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What is wrong with Calvinism ?

Fervent

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Did Jesus die so that God could bring all men without exception, whom He loved without limit, eternal life? (Universal Salvation) … If not, then just what sort of Godly “love” does John 3:16 illustrate?

I think you are building a house of straw on a foundation of sand … to fit YOUR pre-chosen theology.
I don't believe your question is an honest assessment, as I don't believe God loving everyone without exception and giving His son that they may be saved necessarily demands they must be saved. And the issue isn't one of theology, but whether or not anything in the context of John itself gives any reason to suspect restricting the word, as it seems to me attempts to restrict it are built on a commitment to a Calvinistic view of the atonement rather than being built strictly on textual or linguistic considerations.
 
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Mark Quayle

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All that verse means is all men will die,

next
Actually no. I doesn't say anything about who will die. It says death reigned over those from Adam to Moses. What the verse says is applicable to what the context says. It didn't mention that all will die, and leave it at that. The word, "Nevertheless", is logically placed within an argument. I hope this isn't how you do all your exegesis.
 
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Mark Quayle

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"What is the difference in views between Orthodoxy and the western churches?

It seems the author here equates Eastern (or one of the varieties of eastern) Orthodox with Orthodoxy. That would be a mistake. Eastern Orthodox is not the standard by which other wannabe's are to be measured.

Original sin (προπατορική αμαρτία in Greek means ancestral sin) is a term used in western churches that is different from what the Church originally taught as ancestral sin. It is a doctrine that comes from the time of Saint Augustine. He was defending the Church against the teaching of Pelagius. Augustine taught that all humanity sinned with Adam. That is, his sin became our personal sin. The consequence is that guilt replaces death as the ancestral inheritance.
The author says 'the consequence is'. What does he mean by that —that consequentially, what Augustine taught necessarily implies that the ancestral inheritance is guilt and not death? I am not particularly familiar with Augustine, but if he taught what the Reformed believe, he did not teach that the ancestral inheritance is not death, nor that we inherit guilt. Imputation has to do with guilt, or directly with the sin of Adam. Imputation is not inheritance. What we inherit is the sin nature.

It is pointed out that Augustine used a poor translation of Romans 5:12. ἐφ᾿ ᾧ (ef Jw) which means "because of" was translated as "in whom." Sinned in Adam is quite different than sinned because of Adam. The correct interpretation teaches that Adam’s sin carried death to all creation, and that although our sin is evidence to this death, it is not Adam’s specific transgression that we have inherited.

I've seen this before, concerning Augustine, but also it has been thrown in my face when I use a verse or passage that someone else (who disagrees with some theological tenet to which I hold) talks as though it is on that verse alone that I base my conclusions. The supposed 'correct use' of the preposition of Romans 5:12 does not deny the possibility of Augustine's use for the verse, and there are others that use a different preposition that are hardly deniable that they mean "in Adam", or the like. The principle stands.

In the Orthodox teaching we are subject to sinful tendencies, sickness, suffering and death as the result of our descendence from Adam. With Adam’s sin our nature was changed. Our goal now is to overcome these fallen tendencies with the help of the Holy Spirit and the way of Christ so we can gain union with God and live in harmony with him in Paradise.

Whoa! This is a bit scary, and unorthodox sounding. Maybe I'm misunderstanding the author. —Is he saying that our goal now is to overcome sickness, suffering and death? And if not, if he is not calling these our tendencies we are to overcome, do we really overcome in order to live in harmony with him in Paradise? How is it even possible for someone to be in Paradise that does not live in harmony with him? That whole paragraph has a kind of vague feel to it.

But, anyway, he continues here with his narrative that Augustine did not believe we inherit the sin nature. Again, the inheritance is not the same thing as the imputation.

In the Orthodox view, guilt can only result from an act which one has committed. We can’t sin for another person. We believe that we need a savior to overcome death and our separation from God, to be forgiven our own transgressions, but not to be forgiven for Adam’s transgression. For Adam, sin came first then death. We inherit death from Adam and our sin follows.

Is it Orthodoxy (no, I didn't say, 'Eastern Orthodox'), that God only ever deals individually with mankind concerning sin?

Death is a significant burden for us to carry. Our lives are dominated by the fear of death and our struggle to survive. In this struggle we tend to become self-centered. As a result we can be separated from God. Our salvation involves a transformation from this fearful autonomous state. For eternal life we must be in communion with God and one another.

"As a result" of the struggle, or of becoming self-centered? We are BORN separated from God; we are born self-centered.

