What is Wrong with going to Church?

[SteelDisciple]

I have a question.



I been seeing posts in this section where a poster doesn’t like other Christians pushing the idea one must go to church. OK being pushy is bad. But:



My question is: just what is wrong with going to church? Wherein lies the objection?



I am sure this question will be interpreted as an attack by some, but so what! I just want to understand the rationale behind the home church idea.



My personal view is that going to a church can only benefit the Christian. Plus a church is a public presence that can reach out to the community. If nothing else, it is listed in the phone book so someone looking for fellowship, counsel or salvation can simply give the church a call and find someone to talk to. I don’t this as being possible with a home fellowship group.

Church is mainly for fellowship. But every church i've gone to, i've never found anyone I could get any deep fellowship from. Just the typical "hi, how are you?" I learn more from a particular TV preacher than I do from going to church.

No fellowship..what's the point of going?

 

[New_Wineskin]

Try turning off some of the graphics in your cf profile settings...maybe having all those up are slowing things down? (Or turn them off in your browser prefs.)

Thanks . I am attempting that now .

This may actually help a lot . You win all of my blessings .

 

[New_Wineskin]

On a note of constructive criticism.

Having a building which only opens once or twice a week for services is a big waste of a building. If a church was more like a community centre and less like the forbidden city then this would be better.

Not to mention farmland . I am in a heavy area with many Christian groups and a lot of money and groups are trying to outdo each other . They buy up farmland nad build bigger and bigger buildings and leave the old monstrousities behind . They take away land that could feed the hungry so that they can look big .

 

[New_Wineskin]

I was at a church where they considered adding on a room with a separate locking system that could be open all night. The intent was for a 24-hour HOP (house of prayer, as in music and prophetic). I think they gave this up after looking at safety and liability issues, the possibility of people wandering in (cough cough). I've seen this concept work with college library study rooms, with adequate (armed?) security.

I've been in churches with Wednesdays-only, and ones with 18-hour full parking lots. The overactive ones tended to focus inward, get picky, have driven and exhausted members and clergy on the verge of nervous breakdowns. But I agree--businesses use their space.

One church I attended rented the sanctuary to other emerging churches, ones with small enough congregations that they didn't need a full building. This proved a warm ecumenical gesture, and it was nice to bump into others in transit.

These space issues are an incredibly good reason for house churches. They seem related to what God is doing in shaking up a lot of edifices these days...preparing for a different economy or societal situation.

That reminds me of when I grew up . It was a town of about 10,000 and well over 90% Catholics . It was split up into three parishes and a main building for each . When I was small , these were open all day ( from what I remember ) . When I was in my late teens , this stopped for some reason . I have always wondered why . We had very little crime and almost all of the citizens were of the same group . I still scratch my head over that .

 

[GlobalNomad1960]

Nice one, but I guess yer American?
I see whatcha saying, after all Homer stayed home on Sundays... gr8 episode!
I'll let some others talk, but I find it intersting how many peeps leave church-organisations to save their relationship with God!!!

As an American, I must say, your comment about Americans is funny and faily accurate.

GlobalNomad1960

 

[GlobalNomad1960]

Many episodes of The Simpsons concerning mainstream christianity are "spot on" . If only people in those groups would "get it" .

Amen

 

[GlobalNomad1960]

What if someone at the time of the Reformation said they don't go to church because of the hypocrites??? At the time it was true that there was a lot of hypocrisy everywhere. Even the RCC had to call for the Counter-Reformation to clean it up. However, the Protestants said the real source of the hypocrisy was that the RCC was based on incorrect theology, on human tradition rather than the Bible alone. Still, for the average attender it must have seemed discouraging.

Some people have tried a lot of local churches, a whole lot, and have found too much hypocrisy, as well as irrelevance. To them, it's not a matter of just trying one more--in a lot of areas, they are all the same. Then, they can just give up, or they can give more thought to how to find a church that is truly spiritual and relevant to their lives. In that thought process, the emergent church movement arouse and continues to acquire energy. People study Scripture to try to understand how church really should be and why so many churches seem dead. And, then they realize the congregational church as it is practiced today isn't in the Bible, that it's just based on human traditions, and that this human focus is in large part why things don't seem truly of the Christian spirit. Then, they try the biblical model of church structure (which is never taught in the congregational church, but still it never left the Bible), and all of a sudden they have a relevant and exciting church experience.

