What is Wrong with going to Church?

[BeforeThereWas]

I just went to Frank Viola's website and found an interview promoting one of his books.

Ah, yes. Frank Viola, and gang. Frank Viola is a product of Gene Edwards, and his eletist crowd of thinkers. They view themselves as being some of the only TRUE "church planters" on this continent. They have even traveled to Romania to foist their experiment upon a group over there, that way they would not have to face charges here where they live. (Just kidding.) There are others who have been very successful in planting functional home fellowships that have been together for more than 15 years now, and those people didn't have to move into the same neighborhood community, within a stone's throw of each other, for it to work. Gene and Frank's systems are very dependent upon locational structuring of the people. One of the difficulties with this is that most families are not able to move into neighborhoods with higher-end housing, so those of better means must step down into more shabby housing and neighborhoods in order to be a part of such an endeavor. To Gene and Frank, this is trivial, which is understandable to those who have always been pretty much stuck to living in shabby conditions.

I could go on for hours, having spent time with Gene, Tim, Frank, and some of their groups. They are not at all the shining stars these men make them out to be. In print, they make it all look like it is a sure thing with the right leaders at the helm trained and approved by the elite of this system.

I will admit that I learned much from these men, but you know, if these men truly had a handle on conquering human nature like they think they have, then the Lord pales in comparison, because He could not conquer the fallen human condition until He went to the Cross. All these guys do is orchestrate a system of thought that still has not proven itself. I looked upon their "evidence" in places like Atlanta (which fell apart, reformed, and then fell apart again), Chicago (which was in serious crisis and was in the advance stages of breaking apart when I visited), Denver (which had some serious problems that were VERY evident to the careful observer) and Texas (which has no real, genuine and steady membership).

Sorry, Gene, Frank, Tim and gang. I've looked upon, and spent time with, your "shining stars," and that "shine" was mostly reflections from other more stable elements that you had nothing at all to do with in creating.

Those men will never be able to effectively steal the glory that belongs only to the Lord.

BTW

 

[BeforeThereWas]

I just went to Frank Viola's website and found an interview promoting one of his books.

The website you provided the link for outlines the tactical cult methodology very similar to the tactics taught to "ministers" who attend seminary. How very interesting.

BTW

 

[discernomatic]

Please provide your analogy of the theology?

I have not gotten around to writing about him yet and do not have the time nor the space to put a full article in here. But from surfing around his site, I think that it is quite clear that he is one of the "Joel's army" proponents, a known false doctrine. Here an excerpt from: A Major Shift Has Occurred In The Spiritual Realm - Ron McGatlin, http://www.openheaven.com/articles/kingdom_revival/article.asp?id=106. "They are destined to become "New Jerusalem" people of God - the heart of the true spiritual Israel of God - the "Christ in you" people - the "Joel's army" who will become the defenders of the faith - the warriors of God, the intercessors that will claim the kingdoms of this world for the kingdom of our God. These are the ones in whom Christ dwells and to whom a door into heavenly oneness with God is opening wide."
Just the emotional, dreamy and idealized style of the language gives away much if you read further on in the article. I have met people so deep in that kind of deception that they are unable to converse or think normally anymore, they start trailing off in euphoric and idealized statements that have been fed to them at church. I think that this particular house church program is nothing different than the deceptions offered in some churches, the only difference is that you buy it and eat it at home, like take-out pizza.

Here are some links about the "Joel's army/Sons of God/Latter Rain/Spiritual Warfare" concept:
http://www.intotruth.org/res/lastdl3.html
http://www.letusreason.org/Latrain10.htm
http://www.cephasministry.com/index_joels_army.html
And Kindom Now Theology/Dominion/Reconstructionism concept:
http://www.intotruth.org/res/kt1.html
http://www.apologeticsindex.org/l04.html
http://religiousmovements.lib.virginia.edu/nrms/ChRecon.html

The above concepts are all linked to a large degree. They are being offered regularly in some mainline and independent churches and now, apparently as a part of home church packages. Where these concepts are offered makes no difference, they are false doctrine. If you analyze Viola's statements carefully, he is offering his system to the unchurched, those that feel disgruntled by and dissatisfied with the traditional church system. But it is my opinion that if anyone buys into his system, they will go from the frying pan into the fire. I favor home churches as a concept, especially for those trying to avoid false doctrine in larger churches, but I would stay as far away from this sort of doctrine as possible.

