What is wrong with Calvinism ?

[Clare73]

We don't share the same view of what free will is. To be able to decide what you want doesn't necessarily make it free will. If it is predetermined it is not free. Whether it is casual or not makes no difference.

It's the only free will presented in Scripture.
There is no other option.

 

[zoidar]

It's the only free will presented in Scripture.
There is no other option.

I kindly disagree. Are we reading the same Bible?

 

[Clare73]

I kindly disagree. Are we reading the same Bible?

Are you reading the testimony regarding the unregenerate man in 1 Corinthians 2:14; Romans 8:7-8 or John 3:3?

 

[zoidar]

Are you reading the testimony regarding the unregenerate man in 1 Corinthians 2:14; Romans 8:7-8 or John 3:3?

I don't see what that has to do with free will.

"Libertarianism holds onto a concept of free will that requires the agent to be able to take more than one possible course of action under a given set of circumstances."

Libertarianism (metaphysics) - Wikipedia.

 

[Mark Quayle]

We don't share the same view of what free will is. To be able to decide what you want doesn't necessarily make it free will. If it is predetermined it is not free. Whether it is casual or not makes no difference.

If it is not predetermined it is chance.

 

[zoidar]

If it is not predetermined it is chance.

You state this as fact. But honestly, and I think you should agree, this is a view you hold, not a fact.

Do you know how God created man? If not how can you be so sure? Where were you when God created the world?

 

[Mark Quayle]

You state this as fact. But honestly, and I think you should agree, this is a view you hold, not a fact.

Do you know how God created man? If not how can you be so sure? Where were you when God created the world?

It's just simple logic. If God (Omnipotent first cause with intent) did not cause a thing, the only alternative is chance, and God is rendered not-omnipotent.

 

[zoidar]

It's just simple logic. If God (Omnipotent first cause with intent) did not cause a thing, the only alternative is chance, and God is rendered not-omnipotent.

Your logic is bigger than God?

Also I don't think you are honest with what your theory brings. If you are right no one is responsible for what they do. Sure God can injustly hold us responsible (really cannot, since it goes against God's character, but a god can), but we are not responsible if you are right.

That is simple logic.

Btw, what you present is a false dilemma.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Your logic is bigger than God?

Also I don't think you are honest with what your theory brings. If you are right no one is responsible for what they do. Sure God can unjustly hold us responsible (really cannot, since it goes against God's character, but a God can), but we are not responsible if you are right.

That is simple logic.

Btw, what you present is a false dilemma.

Remember that so far you have been unable to show how it is possible for anything (but God, first cause) to happen apart from causation. You have not shown how the self-contradictory notion of 'chance' is not the only alternative to first cause, if first cause is said to not cause all things. HOW is God not the cause of all things?

It is your logic that purports to be bigger than God. I can understand how you have a problem with what @Clare73 has been saying, that God imputes Adam's guilt upon those who did not do Adam's sin, but does not God have the right and can we say he is not just to consider guilty or even to wipe out whole nations, or even whole worlds of individual creatures for the corruption introduced by one member of that collective? So how is that any different from him holding individuals responsible for their own decisions —does he not cause both? HOW is God not the cause of all things?

If God causes all things, he can rightly hold us responsible for the choices we make. Your view elevates man to God's level. We are not only below him in status, and therefore it is legally beyond us to judge him. But we are also UNABLE to judge him —we are incompetent. We wouldn't know what we are talking about. We would be spouting gibberish. HOW is God not the cause of all things?

 

[zoidar]

Remember that so far you have been unable to show how it is possible for anything (but God, first cause) to happen apart from causation. You have not shown how the self-contradictory notion of 'chance' is not the only alternative to first cause, if first cause is said to not cause all things. HOW is God not the cause of all things?

It is your logic that purports to be bigger than God. I can understand how you have a problem with what @Clare73 has been saying, that God imputes Adam's guilt upon those who did not do Adam's sin, but does not God have the right and can we say he is not just to consider guilty or even to wipe out whole nations, or even whole worlds of individual creatures for the corruption introduced by one member of that collective? So how is that any different from him holding individuals responsible for their own decisions —does he not cause both? HOW is God not the cause of all things?

If God causes all things, he can rightly hold us responsible for the choices we make. Your view elevates man to God's level. We are not only below him in status, and therefore it is legally beyond us to judge him. But we are also UNABLE to judge him —we are incompetent. We wouldn't know what we are talking about. We would be spouting gibberish. HOW is God not the cause of all things?

What you seem to be saying is that God has another messure of moral than His creation/our standard. If that is true we need to question the whole notion of moral. How do we know then what is just and not? If God can be unjust by our moral standard and still be just, then why can't we? After all God is the true measure of moral. If God can be unjust by our moral measure, I have no idea what justice is or what is unjust.

I hope you won't say something like man is morally corrupt, then you are completely missing the point.

 

[Clare73]

I don't see what that has to do with free will.

"Libertarianism holds onto a concept of free will that requires the agent to be able to take more than one possible course of action under a given set of circumstances."

Libertarianism (metaphysics) - Wikipedia.