I can't help but wonder what, precisely, the author means by 'autonomous' and how it applies here.

Does the author believe we achieve some worthy degree of unity with God and with one another, IN ORDER TO receive eternal life?

Augustine in his debate with Pelagius developed the position that only grace is able to save. The Church had always taught that it was both a matter of grace and personal effort or synergia as it was termed. This position of the early Church was abandoned in the west. A concept of legalistic justice was then applied to western theology which led to further differences between east and west and the notion of a wrathful God in the west rather than the loving God of Orthodoxy."

Well, no, the church has not always taught synergy. Several places in Romans, for instance, and Ephesians 2:1-10 teach monergism rather directly. If the New Testament teaches that by grace through faith we are saved, and that not of ourselves (it is the gift of God), where is room for synergism? And again, no, Reformed Theology does not deny man is entirely embroiled in the effort, but that man's efforts do not avail him in regeneration and salvation. Our salvation rests on God's choice, Christ's substitution, and the work of the Sprit of God within the redeemed, and not on man's efforts or even man's choice.
 
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misput

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As has been noted, energy is light. According to physics, that is correct because the energy exploded into space and then was formed by gravitational forces into stars and suns.
In that context light is pure energy. Sun is gathering of that energy by gravity into a ball of sun.

It was thought for centuries those verses were incorrect but it turns out, that is exactly what modern physics predicts. A huge burst of energy (light) then the formation into stars.

If I am reading it correctly, there was light before sun in the Bible.
I never thought of that, you may be right.
 
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misput

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Thoughts from misput's world:
Ro 5:19 For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.

Notice: we are made sinful or righteous, we do not make ourselves either way.

The only choice we have is whether we believe the Lord or not and some claim we don't even have that. So I suppose we are just along for the ride to God only knows where : )
------------------------------------------------------
Ro 5:12-19 God is saying He credits us with sin through Adam which brings physical suffering and death. This seems unfair and evil but like with Joseph and ourselves it works out for Good.
In the same way, He credits us with righteousness which brings Spiritual life through Christ. In other words we are made sinful or righteous the same way (by being credited by God through Adam or Christ). I believe this teaching is meant to relieve us of the guilt and condemnation of sin whether credited or actual, if we believe the Lord.
 
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zoidar

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I'm not an Eastern Orthodox Christian, and I agree that their theology around salvation tend to be a bit unclear, at least from what I have seen. It's not that I agree or even know if I understand exacly what he means in everything, but he made some interesting points.

The author says 'the consequence is'. What does he mean by that —that consequentially, what Augustine taught necessarily implies that the ancestral inheritance is guilt and not death? I am not particularly familiar with Augustine, but if he taught what the Reformed believe, he did not teach that the ancestral inheritance is not death, nor that we inherit guilt. Imputation has to do with guilt, or directly with the sin of Adam. Imputation is not inheritance. What we inherit is the sin nature.

I can't say I know exacly what Augustine taught, but the point he makes is that where the Eastern Orthodox church teaches that Adam's sin lead to death alone, the Western churches teach we are guilty of Adam's sin, an idea he means came from Augustine.

I've seen this before, concerning Augustine, but also it has been thrown in my face when I use a verse or passage that someone else (who disagrees with some theological tenet to which I hold) talks as though it is on that verse alone that I base my conclusions. The supposed 'correct use' of the preposition of Romans 5:12 does not deny the possibility of Augustine's use for the verse, and there are others that use a different preposition that are hardly deniable that they mean "in Adam", or the like. The principle stands.

Could it possibly be translated "in Adam"? Sure, I think so ... we have all kinds of translations. The question is how correct they are. But if original sin wasn't taught by the Church Fathers before Augustine, this gives a good reason why. It also explains why the teaching of "original sin" never was taken up into the Eastern Orthodox church.

Well, no, the church has not always taught synergy. Several places in Romans, for instance, and Ephesians 2:1-10 teach monergism rather directly. If the New Testament teaches that by grace through faith we are saved, and that not of ourselves (it is the gift of God), where is room for synergism? And again, no, Reformed Theology does not deny man is entirely embroiled in the effort, but that man's efforts do not avail him in regeneration and salvation. Our salvation rests on God's choice, Christ's substitution, and the work of the Sprit of God within the redeemed, and not on man's efforts or even man's choice.

I think his understanding of synergism is pulled from the Early Church Fathers. Of course he also means it was taught in Scripture. I don't like the word "synergism", because it sounds like salvation is more about doing than mercy. There is a relationship between faith and doing, but I would not call salvation synergistic. Salvation is always about mercy.
 
