What is wrong with Calvinism ?

[zoidar]

Ditto it has a variety of meanings just like many other words in scripture.

I changed the verses in my last post to more obvious ones.

 

[QvQ]

I think of darkness as night, and light as day.

I think of light as the awareness of God in a spiritual sense. When a person is not aware of God or denies God, then that is spiritual darkness.

But, technically, light is energy and darkness is absence of energy. Or day and night as the energy of the sun illuminates the day and when the sun disappears, darkness falls. (simply stated)

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

I think of light as the awareness of God in a spiritual sense. When a person is not aware of God or denies God, then that is spiritual darkness.

But, technically, light is energy and darkness is absence of energy. Or day and night as the energy of the sun illuminates the day and when the sun disappears, darkness falls. (simply stated)

Except there was no sin ( evil) in Genesis 1:1-2 where darkness is used

 

[QvQ]

As the story goes God created Lucifer good, but he rebelled because of pride and fell, became evil - the accuser

One of my favorite books is Paradise Lost. I had parts of it memorized before I even picked up a Bible. Most peoples views on Lucifer are Milton's rather than Biblical. It has been a very popular book for centuries.
Farewell Happy Fields
Where Joy for ever dwells: Hail horrors, hail
Infernal world, and thou profoundest Hell
Receive thy new Possessor: One who brings
A mind not to be changed by Place or Time.
The mind is its own place, and in it self
Can make a Heav'n of Hell, a Hell of Heav'n.
What matter where, if I be still the same,
And what I should be, all but less then he
Whom Thunder hath made greater? Here at least
We shall be free; the Almighty hath not built
Here for his envy, will not drive us hence:
Here we may reign secure, and in my choice
To reign is worth ambition though in Hell:
Better to reign in Hell, then serve in Heav'n.

 

[atpollard]

As for whether it means God loves all or not, the discussions over what is entailed by "world" seem to me to be more driven by attempts to preserve a theology than to naturally hold much weight. The arguments that restrict it always seem to work backwards from the interpretation rather than being drawn from within the text.

Did Jesus die so that God could bring all men without exception, whom He loved without limit, eternal life? (Universal Salvation) … If not, then just what sort of Godly “love” does John 3:16 illustrate?

I think you are building a house of straw on a foundation of sand … to fit YOUR pre-chosen theology.

 

[atpollard]

Restricting to a particular lexical form doesn't really seem to me to be a legitimate restriction if the goal is to establish what the gospels say about God's love, especially since you appear to have filtered it conceptually not purely lexically given the restriction of God's love.

… then feel free to restrict it some other way and post YOUR findings. I chose the word “love” (suggested by another post) and the NASB95 translation (my personal preference) and the 4 Gospels (to limit the length of the post).

 

[atpollard]

Thanks!

I don't think there has to be bad for there to be good. I mean in heaven there will only be good. Also I don't believe God created evil. If the story of Lucifer is correct, he was the creator of evil.

Is it Isa 45:7 you think says God created evil?

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.
- KJV

I think the KJV's translation is an unfortunate one. I rather go with NASB.

The One forming light and creating darkness,
Causing well-being and creating calamity;
I am the Lord who does all these.
— Isaiah 45:7

I agree.

Isaiah 45:7 is best understood within its context:

[Isaiah 45:5-7 NASB95]
5 "I am the LORD, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God. I will gird you, though you have not known Me; 6 That men may know from the rising to the setting of the sun That there is no one besides Me. I am the LORD, and there is no other, 7 The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these.

Can anyone else see a theme?

Verse 7 presents pairs of opposites that are intended to convey the message that God is God all alone and controls EVERYTHING from one extreme to the other … the ALPHA and OMEGA in NT terminology.

 

[QvQ]

Except there was no sin ( evil) in Genesis 1:1-2 where darkness is used

There are many verses containing the words "light" "dark." It depends on context. Genesis 1: 1-2 indicates light in one way (physical) but Jesus saying "just so, your light must shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your heavenly Father" (spiritual)

 

[misput]

It is sometimes but not all the time . Context determines its meaning .

darkness below has nothing to do with your definition above

Genesis 1:1-2
the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty,darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

Context =If you look at v 3, 4 and following you may notice it is not referring to day and night because the sun is not created until later.

 

[zoidar]

I think of light as the awareness of God in a spiritual sense. When a person is not aware of God or denies God, then that is spiritual darkness.

But, technically, light is energy and darkness is absence of energy. Or day and night as the energy of the sun illuminates the day and when the sun disappears, darkness falls. (simply stated)

Yeah, I was speaking about the meaning in Isaiah 45:7.

 

[zoidar]

I agree.

Isaiah 45:7 is best understood within its context:

[Isaiah 45:5-7 NASB95]
5 "I am the LORD, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God. I will gird you, though you have not known Me; 6 That men may know from the rising to the setting of the sun That there is no one besides Me. I am the LORD, and there is no other, 7 The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these.

Can anyone else see a theme?

