What is wrong with Calvinism ?

[Clare73]

Repentance, a man can confess, denounce, regret, feel remorse for his sins, however, unless a man changes, he is just blowing smoke.
Repentance requires a change.
Repentance is analogous to Newton, who became aware of gravity. It was an insight, not an act of will Newton was always subject to the laws of gravity but that insight caused him to see "gravity" in an entirely new light. Newton was compelled to investigate this "force" whereby Newton gained knowledge, not only the existence of gravity, but the laws of gravity. The apple hitting Newton on the head, Newton "saw the light."
God and man is a relationship. That relationship exists whether man is aware of it or not.
A man who becomes aware of God, as Newton became aware of gravity, is compelled to discover the laws of that Being.
The Bible is the Book whereby God speaks to man.
Repenting ignorance of gravity, through Newton's insight and recording the laws of gravity, man can fly.
Repenting of ignorance of God and becoming aware of, through the Bible, the laws of God, man can gain a relationship with God and eternal life. A man can understand his past errors (repent).

Understanding God, being aware or not aware of God is not an act of man's will.
Man is a conscious being. He is either aware or not aware. What he is aware of or can do about what he is aware of is very limited. Man has imagination, what worlds he would create. He mostly imagines himself as having free will when the very least attempt to exercise his free will would speedily convince him otherwise.
Free will is a fantasy without corresponding reality.

However, there is a "free will" as presented in Scripture.

It is the power to choose voluntarily, without external force or constraint, what man prefers, likes.

 

[zoidar]

Deleted

 

[John Mullally]

So give me your words, that don't mean the same thing.

Christ’s work on the cross has been done - we receive its benefit by repentance (Mark 16:16 and Acts 2:38-39). Believe the Gospel.

What are you saying, there? Did you misspeak?

Add a period before the word “If” as that starts a new sentence.

Whatever, a dead man can't reach for a life preserver.

The gospel is the power of God to salvation to those who believe. Jesus did not command his disciples to preach in grave yards to the actual dead. The Holy Spirit convicts the world regarding sin, judgment,and righteousness (John 16:8) - He does not regenerate men so that they can believe.

Yet you do promote the notion that what we do adds to what God does, to cause and effect. I claim God does the effect, what we do is a result, and is IN what he does. We have no [truly] spontaneous ability, separate from God's causation.

Believe the gospel.
Cause: Respond to the preaching of the gospel in repentance and baptism.
Effect: Remission of sins and receipt of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38-39).

God has already set you on the course to make that decision. God chose you and made you for that course. It will happen, or it won't happen. When we choose (and yes, again, we DO choose) we can only choose him if God changes our spiritual death to life, or we are unable (dead) to choose Christ.

Jesus is the good shephard who leads the sheep - He is not the good cowboy who drives the herd. God desires all to be saved (1 Timothy 2:4). God shows no partiality (Acts 10:34).

 

[Clare73]

Why do you think we feel guilt for doing something wrong?

Conscience. . .Romans 2:14-15.

 

[John Mullally]

Repentance, a man can confess, denounce, regret, feel remorse for his sins, however, unless a man changes, he is just blowing smoke.
Repentance requires a change.
Repentance is analogous to Newton, who became aware of gravity. It was an insight, not an act of will Newton was always subject to the laws of gravity but that insight caused him to see "gravity" in an entirely new light. Newton was compelled to investigate this "force" whereby Newton gained knowledge, not only the existence of gravity, but the laws of gravity. The apple hitting Newton on the head, Newton "saw the light."
God and man is a relationship. That relationship exists whether man is aware of it or not.
A man who becomes aware of God, as Newton became aware of gravity, is compelled to discover the laws of that Being.
The Bible is the Book whereby God speaks to man.
Repenting ignorance of gravity, through Newton's insight and recording the laws of gravity, man can fly.
Repenting of ignorance of God and becoming aware of, through the Bible, the laws of God, man can gain a relationship with God and eternal life. A man can understand his past errors (repent).
Understanding God, being aware or not aware of God is not an act of man's will.
Man is a conscious being. He is either aware or not aware. What he is aware of or can do about what he is aware of is very limited. Man has imagination, what worlds he would create. He mostly imagines himself as having free will when the very least attempt to exercise his free will would speedily convince him otherwise.
Free will is a fantasy without corresponding reality.

And yet in Acts 2, Peter accepted all 3000 into the church who heard the message and chose to be baptized. He treated them as new believers. New believers need to be trained and lovingly discipled - that is where the Church is lacking.