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Mark Quayle

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Thoughts from misput's world:
Ro 5:19 For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.

Notice: we are made sinful or righteous, we do not make ourselves either way.

The only choice we have is whether we believe the Lord or not and some claim we don't even have that. So I suppose we are just along for the ride to God only knows where : )
------------------------------------------------------
Ro 5:12-19 God is saying He credits us with sin through Adam which brings physical suffering and death. This seems unfair and evil but like with Joseph and ourselves it works out for Good.
In the same way, He credits us with righteousness which brings Spiritual life through Christ. In other words we are made sinful or righteous the same way (by being credited by God through Adam or Christ). I believe this teaching is meant to relieve us of the guilt and condemnation of sin whether credited or actual, if we believe the Lord.
This does not sound like the POV you've been pushing all along. What gives? You sound positively Reformed here, minus one important detail, on the subject of imputation!

That detail is that imputation of sin and guilt, and inheritance of death, are two different things, whether necessarily coincident or not. But, yes, that imputation is done by God onto humanity, as is the imputation of Christ's righteousness onto the elect.
 
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setst777

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God being sovereign means that He does what He pleases and does not have to answer to anyone.
"Our God is in the heavens; he does all that he pleases." Psalm 115:3).

Yet, the Sovereign God does not do anything against the Glory of His Holy Nature, which is sanctified onto righteousness and love.
 
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setst777

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I don't believe your question is an honest assessment, as I don't believe God loving everyone without exception and giving His son that they may be saved necessarily demands they must be saved. And the issue isn't one of theology, but whether or not anything in the context of John itself gives any reason to suspect restricting the word, as it seems to me attempts to restrict it are built on a commitment to a Calvinistic view of the atonement rather than being built strictly on textual or linguistic considerations.

Your reply gives thoughtful consideration to the context of Scripture to define for us what God means.

Let us review the question by atpollard again, and see if the answer is given in the context of John 3:16 itself.

atpollard said:
Did Jesus die so that God could bring all men without exception, whom He loved without limit, eternal life? (Universal Salvation) … If not, then just what sort of Godly “love” does John 3:16 illustrate?... I think you are building a house of straw on a foundation of sand … to fit YOUR pre-chosen theology.

Does "John 3:16" itself answer the question raised? I believe the answer to the question is found within "John 3:16."

John 3:16 (WEB) 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

The Passage tells me that God's love is universal for all mankind, and so offers eternal life to all people.

However, God gives the free gift of eternal life only to those who believe in Lord Jesus.
  • God's love is universal - the world.
  • God desires all to be saved.
  • God offers the free gift of salvation to all.
However, God's Sovereign choice is to give that free gift of eternal life only to those who believe in His Son. That is God's choice according to John 3:16.
 
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Clare73

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As Augustine says (Enchiridion xi): Since God is the highest good, He would not allow any evil to exist in His works, unless His omnipotence and goodness were such as to bring good even out of evil. This is part of the infinite goodness of God,
that He should allow evil to exist, and out of it produce good.


ST.I.Q2.A3.Rep1.
The same as evil serves God's good purposes.

Who but God. . .?
 
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Jesus is YHWH

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Your reply gives thoughtful consideration to the context of Scripture to define for us what God means.

Let us review the question by atpollard again, and see if the answer is given in the context of John 3:16 itself.

atpollard said:
Did Jesus die so that God could bring all men without exception, whom He loved without limit, eternal life? (Universal Salvation) … If not, then just what sort of Godly “love” does John 3:16 illustrate?... I think you are building a house of straw on a foundation of sand … to fit YOUR pre-chosen theology.

Does "John 3:16" itself answer the question raised? I believe the answer to the question is found within "John 3:16."

John 3:16 (WEB) 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

The Passage tells me that God's love is universal for all mankind, and so offers eternal life to all people.

However, God gives the free gift of eternal life only to those who believe in Lord Jesus.
  • God's love is universal - the world.
  • God desires all to be saved.
  • God offers the free gift of salvation to all.
However, God's Sovereign choice is to give that free gift of eternal life only to those who believe in His Son. That is God's choice according to John 3:16.
And His Atonement is for all the world, the whole world, every man, all mankind etc.... as per 1 John 2:2
 
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Clare73

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Indeed.

It is said (Wis 14:3): But Thou, Father, governest all things by providence.

ST.I.Q22.A1.SC
The Book of Wisdom being in the apocrypha and not in the Protestant Canon.
 
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misput

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This does not sound like the POV you've been pushing all along. What gives? You sound positively Reformed here, minus one important detail, on the subject of imputation!

