What part of "We're not under the law" dont you understand?

[Byfaithalone1]

Yes. But by that time the righteous will be sealed and the wicked will have made their choice.

So, despite your earlier response to my question, you really do believe that man must at some point prior to Christ's second coming reach a state of sinlessness?

Rev 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

This statement coincides with Christ's second coming.

Once we are sealed we will be yes.

How will man be able to stand in the sight of a holy God without a mediator?

Does Ephesians 1:13-14, Ephesians 4:30, 2 Corinthians 1:21-22 and Romans 8:16 confirm your belief that "the sealing" is a future event?

Depends. Saved or unsaved? The saved will possess a transformed character. They will still have the same attributes that made them unique creatures in God's Kingdom but they will not possess anything resembling their old sinful nature.

Please compare and contrast your statement with the statement of your prophet found in 5T 466, 1885. How do you reconcile the two? Here's just a snippet from that page (I encourage you to read the entire chapter):

“It is a solemn thing to die, but a far more solemn thing to live. Every thought and word and deed of our lives will meet us again. What we make of ourselves in probationary time, that we must remain to all eternity. Death brings dissolution to the body, but makes no change in the character. The coming of Christ does not change our characters; it only fixes them forever beyond all change” (5T 466, 1885)
​

No.

Please compare and contrast your statement with the statement of your prophet found in 13MR82, 1891. How do you reconcile the two? Here's just a snippet from that page (I encourage you to read the entire chapter):

“If you would be a saint in heaven, you must first be a saint on earth. The traits of character you cherish in life will not be changed by death or by the resurrection. You will come up from the grave with the same disposition you manifested in your home and in society. Jesus does not change the character at His coming. The work of transformation must be done now. Our daily lives are determining our destiny. Defects of character must be repented of and overcome through the grace of Christ, and a symmetrical character must be formed while in this probationary state, that we may be fitted for the mansions above” (13MR82, 1891)
​

BFA

 

[RND]

So, despite your earlier response to my question, you really do believe that man must at some point prior to Christ's second coming reach a state of sinlessness?

I never said that that a man must be perfectly sinless prior to Christ's second coming. I said there will come a time that the righteous will be sealed and the wicked will have made their choice. When Christ comes back to the Earth for the resurrection He will no longer be serving in the Heavenly Sanctuary as mediator. He will be returning as Conquering King.

This statement coincides with Christ's second coming.

Ah, you're good! Can't slip nothing past you.

How will man be able to stand in the sight of a holy God without a mediator?

Because judgment will have been determined on the whole.

Rev 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

Does Ephesians 1:13-14, Ephesians 4:30, 2 Corinthians 1:21-22 and Romans 8:16 confirm your belief that "the sealing" is a future event?

Depends on what you are considering that "seal" to be I suppose. The Holy Spirit does the "sealing" it is not the "seal." Unfortunately this is such a common misconception.

Rev 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
Only those without the "seal" of God in their foreheads, that have not been "sealed" are to be hurt.

Please compare and contrast your statement with the statement of your prophet found in 5T 466, 1885. How do you reconcile the two? Here's just a snippet from that page (I encourage you to read the entire chapter):

“It is a solemn thing to die, but a far more solemn thing to live. Every thought and word and deed of our lives will meet us again. What we make of ourselves in probationary time, that we must remain to all eternity. Death brings dissolution to the body, but makes no change in the character. The coming of Christ does not change our characters; it only fixes them forever beyond all change” (5T 466, 1885)​

Actually, I see the same thought expressed two different ways. When I say the saved will possess a transformed character I'm referring to the constant change that our sinful nature could not obtain without Christ. Sanctification on earth. When Christ leaves the Heaven Sanctuary for earth the time for change is over.

Who we are transformed into during probation (life on earth during the High Priests ministry) and during sanctification is indeed the nature with will take with us to Heaven.

When Christ returns our nature's will not change, they will be set for all eternity. We will still have the same attributes that made them unique creatures in God's Kingdom but they will not possess anything resembling their old sinful nature.