I give these people who don't go to church a break now. I don't judge them. The problem is not them, but a whole lot of patience is needed under their circumstances for them to come to a proper solution to being a part of a spiritual community.

And, I don't judge those people who can't give up their cherished traditions in continuing to attend a church that is really mostly based on human tradition. We are still united in the blood of Christ. They just do church different. Catholics do church very different--but they are still my brothers and sisters in the blood of Christ (but those of the Base Ecclesial movement, the RCC branch of the emergent church, perhaps, are even more so).

Regards,

Paul

Excellent answer, and in love, too!

 

[FLANDIDLYANDERS]

It's true. The important thing to bearinmind in allof our Church-going or leaving is that we are all one body. Personally,I graspthis a wholenot easier now my whole church went unchurched!

 

[GlobalNomad1960]

Good point!!!!!!

I told the pastor of the instutional church I attend that I am weary of "back-of-the-head" Christianity. I want Jesus and community with the Living Sones of the Church.

 

[GlobalNomad1960]

On a note of constructive criticism.

Having a building which only opens once or twice a week for services is a big waste of a building. If a church was more like a community centre and less like the forbidden city then this would be better.

Imagine if you needed prayer, help, money, counselling for suicidal thoughts a place to sleep- whoever you were- you could head for the church building. If you knew the church was open 24/7 and there for you. if you knew thats what a church was- God's help centre for you. Whoever, whenever, whatever could come. Come all you who are weary and heavy laden! Then you would get the needy and lost coming in. Afterall, thats what Jesus did, met people at their point of need -whenever and whoever!

At the moment the church eats money and puts on a weekly show. They do a couple of outreach projects with a fraction of what they take in and for a couple of hours a week.

Lismore

AMEN!

 

[GlobalNomad1960]

Church is mainly for fellowship. But every church i've gone to, i've never found anyone I could get any deep fellowship from. Just the typical "hi, how are you?" I learn more from a particular TV preacher than I do from going to church.

No fellowship..what's the point of going?

Good point. It has taken us YEARS to met people with whom we could "conncect." Then, at least one of those people is looking to attend a home church, as am my wife and I, but we are all wondering when will we be ready? Until that day, with God's guidance, we meet on Tuesdays and do expository Bible study and praying for one another.
It helps. Keep us in your prayers.

GlobalNomad1960

 

[GlobalNomad1960]

Not to mention farmland . I am in a heavy area with many Christian groups and a lot of money and groups are trying to outdo each other . They buy up farmland nad build bigger and bigger buildings and leave the old monstrousities behind . They take away land that could feed the hungry so that they can look big .

That is a shame.

 

[BeforeThereWas]

I told the pastor of the instutional church I attend that I am weary of "back-of-the-head" Christianity. I want Jesus and community with the Living Sones of the Church.

I would venture to say that your comments were not well received. Organizational leadership tend to accept only the criticisms that do not indicate a need for THEM to change in a way that removes the limelight from THEM. I actually suggested once to the organization my wife attends that they do away with those wooden pews, purchase Lazy-Boy recliners, and sit together like a family. Well, that was not at all well received. It went mostly ignored, so I stopped going. It has disturbed my wife ever since. I told her that I am not angry with them, but that they are doing what they want to do, and I simply choose not to be a part of it. I doubt she will ever get over her difficulty with my decision, especially considering that she is related in some way to almost everyone in that group.

BTW

 

[New_Wineskin]

I told the pastor of the instutional church I attend that I am weary of "back-of-the-head" Christianity. I want Jesus and community with the Living Sones of the Church.

I can imagine the person thinking : But you get to see *my* face ! Isn't *that* enough ?

 

[discernomatic]

Good point. It has taken us YEARS to met people with whom we could "conncect." Then, at least one of those people is looking to attend a home church, as am my wife and I, but we are all wondering when will we be ready? Until that day, with God's guidance, we meet on Tuesdays and do expository Bible study and praying for one another.
It helps. Keep us in your prayers.

Sure, I'll keep you in my prayers, but I don't see why you want a change. Your group sounds like heaven to me already. I think you already have a house church. Just be careful about using existing prepared programs. All purport to genuinely and sincerely assist believers, but at least some of them just want to gather and control the "unchurched". I am thinking of founding such a group as you already have. At the moment I have - count 'em - "one", "two" Christian friends living nearby that desperately want me to become a member of their church. I attend occasionally just to be with my friends, but they teach false doctrine there. That church is not an option for me.