That detail is that imputation of sin and guilt, and inheritance of death, are two different things, whether necessarily coincident or not. But, yes, that imputation is done by God onto humanity, as is the imputation of Christ's righteousness onto the elect.
This does not sound like the POV you've been pushing all along. What gives? You sound positively Reformed here, minus one important detail, on the subject of imputation!

That detail is that imputation of sin and guilt, and inheritance of death, are two different things, whether necessarily coincident or not. But, yes, that imputation is done by God onto humanity, as is the imputation of Christ's righteousness onto the elect.
Please be patient, I am learning. Are u?
When I looked at verse 19 it became clear, God imputes sin and righteousness and since the wages of sin are death, well you know the rest. When I look at verse 12 with that in mind it says because Adam sinned we all sin which from what verse 19 said I assume is the imputed sin. So where do you make the distinction between imputed and actual sin? Is the inherited death physical or Spiritual or both? How does Ezekiel 18 fit into all this?
 
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Clare73

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In my experience, God transforms our “heart” from a “fallen will” that instinctively flees from God and hides (to avoid having our sin exposed) just like Adam/Eve and John 3:20 to a “Christ-like will” that instinctively desires the things of God and to draw near to Him.
Not only in your experience, but also in the Scriptures (John 6:65; Romans 8:7-8; 1 Corinthians 2:14).
 
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Clare73

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Indeed.

We must say, however, that all things are subject to divine providence, not only in general, but even in their own individual selves. This is made evident thus. For since every agent acts for an end, the ordering of effects towards that end extends as far as the causality of the first agent extends. Whence it happens that in the effects of an agent something takes place which has no reference towards the end, because the effect comes from a cause other than, and outside the intention of the agent. But the causality of God, Who is the first agent, extends to all being, not only as to constituent principles of species, but also as to the individualizing principles; not only of things incorruptible, but also of things corruptible. Hence all things that exist in whatsoever manner are necessarily directed by God towards some end; as the Apostle says: Those things that are of God are well ordered (Rom 13:1). Since, therefore, as the providence of God is nothing less than the type of the order of things towards an end, as we have said, it necessarily follows that all things, inasmuch as they participate in existence, must likewise be subject to divine providence.

ST.I.Q22.A2.C
Sounds like Augustine has been reading Mark Quayle. . .;)

Who knew?
 
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setst777

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And His Atonement is for all the world, the whole world, every man, all mankind etc.... as per 1 John 2:2

Yes true, Lord Jesus did make atonement for the sins of the whole word by his own blood, but only those who repent, and believe in Lord Jesus, demonstrated by walking in the light, appropriate that atonement to themselves.

1 John 1:7-9 (WEB) 7 But if we (we who believe) walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ, his Son, cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we (those who walk in the light: vs. 7) confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us the sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
 