 

[discernomatic]

The website you provided the link for outlines the tactical cult methodology very similar to the tactics taught to "ministers" who attend seminary. How very interesting.

BTW

Oooh! How nasty! What seminary?

 

[GlobalNomad1960]

Thanks to everyone for your insightful input. God bless.

GN1960

 

[SteelDisciple]

you know..i'm amazed at how many christians come up with so many stupid ideas. Like cussing being alright in the eyes of God...or living with your girlfriend and not marrying them...or that the bible isn't completely true (of course the only parts that are wrong are the parts that disagree with their lifestyle)

The best way to stay right with God is to follow God's word...NOT get into other garbage that's written by OTHER people...and to let the Holy Spirit guide you and answer the questions you have about God's word. The Holy Spirit is an undeniable presence. All you have to do is pray and ask and God WILL tell you. It's as simple as that...people try to look into theolgy and other books to get the answers when they have a direct connection with God to ask him anything and He will answer. Man...people are really screwed up.

 

[New_Wineskin]

I just went to Frank Viola's website and found an interview promoting one of his books. A small analysis may give insight. http://www.openheaven.com/forums/forum_posts.asp?TID=5727&PN=1:
"I have watched people try to start their own house churches who were not called or qualified to do it.In every case, I saw nothing good come of it. Most of these groups were simply glorified Bible studies that were facilitated by the person who started the group....We made many mistakes and tried some very foolish things. But we learned. And in the midst of it we touched authentic Body life......We need a new seeing of the Lord Jesus Christ and of God’s eternal purpose which is in Him.....In other words, we need those who are able to impart life, to cast vision, and to provide practical tools that will put believers into the living reality of that vision."

I am reading a work by someone that uses similar reasoning so picked up on some things right away.

1. First you see what I call a double insult. (Sometimes such statements can be phrased as a compliment hiding an insult.) Those who tried to start house churches without what he names "calling" and "qualification" are doomed to fail, so don't even try. At the same time he insults the concept of bible studies as being something inferior to the house church idea that he is proposing. He is also implying that a bible study cannot be a house church. Why not? "For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them." Matthew 18:20. With Mr. Viola as subject of the interview, the reader is to accept his authority on the matter and apply it to all that is being said.

2. He admits to making mistakes and being foolish. In this case this is a tactic to wake sympathy in the reader. Other ways of doing this are telling jokes or stories about ones failures, not simply out of honesty, but for a reason - to create sympathy or even empathy. If the reader can sympathize with the author for whatever reason, he will more likely accept what that person has to say.

3. He then states that he found an answer, he "touched authentic Body life". This statement will especially appeal to and draw the emotionally motivated, which are often the easiest to manipulate. He claims to have found the real thing, as so many do, which may trap the so-called "seeker".

4. For the first half of the article he is dismantling the concepts that many think of that hold to the traditional way of conducting a church body. He attacks all groups whether Protestant or Catholic, Charismatic, Third-Wave or traditional. He is performing a miniature version of Schein's stages of cult manipulation called Unfreezing, Changing and Refreezing. For a table see: http://www.rickross.com/reference/cults_in_our_midst/cults_in_our_midst2.html it will be the second table on the page or go to my page: http://www.jamesfive19.com/Abuse_of_Pastoral_Authority.html and scroll down to find the table. Make a person unsure of what he thinks of as secure, manipulate him into considering another option and then make sure he keeps that new position. In this case there was probably an offer for his book after the interview which, if bought, would refreeze the person's mode of thought to Frank Victor's view of things. In fact the interview was a miniature version of what is said to be contained in the book.

5. The Changing takes place in all of the above statements but especially with the ones about a need for a new way of seeing God's eternal purpose...after disposing of the old-fasioned, inefficient, undesireable ways, he offers a ray of light that one can grasp for. He tries to impart a new vision that seems brighter and clearer to the reader than that which has been denounced. And who is going to lead this new order? The key phrase is: "We need those who are able....to provide practical tools that will put believers into the living reality of that vision." And that, of course, means him and his materials and program.

The whole article was a sales pitch, offering to impart life and a new vision of God's eternal purpose. That of course costs money (although I ask myself why it should have to, the Holy Spirit didn't cost anything).

I have nothing against people offering products if they can deliver. But in spiritual matters these things can be very dubious. And if someone is purposefully trying to manipulate me in the way I described above, I have a good reason not to trust him from the beginning. And I have not even gotten into Frank Viola's theology yet! This is just the beginning of the analysis process.

