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What is wrong with Calvinism ?

Mark Quayle

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God made the law plain to Cain that Cain would be acceptable if Cain followed the law. Cain broke the law when he murdered Adam. God pronounced Cain unacceptable after that act.

A man could keep the law and be accepted. A man's works did not save his soul or forgive his sins. It is the same today. A person who obeys the civil law can be accepted, be protected under that law and go about his lawful business.
However a person who breaks the law becomes outlaw. An outlaw cannot go home or to work. God cursed Cain as outlaw. God made one concession, no one could kill Cain but everyman's hand was against him. Cain lost the protection of the law.
Now the question is can Cain be forgiven or redeemed? Of course God could do so. But if the argument is that God would relent if Cain subsequently obeyed God and didn't cause any more trouble, then there is a suspicion, in my mind, that Cain could by his works gain salvation and forgiveness.
There was a civil society at that time under the law of God and Cain was exceedingly uncivil but I don't see that God, after Cain murdered Abel, offered to or did accept Cain, forgive his sins or redeem his soul based on Cain's subsequent obedience to the law and good works.

You are right: Of course God could redeem and forgive anyone he chooses. That was my point. You earlier sounded like he couldn't.

You say, "I don't see that God, after Cain murdered Abel, offered to or did accept Cain, forgive his sins or redeem his soul based on Cain's subsequent obedience to the law and good works." But, does God forgive sins or redeem a soul based on anyone's subsequent obedience to the law and good works?

We may suppose, as we do with many others, that Cain died unredeemed. But we really don't know.
 
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Mark Quayle

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Maybe it's silly, but seeing that we are not brothers and sisters before regeneration, may lead to other more important conclusions. But I will drop it.
I get your point, and I would bet so does @Clare73 , and no, it isn't a bad point in and of itself.
 
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QvQ

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We may suppose, as we do with many others, that Cain died unredeemed. But we really don't know.
It is amazing how much information is packed into a few words in the Bible.
I would Guess that Cain died unredeemed. He founded a city far away.

In Oklahoma, there are probably many cities that were founded as outlaw camps, little more than a trading post with a few hovels to shelter the rough crews, out of the reach of the law. An outlaw who took refuge there could find a wife, raise a family and eventually those camps would become cities sheltering the descendants of the original outlaws.
It is a matter of historical record that most of the outlaws in the old west who operated out of the "territories," made a living through raiding, robbing and various criminal pursuits in the neighboring States. So it is interesting to speculate how Cain made a living.
Cain never went home. Neither did those Oklahoma outlaws. There is nothing new under the sun so I would speculate he died in his outlaw state.
 
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Der Alte

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It is amazing how much information is packed into a few words in the Bible.
I would Guess that Cain died unredeemed. He founded a city far away.
In Oklahoma, there are probably many cities that were founded as outlaw camps, little more than a trading post with a few hovels to shelter the rough crews, out of the reach of the law. An outlaw who took refuge there could find a wife, raise a family and eventually those camps would become cities sheltering the descendants of the original outlaws.
It is a matter of historical record that most of the outlaws in the old west who operated out of the "territories," made a living through raiding, looting and various criminal pursuits in the neighboring States. So it is interesting to speculate how Cain made a living.
Cain never went home. Neither did those Oklahoma outlaws. There is nothing new under the sun so I would speculate he died in his outlaw state.
In south east Oklahoma near Wilburton is a tourist attraction called Robbers Cave. Supposedly some of the old west outlaws hung out there.
 
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QvQ

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In south east Oklahoma near Wilburton is a tourist attraction called Robbers Cave. Supposedly some of the old west outlaws hung out there.
Thank You
However, the question I meant to ask; Is there any record in the Old Testament of God giving redemption and forgiveness of sins to anyone before Christ.
God did show mercy in the Old Testament, staying His hand but I don't see any evidence of salvation due to works. An orderly civil society and a relationship with God were the rewards for good behavior, not salvation or redemption and eternal life.
I am certain Cain could not have "earned" acceptance or redemption through subsequent good behavior

(Granted, Cain could have been accepted and redeemed as an unmerited act of God's infinite mercy.)
 
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Der Alte

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Thank You
However, the question I meant to ask; Is there any record in the Old Testament of God giving redemption and forgiveness of sins to anyone before Christ.
God did show mercy in the Old Testament, staying His hand but I don't see any evidence of salvation due to works. An orderly civil society was the reward for good behavior, not any forgiveness of sin or redemption beyond the temporal world
I agree but there are folks around here that quote some NT verses out-of-context which according to them show all men being saved by the burning of their ordinary, mundane works.
1 Corinthians 3:14
(14) If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.​
They also think this means all mankind will be saved.
Mark 9:49
(49) For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.​
 
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Mark Quayle

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Thank You
However, the question I meant to ask; Is there any record in the Old Testament of God giving redemption and forgiveness of sins to anyone before Christ.
God did show mercy in the Old Testament, staying His hand but I don't see any evidence of salvation due to works. An orderly civil society and a relationship with God were the rewards for good behavior, not salvation or redemption and eternal life.
I am certain Cain could not have "earned" acceptance or redemption through subsequent good behavior

(Granted, Cain could have been accepted and redeemed as an unmerited act of God's infinite mercy.)
There has always ever been only one way to Heaven.
 
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zoidar

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Because all died, and all physical death is the result of sin.