Please compare and contrast your statement with the statement of your prophet found in 13MR82, 1891. How do you reconcile the two? Here's just a snippet from that page (I encourage you to read the entire chapter):

“If you would be a saint in heaven, you must first be a saint on earth. The traits of character you cherish in life will not be changed by death or by the resurrection. You will come up from the grave with the same disposition you manifested in your home and in society. Jesus does not change the character at His coming. The work of transformation must be done now. Our daily lives are determining our destiny. Defects of character must be repented of and overcome through the grace of Christ, and a symmetrical character must be formed while in this probationary state, that we may be fitted for the mansions above” (13MR82, 1891)​

I'm good with that. She is talking about the change from the "old man" to the "new man." The man that cherishes sin on earth, even though he says he is converted will noy be a saint in Heaven.

Now you asked me, "Will Jesus change the character of men at His coming?" I said no. EGW says the exact same thing.

What "ah ha" moment were you shooting for exactly?

 

[RND]

I am wholly uninterested in debating this issue.

Well, you hinted that John 8 was not in the original manuscripts so now you don't want to validate such a statement? Odd.

I am interested in understanding the lucidity - or lack of - of individual conceptual models.

Based on?

I was curious if you had something to contribute given the precision you have shown in other posts.

Regarding what? John 8 and it's veracity? It's real as far as I know.

 

[Avonia]

Well, you hinted that John 8 was not in the original manuscripts so now you don't want to validate such a statement?

I assumed it was obvious to you it was not in the earliest manuscripts. I was asking a question based on this assumption.

 

[RND]

I assumed it was obvious to you it was not in the earliest manuscripts. I was asking a question based on this assumption.

I'd never heard that. So, I take it as an assumption.

 

[Avonia]

I'd never heard that. So, I take it as an assumption.

There's some info here: Jesus and the woman taken in adultery - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[RND]

There's some info here: Jesus and the woman taken in adultery - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Thanks. That was some good information. I have to accept that, in some way, there certainly can be some question as to it being in the original manuscripts yet greatly comforted that "many scholars strongly defend the Johannine authorship of these verses."

That's good enough for me.

 

[Avonia]

Thanks.

You are welcome.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

I never said that that a man must be perfectly sinless prior to Christ's second coming.

You have now confirmed that you believe that man must take with him to Heaven the character that he forms here on earth. If man need not be perfectly sinless prior to Christ's second coming, is it your position that man will bring his sins with him to Heaven? At what point does man's character change?

Because judgment will have been determined on the whole.

Is a sinful man capable of standing in the sight of a holy God without a mediator?

Depends on what you are considering that "seal" to be I suppose.

I prefer to let the Bible define the seal. Ephesians 1:13-14, Ephesians 4:30, 2 Corinthians 1:21-22 and Romans 8:16 are pretty thorough.

The Holy Spirit does the "sealing" it is not the "seal."

Your claim doesn't line up with Scripture. Men have already been sealed, not only BY the Holy Spirit but also WITH the Holy Spirit.

Rev 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads. Only those without the "seal" of God in their foreheads, that have not been "sealed" are to be hurt.

Revelation 9:4 agrees with Ephesians 1:13-14, Ephesians 4:30, 2 Corinthians 1:21-22 and Romans 8:16 and confirms that the sealing has already taken place and is not a future event. These passages are not in conflict with one another.

When I say the saved will possess a transformed character I'm referring to the constant change that our sinful nature could not obtain without Christ. Sanctification on earth. When Christ leaves the Heaven Sanctuary for earth the time for change is over. Who we are transformed into during probation (life on earth during the High Priests ministry) and during sanctification is indeed the nature with will take with us to Heaven.

When I compare and contrast your statement with your prophet's, I note that she refers to "what we make of ourselves" and not "who we are transformed into during probation." According to Ellen G. White, this transformation is the result of that which "we make of ourselves." Please explain.

When Christ returns our natures will not change, they will be set for all eternity.

Interesting. You've indicated that man will not be sinless prior to Christ's second coming. And you've also indicated that our characters will not be changed when Christ returns. At what point does man become sinless? Will man bring sin with him into Heaven? Please explain.

What "ah ha" moment were you shooting for exactly?

I had no expectation. Just chatting. I don't know you well enough to know whether you are capable of "aha moments." It is God (not me) who produced all of my lightbulb moments.

BFA

 

[RND]

You have now confirmed that you believe that man must take with him to Heaven the character that he forms here on earth.

That's correct. What was the context in which I said that would happen?

If man need not be perfectly sinless prior to Christ's second coming, is it your position that man will bring his sins with him to Heaven?

No. Where did you get such a notion especially with clarity used in which I made my point?

"Who we are transformed into during probation (life on earth during the High Priests ministry) and during sanctification is indeed the nature with will take with us to Heaven."