 

[zoidar]

Deleted

 

[QvQ]

It is the power to choose voluntarily, without external force or constraint, what man prefers, likes

God creates opportunity. I have a big old pickup truck. I like my truck, I chose it but before Henry Ford, I would not have a truck, no matter what I liked or chose. Limited Free Will.
After a person "sees the Light," that person will be irresistibly drawn to that Light. As I said before, while a man is sitting around, scheming on winning the lottery or making a killing on the stock market so he can afford a better class of friends, out of the corner of his eye, he sees a flash of Light.
if a man stops following after vain and sinful pursuits, the Light will lead him from east of eden to the 23rd psalm. Man's life will change if he follows the Light. It is not "free will" or a choice of likes, it is following where the Light is. The Light is not in the local saloon. The light is in the peace of a man's home with Bible in hand. Those may be free will choices but that is an illusion. A man following the Light will be led beside still waters and green pastures rather than the honkey tonk thick smoke and loud music.
Man does not so much abandon sin as sin abandons the man. The opportunity for sin gradually fades away.
I think the concept of justification is somewhere in repentance but I don't understand concepts in the same way as "born and raised" in the faith understand it.
I would say a man was Justified rather than repentant when sin drops away as the man is led to a cleaner life by the Light.

 

[Clare73]

The answer I was looking for is because we could have done it differently. If everything is predetermined, then could we?

If I didn't exist, could I?

Why are you asking me?

 

[zoidar]

Deleted

 

[Clare73]

God creates opportunity. I have a big old pickup truck. I like my truck, I chose it but before Henry Ford, I would not have a truck, no matter what I liked or chose. Limited Free Will.
After a person "sees the Light," that person will be irresistibly drawn to that Light. As I said before, while a man is sitting around, scheming on winning the lottery or making a killing on the stock market so he can afford a better class of friends, out of the corner of his eye, he sees a flash of Light.
if a man stops following after vain and sinful pursuits, the Light will lead him from east of eden to the 23rd psalm. Man's life will change if he follows the Light. It is not "free will" or a choice of likes, it is following where the Light is. The Light is not in the local saloon. The light is in the peace of a man's home with Bible in hand. Those may be free will choices but that is an illusion. A man following the Light will be led beside still waters and green pastures rather than the honkey tonk thick smoke and loud music.
Man does not so much abandon sin as sin abandons the man. The opportunity for sin gradually fades away.

I think the concept of justification is somewhere in repentance but I don't understand concepts in the same way as "born and raised" in the faith understand it.

It might be a good idea to try to understand them as they are presented in the NT, in light of all Scripture, in terms of Jesus' understanding of the OT.

I would say a man was Justified rather than repentant when sin drops away as
the man is led to a cleaner life by the Light.

No one can even see the light apart from the rebirth (John 3:3).

 

[Clare73]

I just proved to you libertarian free will exists. That's why. Being able to experience guilt shows it.

What is "libertarian free will?"

Where do I find that phrase in Scripture?

 

[zoidar]

Deleted

 

[Clare73]

The phrase is obviously not in there, but it's especially seen in the Gospels.

So. . .what is it?

 

[zoidar]

So. . .what is it?

That our future choices are not predetermined, but determined by our free will.

"Libertarians believe that free will is incompatible with causal determinism, and agents have free will. They therefore deny that causal determinism is true."

Libertarianism about Free Will - Bibliography - PhilPapers

Gee! I shouldn't have brought it up.... Just meaningless fuss..

 

[Clare73]

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[Clare73]

That our future choices are not predetermined, but determined by our free will.

I think you misunderstand.

Human free will is not denied, but operates in "causal determinism."

You don't understand "causal determinism" (Philippians 2:13).

"Libertarians believe that free will is incompatible with causal determinism, and
agents have free will. They therefore deny that causal determinism is true."

 

[zoidar]

.

 

[zoidar]

I think you misunderstand.

Human free will is not denied, but operates in "causal determinism."

You don't understand "causal determinism" (Philippians 2:13).

I do understand, just don't agree.

And Phil 2:13 has nothing to do with "causal determinism".

 

[Clare73]

I do understand, just don't agree.

But if you think it abrogates free will, you do not understand it.

 

[zoidar]

But if you think it abrogates free will, you do not understand it.

We don't share the same view of what free will is. To be able to decide what you want doesn't necessarily make it free will. If it is predetermined it is not free. Whether it is casual or not makes no difference.