 

[GlobalNomad1960]

I can imagine the person thinking : But you get to see *my* face ! Isn't *that* enough ?

LOL. Actually, I think he thinks he is doing what he is called to do. He's a good guy. He sortof used the phrase from the stage on a Sunday morning emploring people to "do life together" and to interact beyond Sunday mornings.

By the way, have any of you read any Frank Viola's books??

GN1960

 

[SteelDisciple]

Going to church i've found that alot of christians tend to be bland, uninteresting people who prefer to stay in their cliques rather then venture out and meet new people... :/

 

[New_Wineskin]

LOL. Actually, I think he thinks he is doing what he is called to do. He's a good guy. He sortof used the phrase from the stage on a Sunday morning emploring people to "do life together" and to interact beyond Sunday mornings.

Interesting . Yeah . He is only a product of the system . I find it interesting that these people will encourage "community" beyond Sunday but there is little during that Sunady meeting . *That* is a huge part of the problem that they don't see .

By the way, have any of you read any Frank Viola's books??

I met him once and I was on a mailing list with him for a while . I won't read his books for good reason . Somehow , I was on a mailing list for his books . I replied that I didn't wish to be on a mailing list for his books and was given a reply that they were sorry that I believed the bad reports concerning him . I didn't mention a thing about any bad reports . I found some people who knew what was going on and , because of that reply , it appears that they are accurate .

 

[discernomatic]

I just went to Frank Viola's website and found an interview promoting one of his books. A small analysis may give insight. http://www.openheaven.com/forums/forum_posts.asp?TID=5727&PN=1:
"I have watched people try to start their own house churches who were not called or qualified to do it.In every case, I saw nothing good come of it. Most of these groups were simply glorified Bible studies that were facilitated by the person who started the group....We made many mistakes and tried some very foolish things. But we learned. And in the midst of it we touched authentic Body life......We need a new seeing of the Lord Jesus Christ and of God’s eternal purpose which is in Him.....In other words, we need those who are able to impart life, to cast vision, and to provide practical tools that will put believers into the living reality of that vision."

I am reading a work by someone that uses similar reasoning so picked up on some things right away.

1. First you see what I call a double insult. (Sometimes such statements can be phrased as a compliment hiding an insult.) Those who tried to start house churches without what he names "calling" and "qualification" are doomed to fail, so don't even try. At the same time he insults the concept of bible studies as being something inferior to the house church idea that he is proposing. He is also implying that a bible study cannot be a house church. Why not? "For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them." Matthew 18:20. With Mr. Viola as subject of the interview, the reader is to accept his authority on the matter and apply it to all that is being said.

2. He admits to making mistakes and being foolish. In this case this is a tactic to wake sympathy in the reader. Other ways of doing this are telling jokes or stories about ones failures, not simply out of honesty, but for a reason - to create sympathy or even empathy. If the reader can sympathize with the author for whatever reason, he will more likely accept what that person has to say.

3. He then states that he found an answer, he "touched authentic Body life". This statement will especially appeal to and draw the emotionally motivated, which are often the easiest to manipulate. He claims to have found the real thing, as so many do, which may trap the so-called "seeker".

4. For the first half of the article he is dismantling the concepts that many think of that hold to the traditional way of conducting a church body. He attacks all groups whether Protestant or Catholic, Charismatic, Third-Wave or traditional. He is performing a miniature version of Schein's stages of cult manipulation called Unfreezing, Changing and Refreezing. For a table see: http://www.rickross.com/reference/cults_in_our_midst/cults_in_our_midst2.html it will be the second table on the page or go to my page: http://www.jamesfive19.com/Abuse_of_Pastoral_Authority.html and scroll down to find the table. Make a person unsure of what he thinks of as secure, manipulate him into considering another option and then make sure he keeps that new position. In this case there was probably an offer for his book after the interview which, if bought, would refreeze the person's mode of thought to Frank Victor's view of things. In fact the interview was a miniature version of what is said to be contained in the book.