At what point does man's character change?

When He accepts Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior of his life.

Is a sinful man capable of standing in the sight of a holy God without a mediator?

Yes. I answered that question previously. When Christ comes back to the Earth for the resurrection He will no longer be serving in the Heavenly Sanctuary as mediator. He will be returning as Conquering King.

I should clarify that I am referring to Jesus as "a Holy God." But I think you know that He is.

I prefer to let the Bible define the seal. Ephesians 1:13-14, Ephesians 4:30, 2 Corinthians 1:21-22 and Romans 8:16 are pretty thorough.

The Holy Spirit does the "sealing." It isn't the "seal."

Your claim doesn't line up with Scripture. Men have already been sealed, not only BY the Holy Spirit but also WITH the Holy Spirit.

BFA, are you aware that by and with are synonyms? Anyway, you point doesn't change mine at all for you said, "Men have already been sealed..."
Sealed would be the past tense in the process of being sealed, which is what I said. The Holy Spirit does the "sealing." It isn't the "seal."

Revelation 9:4 agrees with Ephesians 1:13-14, Ephesians 4:30, 2 Corinthians 1:21-22 and Romans 8:16 and confirms that the sealing has already taken place and is not a future event. These passages are not in conflict with one another.

This is the relation of a future event that John was seeing in vision. Is the HS in the forehead BFA? Is that where the HS dwells in man?

And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

When I compare and contrast your statement with your prophet's, I note that she refers to "what we make of ourselves" and not "who we are transformed into during probation." According to Ellen G. White, this transformation is the result of that which "we make of ourselves." Please explain.

It demonstrates the cooperative effect of working with God for the sanctification of the sinner. God will only eliminate the sin out of a persons life as that person is willing to cooperate with God in the removal of that sin. For example an alcoholic may want to quit drinking and turn his life around, and God is prepared and willing to help him.

But the alcoholic has to make the choice to stop drinking. He has to bring something to God, namely his will and desire to trust in God's work, to stop drinking. God is not just going to wave a magic wand, fold His arms, wiggle His nose and bounce His head and make the drunk a teetotaler. He has to be somewhat responsible in desiring the cooperation of God's provision to help.

The transformation we undergo during the sanctification process is the continuation of our desire to be changed by God....inside out and our willingness to cooperate with Him.

Interesting. You've indicated that man will not be sinless prior to Christ's second coming.

Correct.

And you've also indicated that our characters will not be changed when Christ returns.

Correct.

At what point does man become sinless?

One of two ways. At death or at the last trump.

Will man bring sin with him into Heaven? Please explain.

No. Haven't you read any scripture regarding this?

1Cr 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep (not all will physically die), but we shall all be changed (be given our glorified bodies),
1Cr 15:52 (When) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead (those sleeping in the grave) shall be raised incorruptible (sinless, unable to be corrupted), and we shall be changed (become sinless, unable to be corrupted).
1Cr 15:53 For this corruptible (sinful nature and body) must put on incorruption (the glorified sinless body and nature), and this mortal (subject to death)[must] put on immortality (not subject to death).

I had no expectation. Just chatting.

Fair enough.

I don't know you well enough to know whether you are capable of "aha moments."

I wasn't referring to what I might receive from this exchange hence my question, "What "ah ha" moment were you shooting for exactly?"

It is God (not me) who produced all of my lightbulb moments.

That's good.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

That's correct. What was the context in which I said that would happen?

No. Where did you get such a notion especially with clarity used in which I made my point?

"Who we are transformed into during probation (life on earth during the High Priests ministry) and during sanctification is indeed the nature with will take with us to Heaven."

When He accepts Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior of his life.

Yes. I answered that question previously. When Christ comes back to the Earth for the resurrection He will no longer be serving in the Heavenly Sanctuary as mediator. He will be returning as Conquering King.

I should clarify that I am referring to Jesus as "a Holy God." But I think you know that He is.

The Holy Spirit does the "sealing." It isn't the "seal."

BFA, are you aware that by and with are synonyms? Anyway, you point doesn't change mine at all for you said, "Men have already been sealed..."
Sealed would be the past tense in the process of being sealed, which is what I said. The Holy Spirit does the "sealing." It isn't the "seal."

This is the relation of a future event that John was seeing in vision. Is the HS in the forehead BFA? Is that where the HS dwells in man?