Verse 7 presents pairs of opposites that are intended to convey the message that God is God all alone and controls EVERYTHING from one extreme to the other … the ALPHA and OMEGA in NT terminology.

I agree as far as God is in control of everything, not that He controls everything.

 

[QvQ]

Context =If you look at v 3, 4 and following you may notice it is not referring to day and night because the sun is not created until later.

As has been noted, energy is light. According to physics, that is correct because the energy exploded into space and then was formed by gravitational forces into stars and suns.
In that context light is pure energy. Sun is gathering of that energy by gravity into a ball of sun.

It was thought for centuries those verses were incorrect but it turns out, that is exactly what modern physics predicts. A huge burst of energy (light) then the formation into stars.

If I am reading it correctly, there was light before sun in the Bible.

 

[atpollard]

I agree as far as God is in control of everything, not that He controls everything.

Is that a distinction without a difference?

OMNIPOTENT, OMNISCIENT, OMNIPRESENT, “Not my fault” … choose three.

 

[PuerAzaelis]

Is that a distinction without a difference?

OMNIPOTENT, OMNISCIENT, OMNIPRESENT, “Not my fault” … choose three.

As Augustine says (Enchiridion xi): Since God is the highest good, He would not allow any evil to exist in His works, unless His omnipotence and goodness were such as to bring good even out of evil. This is part of the infinite goodness of God, that He should allow evil to exist, and out of it produce good.

ST.I.Q2.A3.Rep1.

 

[atpollard]

As Augustine says (Enchiridion xi): Since God is the highest good, He would not allow any evil to exist in His works, unless His omnipotence and goodness were such as to bring good even out of evil. This is part of the infinite goodness of God, that He should allow evil to exist, and out of it produce good.

ST.I.Q2.A3.Rep1.

OK, so maybe Augustine is more eloquent than I am.

However, I think that God does more than merely “allowing” sin to exist (yes, I changed “evil” to “sin” because we can agree that an act is sin and argue whether the result is ultimately good or evil). God placed Adam, Eve, the Tree and the Serpent in the same location … that was more than “allow”, God set the stage for the fall … so the ULTIMATE purpose must have been “worth it” in God’s opinion (which is good enough for me).

 

[zoidar]

Is that a distinction without a difference?

OMNIPOTENT, OMNISCIENT, OMNIPRESENT, “Not my fault” … choose three.

I believe God allows us to act according to our free will, even He could control us if he wanted. So God has the power to control everything, but doesn't.

 

[PuerAzaelis]

OK, so maybe Augustine is more eloquent than I am.

However, I think that God does more than merely “allowing” sin to exist (yes, I changed “evil” to “sin” because we can agree that an act is sin and argue whether the result is ultimately good or evil). God placed Adam, Eve, the Tree and the Serpent in the same location … that was more than “allow”, God set the stage for the fall … so the ULTIMATE purpose must have been “worth it” in God’s opinion (which is good enough for me).

Indeed.

It is said (Wis 14:3): But Thou, Father, governest all things by providence.

ST.I.Q22.A1.SC

 

[atpollard]

I believe God allows us to act according to our free will, even He could control us if he wanted. So God has the power to control everything, but doesn't.

In my experience, God transforms our “heart” from a “fallen will” that instinctively flees from God and hides (to avoid having our sin exposed) just like Adam/Eve and John 3:20 to a “Christ-like will” that instinctively desires the things of God and to draw near to Him.

 

[PuerAzaelis]

OK, so maybe Augustine is more eloquent than I am.

However, I think that God does more than merely “allowing” sin to exist (yes, I changed “evil” to “sin” because we can agree that an act is sin and argue whether the result is ultimately good or evil). God placed Adam, Eve, the Tree and the Serpent in the same location … that was more than “allow”, God set the stage for the fall … so the ULTIMATE purpose must have been “worth it” in God’s opinion (which is good enough for me).

Indeed.

We must say, however, that all things are subject to divine providence, not only in general, but even in their own individual selves. This is made evident thus. For since every agent acts for an end, the ordering of effects towards that end extends as far as the causality of the first agent extends. Whence it happens that in the effects of an agent something takes place which has no reference towards the end, because the effect comes from a cause other than, and outside the intention of the agent. But the causality of God, Who is the first agent, extends to all being, not only as to constituent principles of species, but also as to the individualizing principles; not only of things incorruptible, but also of things corruptible. Hence all things that exist in whatsoever manner are necessarily directed by God towards some end; as the Apostle says: Those things that are of God are well ordered (Rom 13:1). Since, therefore, as the providence of God is nothing less than the type of the order of things towards an end, as we have said, it necessarily follows that all things, inasmuch as they participate in existence, must likewise be subject to divine providence.

ST.I.Q22.A2.C

 

[zoidar]

In my experience, God transforms our “heart” from a “fallen will” that instinctively flees from God and hides (to avoid having our sin exposed) just like Adam/Eve and John 3:20 to a “Christ-like will” that instinctively desires the things of God and to draw near to Him.

I was not really thinking about salvation, but other things in life, especially sin. How one person came to faith seems to differ from another, but it's a work of the Holy Spirit.