5. The Changing takes place in all of the above statements but especially with the ones about a need for a new way of seeing God's eternal purpose...after disposing of the old-fasioned, inefficient, undesireable ways, he offers a ray of light that one can grasp for. He tries to impart a new vision that seems brighter and clearer to the reader than that which has been denounced. And who is going to lead this new order? The key phrase is: "We need those who are able....to provide practical tools that will put believers into the living reality of that vision." And that, of course, means him and his materials and program.

The whole article was a sales pitch, offering to impart life and a new vision of God's eternal purpose. That of course costs money (although I ask myself why it should have to, the Holy Spirit didn't cost anything).

I have nothing against people offering products if they can deliver. But in spiritual matters these things can be very dubious. And if someone is purposefully trying to manipulate me in the way I described above, I have a good reason not to trust him from the beginning. And I have not even gotten into Frank Viola's theology yet! This is just the beginning of the analysis process.

 

[GlobalNomad1960]

I just went to Frank Viola's website and found an interview promoting one of his books. A small analysis may give insight. http://www.openheaven.com/forums/forum_posts.asp?TID=5727&PN=1:
"I have watched people try to start their own house churches who were not called or qualified to do it.In every case, I saw nothing good come of it. Most of these groups were simply glorified Bible studies that were facilitated by the person who started the group....We made many mistakes and tried some very foolish things. But we learned. And in the midst of it we touched authentic Body life......We need a new seeing of the Lord Jesus Christ and of God’s eternal purpose which is in Him.....In other words, we need those who are able to impart life, to cast vision, and to provide practical tools that will put believers into the living reality of that vision."

I am reading a work by someone that uses similar reasoning so picked up on some things right away.

1. First you see what I call a double insult. (Sometimes such statements can be phrased as a compliment hiding an insult.) Those who tried to start house churches without what he names "calling" and "qualification" are doomed to fail, so don't even try. At the same time he insults the concept of bible studies as being something inferior to the house church idea that he is proposing. He is also implying that a bible study cannot be a house church. Why not? "For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them." Matthew 18:20. With Mr. Viola as subject of the interview, the reader is to accept his authority on the matter and apply it to all that is being said.

2. He admits to making mistakes and being foolish. In this case this is a tactic to wake sympathy in the reader. Other ways of doing this are telling jokes or stories about ones failures, not simply out of honesty, but for a reason - to create sympathy or even empathy. If the reader can sympathize with the author for whatever reason, he will more likely accept what that person has to say.

3. He then states that he found an answer, he "touched authentic Body life". This statement will especially appeal to and draw the emotionally motivated, which are often the easiest to manipulate. He claims to have found the real thing, as so many do, which may trap the so-called "seeker".

4. For the first half of the article he is dismantling the concepts that many think of that hold to the traditional way of conducting a church body. He attacks all groups whether Protestant or Catholic, Charismatic, Third-Wave or traditional. He is performing a miniature version of Schein's stages of cult manipulation called Unfreezing, Changing and Refreezing. For a table see: http://www.rickross.com/reference/cults_in_our_midst/cults_in_our_midst2.html it will be the second table on the page or go to my page: http://www.jamesfive19.com/Abuse_of_Pastoral_Authority.html and scroll down to find the table. Make a person unsure of what he thinks of as secure, manipulate him into considering another option and then make sure he keeps that new position. In this case there was probably an offer for his book after the interview which, if bought, would refreeze the person's mode of thought to Frank Victor's view of things. In fact the interview was a miniature version of what is said to be contained in the book.

5. The Changing takes place in all of the above statements but especially with the ones about a need for a new way of seeing God's eternal purpose...after disposing of the old-fasioned, inefficient, undesireable ways, he offers a ray of light that one can grasp for. He tries to impart a new vision that seems brighter and clearer to the reader than that which has been denounced. And who is going to lead this new order? The key phrase is: "We need those who are able....to provide practical tools that will put believers into the living reality of that vision." And that, of course, means him and his materials and program.

The whole article was a sales pitch, offering to impart life and a new vision of God's eternal purpose. That of course costs money (although I ask myself why it should have to, the Holy Spirit didn't cost anything).

I have nothing against people offering products if they can deliver. But in spiritual matters these things can be very dubious. And if someone is purposefully trying to manipulate me in the way I described above, I have a good reason not to trust him from the beginning. And I have not even gotten into Frank Viola's theology yet! This is just the beginning of the analysis process.

Please provide your analogy of the theology?