And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

It demonstrates the cooperative effect of working with God for the sanctification of the sinner. God will only eliminate the sin out of a persons life as that person is willing to cooperate with God in the removal of that sin. For example an alcoholic may want to quit drinking and turn his life around, and God is prepared and willing to help him.

But the alcoholic has to make the choice to stop drinking. He has to bring something to God, namely his will and desire to trust in God's work, to stop drinking. God is not just going to wave a magic wand, fold His arms, wiggle His nose and bounce His head and make the drunk a teetotaler. He has to be somewhat responsible in desiring the cooperation of God's provision to help.

The transformation we undergo during the sanctification process is the continuation of our desire to be changed by God....inside out and our willingness to cooperate with Him.

Correct.

Correct.

One of two ways. At death or at the last trump.

No. Haven't you read any scripture regarding this?

1Cr 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep (not all will physically die), but we shall all be changed (be given our glorified bodies),
1Cr 15:52 (When) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead (those sleeping in the grave) shall be raised incorruptible (sinless, unable to be corrupted), and we shall be changed (become sinless, unable to be corrupted).
1Cr 15:53 For this corruptible (sinful nature and body) must put on incorruption (the glorified sinless body and nature), and this mortal (subject to death)[must] put on immortality (not subject to death).
Fair enough.

I wasn't referring to what I might receive from this exchange hence my question, "What "ah ha" moment were you shooting for exactly?"

That's good.

RND, it seems that we agree that man will not sin in Heaven. It seems that we agree that sin exists today. My simple question to you is this:

Q: At what point does man become entirely sinless?
​

You have implied that man becomes entirely sinless "when He accepts Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior of his life." Please clarify whether this is--in fact--your position.

BFA

P.S. "BY" and "WITH" are not synonymous. If I tell you that I was sealed "BY" something, I am telling you about the agent that sealed me. If I tell you that I was sealed "WITH" something, I am telling you something about the seal itself.

 

[RND]

RND, it seems that we agree that man will not sin in Heaven. It seems that we agree that sin exists today. My simple question to you is this:

Q: At what point does man become entirely sinless?
​

You have implied that man becomes entirely sinless "when He accepts Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior of his life." Please clarify whether this is--in fact--your position.

BFA

Apparently BFA clarity is a difficult concept for some to grasp.

In answer to this question: "At what point does man become sinless?"

Came this response:

One of two ways. At death or at the last trump.

No. Haven't you read any scripture regarding this?

1Cr 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep (not all will physically die), but we shall all be changed (be given our glorified bodies),
1Cr 15:52 (When) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead (those sleeping in the grave) shall be raised incorruptible (sinless, unable to be corrupted), and we shall be changed (become sinless, unable to be corrupted).
1Cr 15:53 For this corruptible (sinful nature and body) must put on incorruption (the glorified sinless body and nature), and this mortal (subject to death)[must] put on immortality (not subject to death).

P.S. "BY" and "WITH" are not synonymous.

Yes they are. by definition | Dictionary.com

Synonyms:
11. By, through, with indicate agency or means of getting something done or accomplished. By is regularly used to denote the agent (person or force) in passive constructions: It is done by many; destroyed by fire. It also indicates means: Send it by airmail. With denotes the instrument (usually consciously) employed by an agent: He cut it with the scissors. Through designates particularly immediate agency or instrumentality or reason or motive: through outside aid; to yield through fear; wounded through carelessness.

If I tell you that I was sealed "BY" something, I am telling you about the agent that sealed me. If I tell you that I was sealed "WITH" something, I am telling you something about the seal itself.

No, that's not actually accurate because "with" could indicate both.

"I was sealed by the Holy Spirit" means the same thing as "I was sealed with the Holy Spirit." Both sentences indicate that a sealing was done from the Holy Spirit.