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Clare73

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Here is about "original sin" from a site I found on Orthodox faith. I think it was interesting. I didn't know I shared this view with the Orthodox church on "ancestral sin".
"What is the difference in views between Orthodoxy and the western churches?
Original sin (προπατορική αμαρτία in Greek means ancestral sin) is a term used in western churches that is different from what the Church originally taught as ancestral sin.
It is a doctrine that comes from the time of Saint Augustine. He was defending the Church against the teaching of Pelagius. Augustine taught that all humanity sinned with Adam. That is, his sin became our personal sin. The consequence is that
guilt replaces death as the ancestral inheritance.
We do not inherit sin/guilt (Ezekiel 18:20), it is imputed.
And which imputed sin/guilt condemns to death (Romans 6:23).
It is pointed out that Augustine used a poor translation of Romans 5:12. ἐφ᾿ ᾧ (ef Jw) which means "because of" was translated as "in whom." Sinned in Adam is quite different than sinned because of Adam. The correct interpretation teaches that Adam’s sin carried death to all creation, and that although our sin is evidence to this death, it is not Adam’s specific transgression that we have inherited.
We have inherited his fallen nature, while his sin/guilt is imputed to us by God.
We do not inherit guilt/sin (Deuteronomy 24:16; Ezekiel 18:20).
In the Orthodox teaching we are subject to sinful tendencies, sickness, suffering and death as the result of our descendance from Adam. With Adam’s sin our nature was changed. Our goal now is to overcome these fallen tendencies with the help of the Holy Spirit and the way of Christ so we can gain union with God and live in harmony with him in Paradise.
In the Orthodox view, guilt can only result from an act which one has committed. We can’t sin for another person. We believe that we need a savior to overcome death and our separation from God, to be forgiven our own transgressions, but not to be forgiven for Adam’s transgression. For Adam, sin came first then death. We inherit death from Adam and our sin follows.
Adam's sin/guilt is not inherited (Ezekiel 18:20), it is imputed by God (Romans 5:12-18),
as Christ's obedience/righteousness (the cross) is imputed by God through faith (Romans 4:1-11,
Romans 1:17, Romans 3:21, Romans 3:24-25),
Adam's imputation being the pattern for Christ's imputation
(Romans 5:14).
Death is a significant burden for us to carry. Our lives are dominated by the fear of death and our struggle to survive. In this struggle we tend to become self-centered. As a result we can be separated from God. Our salvation involves a transformation from this fearful autonomous state. For eternal life we must be in communion with God and one another.
Our alienation from God is not about a self-centered struggle to survive.
It is about being born with the sin/guilt and condemnation of Adam imputed to us (Romans 5:18),
born enemies of God (Romans 5:10), under the wrath of God (Romans 5:9, John 3:36), condemned
apart from faith in and trust on the sacrifice (blood, Romans 3:25) of Jesus Christ
for the remission of our sin and right standing with God's justice; i.e. "not guilty," declared righteous (justification) with the gift of the imputed obedience/righteousness (the cross) of Jesus Christ (Romans 5:15-17).
Augustine in his debate with Pelagius developed the position that only grace is able to save. The Church had always taught that it was both a matter of grace and personal effort or synergia as it was termed.
Contrary to the clear teaching of Romans 3:21, Romans 3:28; Ephesians 2:8-9, which Augustine tried to restore.
This position of the early Church was abandoned in the west. A concept of legalistic justice was then applied to western theology which led to further differences between east and west and the notion of a wrathful God in the west rather than the loving God of Orthodoxy."
The "wrathful" God being the ignored teaching of the NT itself (John 3:36; Romans 1:18, Romans 2:5, Romans 5:9, Romans 9:22; Ephesians 2:3, Ephesians 5:6; Colossians 3:6; 1 Thessalonians 1:10, 1 Thessalonians 2:16) in favor of a more "comfortable" notion of God.
 
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zoidar

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And which guilty verdict condemns to death (Romans 6:23).

We have inherited his fallen nature, while his guilt is imputed to us by God.
We do not inherit sin (Deuteronomy 24:16; Ezekiel 18:20).

Adam's guilt is not inherited, it is imputed by God (Romans 5:12-18), as Christ's righteousness is imputed by God through faith (Romans 1:17, Romans 3:21, Romans 3:24-25)--as by faith it was imputed to Abraham (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:2-3), Adam being the pattern for Christ's imputation (Romans 5:14).

Our alienation from God is not about a self-centered struggle to survive.
It is about being born with the guilt and condemnation of Adam imputed to us (Romans 5:18),
born enemies of God (Romans 5:10), under the wrath of God (Romans 5:9, John 3:36), condemned
apart from faith in and trust on the sacrifice (blood, Romans 3:25) of Jesus Christ for the remission of our sin
and right standing with God's justice; i.e. "not guilty," declared righteous (justification) with the gift of the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ (Romans 5:15-17).

The "wrathful" God being the ignored teaching of the NT itself (John 3:36; Romans 1:18, Romans 2:5, Romans 5:9, Romans 9:22; Ephesians 2:3, Ephesians 5:6; Colossians 3:6; 1 Thessalonians 1:10, 1 Thessalonians 2:16) in favor of a more "comfortable" notion of God.

I responded to Mark about basically the same stuff. Here you can read my post:

#3746

But I will have to ask if the word "imputed" (concerning righteousness) is used in any of your quoted verses. Not that I'm saying you are wrong (or right) about that. I think it's just worth an observation.
 
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Clare73

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Please be patient, I am learning. Are u?
When I looked at verse 19 it became clear, God imputes sin and righteousness and since the wages of sin are death, well you know the rest. When I look at verse 12 with that in mind it says because Adam sinned we all sin which from what verse 19 said I assume is the imputed sin. So where do you make the distinction between imputed and actual sin? Is the inherited death physical or Spiritual or both? How does Ezekiel 18 fit into all this?
Sin/guilt is not inherited (Ezekiel 18:20).
Adam's sin/guilt is imputed by God to all those born of Adam, just as Christ's obedience/righteousness (the cross) is imputed by God to all those born of Christ (Romans 5:18-19).

Sin/guilt are both imputed from Adam and incurred by the sinner.
 
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