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

Obedience? You mean claiming to have no sin.

1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.


Disobedience is the evidence of lawlessness. Don't you know that it is the disobedient that don't listen to God?

Tts 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny [him], being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

So one can accept Christ and continue a life of sin? When Christ said to the woman caught in adultery, "Go and sin no more" was He kidding? Giving her an impossible task?



Right, I agree and now I'll show you my faith by my works. Faith and works go together like peas and carrots.

Jam 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. am 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.


Those that are "in Christ" are no longer "prisoners" to sin but "prisoners" to Christ. Christ has promised to deliver us from a life of sin, not a life of continual sin.

Phm 1:9 Yet for love's sake I rather beseech [thee], being such an one as Paul the aged, and now also a prisoner of Jesus Christ.
Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.



It is a co-operative effort. One must have in their mind a willingness to work with the Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ to eliminate the degradation of sin in there life.

Mat 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
If one is claiming to be a "saved sinner" and gathering grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles and sharing those with others then we can certainly question that type of walk with God.

So just to suggest that we can come to Christ, ask for forgiveness, and continue on in the old lifes we have had is nothing scripture ever shares.

Do you believe that there will be humans who reach a state of absolute sinlessness prior to Christ's second coming?

If so, what is the Biblical basis for this belief?

BFA

 

[RND]

So your position is that it was? That's fine. Just curious.

I'm just looking to know which "original" manuscript John 8 was not in.

 

[RND]

Do you believe that there will be humans who reach a state of absolute sinlessness prior to Christ's second coming? If so, what is the Biblical basis for this belief?

No.

If a man were to reach that state he would no longer have a need for a Savior. We will dwell with the Savior forever as a result of clinging to Him and His righteousness. That said, I do believe man can reach a perfect level for the distaste of sin. Thus God is drawing him ever closer and closer to the Savior, our High Priest.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

No.

If a man were to reach that state he would no longer have a need for a Savior. We will dwell with the Savior forever as a result of clinging to Him and His righteousness. That said, I do believe man can reach a perfect level for the distaste of sin. Thus God is drawing him ever closer and closer to the Savior, our High Priest.

Do you believe there will come a time prior to Christ's second coming when we must stand in the sight of a holy God without a mediator? If we have any sin, will we be able to stand in the sight of a holy God without a mediator?

Do you believe that, at Christ's second coming, those who have died will come up from the grave with the same disposition they manifested in life?

Will the dead in Christ be changed, or will they remain unchanged? Will Jesus change the character of men at His coming?

Do you believe that what we will remain for all eternity exactly what we have made of ourselves prior to Christ's second coming?

BFA

 

[Avonia]

I'm just looking to know which "original" manuscript John 8 was not in.

I am wholly uninterested in debating this issue. I am interested in understanding the lucidity - or lack of - of individual conceptual models. I was curious if you had something to contribute given the precision you have shown in other posts.

 

[RND]

Do you believe there will come a time prior to Christ's second coming when we must stand in the sight of a holy God without a mediator?

Yes. But by that time the righteous will be sealed and the wicked will have made their choice.

Rev 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

If we have any sin, will we be able to stand in the sight of a holy God without a mediator?

Once we are sealed we will be yes.

Do you believe that, at Christ's second coming, those who have died will come up from the grave with the same disposition they manifested in life?

Depends. Saved or unsaved? The saved will possess a transformed character. They will still have the same attributes that made them unique creatures in God's Kingdom but they will not possess anything resembling their old sinful nature.

Will the dead in Christ be changed, or will they remain unchanged? Will Jesus change the character of men at His coming?

No.

The wheat and the tares will still be wheat and tares at harvest time.

Do you believe that what we will remain for all eternity exactly what we have made of ourselves prior to Christ's second coming?

No. Since eternity with Christ will be an ongoing learning experience then I believe our characters and nature will only improve.