 

[2 King]

but we shall all be changed (be given our glorified bodies),

some copies read, "we shall all rise again, but we shall not all be changed", and so the Vulgate Latin version; according to which the sense is, all will rise again, both just and unjust, but all will not be changed into a state of glory; but the apostle is only speaking of the saints, of whom it is true, not only that they shall rise again, but shall be changed from corruption to incorruption; wherefore this cannot be a true reading: others read the words thus, "we shall all die, but we shall not all be changed"; and so the Ethiopic version and the Alexandrian copy seem to have read; which is just the reverse of the text, and arises from a wrong sense of (Hebrews 9:27) where it is not said, it is "appointed unto all men", but "unto men once to die"; from which rule there has been some exceptions, as the instances of Enoch and Elijah show; and there will be more at the time of Christ's coming, for all will not sleep in their graves, or die, for death is meant by sleeping; they will not die as men ordinarily do, and continue under the power of death, but they will be changed at once from corruption to incorruption, from dishonour to glory, from weakness to power, from being natural to be spiritual bodies; this change all the saints will undergo, whether dead or alive, at Christ's coming; the dead by a resurrection from the dead, and the living by a secret and sudden power, which will at once render their bodies, without separating them from their souls, immortal and glorious: and this reading and sense are confirmed by the Syriac and Arabic versions.

1Cr 15:53 For this corruptible (sinful nature and body) must put on incorruption (the glorified sinless body and nature), and this mortal (subject to death)[must] put on immortality (not subject to death).

the body that now is mortal, must become immortal; it must put off its rags of mortality, and be clothed with the shining robes of immortality; and which must be done, either by first dying, and then rising from the dead; or by undergoing alive a quick and sudden change, which will at once remove all corruption and mortality; Look---

``He answered and said unto me, These be they that have put off the mortal clothing, and put on the immortal, and have confessed the name of God: now are they crowned, and receive palms.'' (2 Esdras 2:45)
​

 

[Byfaithalone1]

Apparently BFA clarity is a difficult concept for some to grasp.

Indeed.

In answer to this question: "At what point does man become sinless?"
Came this response:
One of two ways. At death or at the last trump.

Interesting. And yet your prophet claims that there will be no change at the last trump (a position you claim to agree with).

So which is it? Are we changed at the last trump or at some point prior to the last trump? We know that it is the position of your prophet that we are changed prior to the last trump. Are you prepared to confirm that you disagree with your prophet on this point?

"I was sealed by the Holy Spirit" means the same thing as "I was sealed with the Holy Spirit." Both sentences indicate that a sealing was done from the Holy Spirit.

Although such a conclusion would be convenient for your position, it isn't grounded in the passages themselves:

"And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession-to the praise of his glory." Eph 1:13-14

"Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption." Eph 4:30

"He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come." 2 Cor 1:21-22


"The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children." Rom 8:16
​

Horses are branded BY their owners. They are not branded WITH their owners. Rather, they are branded WITH the ranch brand.

I am sealed BY the agent who seals me. I am not sealed WITH the agent who seals me. Rather, I am sealed WITH the seal.

BFA

 

[RND]

Interesting. And yet your prophet claims that there will be no change at the last trump (a position you claim to agree with).

No change in character.

So which is it? Are we changed at the last trump or at some point prior to the last trump? We know that it is the position of your prophet that we are changed prior to the last trump. Are you prepared to confirm that you disagree with your prophet on this point?

We are made sinless at the last trump. Our characters are perfected before then. You are making this out to be much more difficult than it is.

Although such a conclusion would be convenient for your position, it isn't grounded in the passages themselves:

"And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession-to the praise of his glory." Eph 1:13-14

"Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption." Eph 4:30

"He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come." 2 Cor 1:21-22


"The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children." Rom 8:16​

Context.

Horses are branded BY their owners. They are not branded WITH their owners. Rather, they are branded WITH the ranch brand.

What does the owner brand the horse "with?"

Horses are branded BY their owners, with a branding iron.

I am sealed BY the agent who seals me. I am not sealed WITH the agent who seals me. Rather, I am sealed WITH the seal.

I am sealed BY the agent who seals me. Sealed with (by) the Holy Spirit.

If you have issue with this take it up with the Dictionary.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

No change in character.

If there is no change of character at the last trump, then man must have become sinless prior to the last trump.

We are made sinless at the last trump.

Huh? You just said that there was no change of character at the last trump.

Our characters are perfected before then.

So we are sinless prior to the last trump?

You are making this out to be much more difficult than it is.

Hmmmm. Not really. I believe that the character is changed at the second coming, that at the second coming the corruptible puts on incorruption. My view is actually quite simple.

In contrast, your view includes two conflicting beliefs that are impossible to reconcile--that the character does not change at the second coming and that man becomes sinless at the second coming.

Context.

Which is?

Horses are branded BY their owners, with a branding iron.