Unregenerate man is not free to see/choose/receive the things of God (1 Corinthians 2:14), because his sinful mind is hostile to God (Romans 8:7-8) he cannot see (John 3:3).

How did you miss that?

 

[zoidar]

Unregenerate man is not free to see/choose/receive the things of God (1 Corinthians 2:14), because his sinful mind is hostile to God (Romans 8:7-8) he cannot see (John 3:3).

How did you miss that?

Even if that is true, it has nothing to do with libertarian free will. At least not as I have understood it.

 

[John Mullally]

Unregenerate man is not free to see/choose/receive the things of God (1 Corinthians 2:14), because his sinful mind is hostile to God (Romans 8:7-8) he cannot see (John 3:3).

How did you miss that?

If the added step of regenerating the world was required before the Holy Spirit can convict the world of sin, righteousness, and judgement, it would be explicitly stated - its not.

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. 8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 of sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; 11 of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.
​

Also, the use of the word world in scripture always has a negative or neutral connotation - it is never used to specify the elect. Therefore, the Holy Spirit is convicting many who will not respond in repentance - refer to John 3:18.

1 John 2:15 Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16 For all that is in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—is not of the Father but is of the world. 17 And the world is passing away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides forever.
​

The crowd in Acts 2:36-41 who repented are an example of those who were convicted by the Holy Spirit of sin, righteousness, and judgement. There is nothing in scripture to say they were regenerated before they made their decision to repent and be baptized. Peter promised remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit to those who repented and were baptized.

 

[Clare73]

Even if that is true, it has nothing to do with libertarian free will. At least not as I have understood it.

Then we are agreed. . .

 

[Clare73]

If the added step of regenerating the world was required before the Holy Spirit can convict the world of sin, righteousness, and judgement, it would be explicitly stated - its not.

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. 8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 of sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; 11 of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.​

Regeneration is about rebirth, faith and repentance.

Convincing the world of sin, of God's righteousness and judgment do not require rebirth.
All the condemned will be convinced of such without a rebirth, but it will not be a transforming conviction, only a conviction of their judgment.

 

[John Mullally]

Regeneration is about rebirth, faith and repentance.

Rebirth always follows faith and repentance.

Convincing the world of sin, of God's righteousness and judgment do not require rebirth.
All the condemned will be convinced of such without a rebirth, but it will not be a transforming conviction, only a conviction of their judgment.

John 16:8 does not include the term "God's righteousness" - it only says "righteousness". And Peter, led by the Holy Spirit, promises righteousness (remission of sins) in Acts 2:38-39 to those who repent and are baptized.

Some who are convicted by the Holy Spirit do not repent and remain lost per John 3:18.

The work of the Holy Spirit in convicting the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment is necessary for success in preaching of the Gospel - which is the power of God unto salvation to those who believe (Romans 1:16).

 

[QvQ]

Rebirth always follows faith and repentance.

That is confusing. Christ died for our sins or only Adam's sins? What about the doctrine of Justification?
Repentance necessary to rebirth seems to be "works" performed to gain salvation. Faith and redemption (justification) are by the Grace of God alone. Why confess to something that is "washed away?"
Perhaps Justification means something else in your hierarchy.

 

[John Mullally]

That is confusing. Christ died for our sins or only Adam's sins? What about the doctrine of Justification?
Repentance necessary to rebirth seems to be "works" performed to gain salvation. Faith and redemption (justification) are by the Grace of God alone. Why confess to something that is "washed away?"
Perhaps Justification means something else in your hierarchy.

Was Peter on the day of Pentecost promoting a works based salvation when he proclaimed Acts 2:38-39? Unmistakably, the Holy Spirit speaking through Peter promises the remission of sins and gift of the Holy Spirit (this is arguably salvation) to those who repent and are baptized (in verse 38). Verse 39 says that that offer extends to today. In addition, the Lord's call goes out to all because God commands all men everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30).

Acts 2:36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.” 37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?” 38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.” 40 And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, “Be saved from this perverse generation.” 41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them​

Acts 17:30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent,
​

God is gracious in dispensing faith to those who listen to the word of God (which frequently occurs when hearing the gospel preached). This promise can be viewed as a gift from God.

Romans 10:17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.​

 

[QvQ]

Acts 17:30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent,

It seems to me to "repent of ignorance" which is not a sin. It is a condition. Repent of unbelief and have faith.
To admit to either not believing or never hearing about Christ and then believing, that seems to be the definition of "repentance" in these verses.
I suppose it is a simple way of saying "give up your unbelief and/or hear the Gospel of Christ and have faith.

The condition that is repented is not believing or not having faith. No other sin or condition is listed or mentioned in context.

 

[John Mullally]

It seems to me to "repent of ignorance" which is not a sin. It is a condition. Repent of unbelief and have faith.

In Acts 17:30 Paul is speaking to the Greek Athenians and refers to their past as "these times of ignorance God overlooked". With the preaching of the Gospel in the New Covenant, God "now commands all men everywhere to repent". There is nothing in Acts 17:30 about "repent of ignorance". Acts 17:31 states why all men are to repent: God will judge the world through Jesus.

Acts 17:29 Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man’s devising. 30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, 31 because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.”​