While I may not agree with everything that you wrote , I agree with several . I do see the tactics of those promoting his book as being something to bring in money . I actually suggested that he put his writings online and free of charge . The result was people going after me . As far as *I* am concerned , if people *need* something in this way , to demand money shows that they are not interested in the people or they really don't need it . Something is up . It is the same old traditional way of doing things .

 

[New_Wineskin]

The best way to stay right with God is to follow God's word...

I am not into following the written code .

NOT get into other garbage that's written by OTHER people...and to let the Holy Spirit guide you

Amen , to that .

 

[New_Wineskin]

The website you provided the link for outlines the tactical cult methodology very similar to the tactics taught to "ministers" who attend seminary. How very interesting.

BTW

I agree that there are similarities .

 

[discernomatic]

The website you provided the link for outlines the tactical cult methodology very similar to the tactics taught to "ministers" who attend seminary. How very interesting.

I also meant to ask if there is a way to get hold of that kind of material. Could you recommend a book or two where such tactics are described? If you have any notes or sheets saved up from seminary I wouldn't mind paying for a copy and postage.

 

[SteelDisciple]

I am not into following the written code .



Amen , to that .

All you need is the Bible and the Holy Spirit...if you lack either of those...well...you are in big trouble. (not YOU you...you as in generally speaking

 

[FLANDIDLYANDERS]

All you need is the Bible and the Holy Spirit...if you lack either of those...well...you are in big trouble.

Must disagree a bit here.

Holy Spirit is essential, yes. Bible? Didn't Paul say that the wordof God (in this case meaning what he had of the Bible!) is USEFUL for instruction, not ESSENTIAL.

Just saying is all.

 

[SteelDisciple]

Must disagree a bit here.

Holy Spirit is essential, yes. Bible? Didn't Paul say that the wordof God (in this case meaning what he had of the Bible!) is USEFUL for instruction, not ESSENTIAL.

Just saying is all.

That's where people get screwed up. How are you going to learn anything about God without His instructions? It would be like trying to follow the 10 Commandments (just an example) without ever having read them.

 

[FLANDIDLYANDERS]

EXACTLY!!!!
HolySpirit!!!!
lol

 

[SteelDisciple]

EXACTLY!!!!
HolySpirit!!!!
lol

OK, I think I get what you are saying..I hope. =P

The Holy Spirit is essential because it's the only way to read the Bible. Without it you are guessing. Right?

 

[New_Wineskin]

All you need is the Bible and the Holy Spirit...if you lack either of those...well...you are in big trouble. (not YOU you...you as in generally speaking

Ok . As long as it is in general and doesn't include *me* ...

All *I* need is the Lord . I can lack the law ( ie the "bible" ) without being anywhere near trouble .

 

[bubblegirl23]

I have an immune disfunction so I cannot go to church. God still found me, helped me change and continues to love me.

 

[SteelDisciple]

Ok . As long as it is in general and doesn't include *me* ...

All *I* need is the Lord . I can lack the law ( ie the "bible" ) without being anywhere near trouble .

Then how do you get to know God? How do you know His wants for not just your life but the life around you?

Again..how can you follow God's instructions if you haven't read them?

 

[New_Wineskin]

Then how do you get to know God?

I spend time with Him . Abraham hadn't a lick of the Scriptures and the Lord called him His friend . Any instructions that Abraham needed , He gave Himself - the very definition of the "New Covenant" . Abraham was referred to as "our father " in faith .

How do you know His wants for not just your life but the life around you?

The Lord lets me know . I have a relationship with Him . I walk in the Spirit - not the written code .

Again..how can you follow God's instructions if you haven't read them?

Read them ? He wasn't written me any instructions . He tells me His instructions .

 

[SteelDisciple]

I spend time with Him . Abraham hadn't a lick of the Scriptures and the Lord called him His friend . Any instructions that Abraham needed , He gave Himself - the very definition of the "New Covenant" . Abraham was referred to as "our father " in faith .



The Lord lets me know . I have a relationship with Him . I walk in the Spirit - not the written code .



Read them ? He wasn't written me any instructions . He tells me His instructions .

God provided the Bible as a way to grow in Him and to become more like His son Jesus...in order to walk His path. We are to be Christ-Like and in order to do that we need to read from scripture and learn and grow. Yes..talking to God is vital. But God provided THE WORD as a means of learning and growth in Christ His son and in God overall.

Jesus didn't give parables just for the heck of it. He did it to teach us...there are many important things God needs us to learn from His Word.