Thank you for providing a sterling example of the fact that the use of BY is not the same as the use of WITH. As you have demonstrated, the two terms are not synonymous. If we were to take your view of "BY" and "WITH," we would have to conclude that horses are branded by their owners with their owners.

I am sealed BY the agent who seals me. Sealed with (by) the Holy Spirit.

To the praise of His glorious grace, your view runs contrary to Scripture and to the gospel. Rather, I am sealed by the Father with the Spirit. Consider the following:

NASB: "In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory."

KJV: "In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory."

ESV: "In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory."

NIV: "And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession—to the praise of his glory."
​

Who guarantees what is to come? Has this already happened or is it yet to come?

BFA

 

[RND]

If there is no change of character at the last trump, then man must have become sinless prior to the last trump.

If that's your opinion that's great. A man's character is changed throughout the sanctification process where as He beholds Christ the man becomes "Christ like" in nature and character.

If you believe otherwise that's fine.

Huh? You just said that there was no change of character at the last trump.

I think the disconnect is that you seem to consistently want to associate sinlessness with character. A changed character leads a man to have a heightened sense of hated for sin in his life. That is not to say he will not sin, just that he becomes much more aware of what sin really is.

The connection you are attempting to associate with me was never asserted by me in anyway.

So we are sinless prior to the last trump?

What did I plainly suggest?

Hmmmm. Not really. I believe that the character is changed at the second coming, that at the second coming the corruptible puts on incorruption. My view is actually quite simple.

Well, I would suggest you don't have a very good understanding of the sanctification process. One has to desire a change in their lives to accept the trial of sanctification that the converted heart needs.

In contrast, your view includes two conflicting beliefs that are impossible to reconcile--that the character does not change at the second coming and that man becomes sinless at the second coming.

Again, that was never suggested by me. I try and go slower.

The sanctification process allows for us to be declared "safe" for heavenly service. It is a gradual process where the nature of a man is converted over time. At death, or at the second coming, Jesus returns to redeem the redeemable.

Which is?

I'm not certain you understand the plain meaning of the scriptures you quoted and thus the context in which you used them may not be fully understood.

Thank you for providing a sterling example of the fact that the use of BY is not the same as the use of WITH. As you have demonstrated, the two terms are not synonymous. If we were to take your view of "BY" and "WITH," we would have to conclude that horses are branded by their owners with their owners.

BFA, I think your issue is with the dictionary....not me.

with definition | Dictionary.com

Synonyms:
4. See by.

I am sealed by the Father with the Spirit

No, you are sealed "in" the Father "with" the Holy Spirit.

KJV: "In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory."

 

[Byfaithalone1]

If that's your opinion that's great. A man's character is changed throughout the sanctification process where as He beholds Christ the man becomes "Christ like" in nature and character.

If you believe otherwise that's fine.



I think the disconnect is that you seem to consistently want to associate sinlessness with character. A changed character leads a man to have a heightened sense of hated for sin in his life. That is not to say he will not sin, just that he becomes much more aware of what sin really is.

The connection you are attempting to associate with me was never asserted by me in anyway.



What did I plainly suggest?



Well, I would suggest you don't have a very good understanding of the sanctification process. One has to desire a change in their lives to accept the trial of sanctification that the converted heart needs.



Again, that was never suggested by me. I try and go slower.

The sanctification process allows for us to be declared "safe" for heavenly service. It is a gradual process where the nature of a man is converted over time. At death, or at the second coming, Jesus returns to redeem the redeemable.



I'm not certain you understand the plain meaning of the scriptures you quoted and thus the context in which you used them may not be fully understood.



BFA, I think your issue is with the dictionary....not me.

with definition | Dictionary.com

Synonyms:
4. See by.




No, you are sealed "in" the Father "with" the Holy Spirit.

KJV: "In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory."

If I believe that the character of a man does not change at Christ's second coming, can I simultaneously believe that the corruptible will put on incorruption at Christ's second coming? I am at a loss to reconcile these concepts.

How do we separate sinlessness from character? Though I don't believe they are synonymous terms, I cannot conclude that they are unrelated terms.

If a person is sealed by God, is that sealing a past, present or future event? What does the Bible say?

Where can I find Biblical confirmation for your belief that the sanctification process makes a man safe for Heaven?

BFA

 

[Joshua J. Daigle]

I see that topics are still deep and heavy on the SDA forums. Guess that's why I come back here time and time again; always something of interest to read.