Keeping in mind that Paul is dealing with a "conundrum;" i.e., no one sinned, yet all died because of sin.

Here is about "original sin" from a site I found on Orthodox faith. I think it was interesting. I didn't know I shared this view with the Orthodox church on "ancestral sin".

"What is the difference in views between Orthodoxy and the western churches?

Original sin (προπατορική αμαρτία in Greek means ancestral sin) is a term used in western churches that is different from what the Church originally taught as ancestral sin. It is a doctrine that comes from the time of Saint Augustine. He was defending the Church against the teaching of Pelagius. Augustine taught that all humanity sinned with Adam. That is, his sin became our personal sin. The consequence is that guilt replaces death as the ancestral inheritance.

It is pointed out that Augustine used a poor translation of Romans 5:12. ἐφ᾿ ᾧ (ef Jw) which means "because of" was translated as "in whom." Sinned in Adam is quite different than sinned because of Adam. The correct interpretation teaches that Adam’s sin carried death to all creation, and that although our sin is evidence to this death, it is not Adam’s specific transgression that we have inherited.

In the Orthodox teaching we are subject to sinful tendencies, sickness, suffering and death as the result of our descendence from Adam. With Adam’s sin our nature was changed. Our goal now is to overcome these fallen tendencies with the help of the Holy Spirit and the way of Christ so we can gain union with God and live in harmony with him in Paradise.

In the Orthodox view, guilt can only result from an act which one has committed. We can’t sin for another person. We believe that we need a savior to overcome death and our separation from God, to be forgiven our own transgressions, but not to be forgiven for Adam’s transgression. For Adam, sin came first then death. We inherit death from Adam and our sin follows.

Death is a significant burden for us to carry. Our lives are dominated by the fear of death and our struggle to survive. In this struggle we tend to become self-centered. As a result we can be separated from God. Our salvation involves a transformation from this fearful autonomous state. For eternal life we must be in communion with God and one another.

Augustine in his debate with Pelagius developed the position that only grace is able to save. The Church had always taught that it was both a matter of grace and personal effort or synergia as it was termed. This position of the early Church was abandoned in the west. A concept of legalistic justice was then applied to western theology which led to further differences between east and west and the notion of a wrathful God in the west rather than the loving God of Orthodoxy."

What is "Original Sin?' | Saint George Greek Orthodox Cathedral
 
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Clare73

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Who said that God can't punish His enemies? I didn't! He can even punish His children. (And you will say: "No He doesn't punish His children, He chastise")...
God condemns his enemies (John 3:18, John 3:36).

We are not to treat our (supposed) enemies with condemnation, because we don't know if they are our enemies, they may be children of God not yet born again, in transit to salvation.

It's not complicated. . .
 
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Clare73

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It could mean that, but it's not literally what it says. You are usually very literal, but not in this case ...

I can't buy your explanation, but I will look more into the text.
We'll see what that leads to.
We are not in agreement on the meaning of Romans 5:14 and, therefore, have no basis for discussion.
 
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Clare73

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Thank You
However, the question I meant to ask; Is there any record in the Old Testament of God giving redemption and forgiveness of sins to anyone before Christ.
Salvation was by belief in the Promise (Seed, Jesus Christ, Genesis 3:15, Genesis 15:5),
where we have Abraham as the example (Genesis 15:6).
Salvation in the New Covenant is by belief in Jesus Christ (the Promised Seed, Galatians 3:16).
God did show mercy in the Old Testament, staying His hand but I don't see any evidence of salvation due to works. An orderly civil society and a relationship with God were the rewards for good behavior, not salvation or redemption and eternal life.
I am certain Cain could not have "earned" acceptance or redemption through subsequent good behavior

(Granted, Cain could have been accepted and redeemed as an unmerited act of God's infinite mercy.)
 
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Clare73

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All that verse means is all men will die,
We likewise are not in agreement on the meaning of Romans 5:14 and, therefore, have no basis for discussion.
 
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Jesus is YHWH

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We likewise are not in agreement on the meaning of Romans 5:14 and, therefore, have no basis for discussion.
Of course since your view in unbiblical
 
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misput

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Here is about "original sin" from a site I found on Orthodox faith. I think it was interesting. I didn't know I shared this view with the Orthodox church on "ancestral sin".

"What is the difference in views between Orthodoxy and the western churches?

Original sin (προπατορική αμαρτία in Greek means ancestral sin) is a term used in western churches that is different from what the Church originally taught as ancestral sin. It is a doctrine that comes from the time of Saint Augustine. He was defending the Church against the teaching of Pelagius. Augustine taught that all humanity sinned with Adam. That is, his sin became our personal sin. The consequence is that guilt replaces death as the ancestral inheritance.

It is pointed out that Augustine used a poor translation of Romans 5:12. ἐφ᾿ ᾧ (ef Jw) which means "because of" was translated as "in whom." Sinned in Adam is quite different than sinned because of Adam. The correct interpretation teaches that Adam’s sin carried death to all creation, and that although our sin is evidence to this death, it is not Adam’s specific transgression that we have inherited.

In the Orthodox teaching we are subject to sinful tendencies, sickness, suffering and death as the result of our descendence from Adam. With Adam’s sin our nature was changed. Our goal now is to overcome these fallen tendencies with the help of the Holy Spirit and the way of Christ so we can gain union with God and live in harmony with him in Paradise.

In the Orthodox view, guilt can only result from an act which one has committed. We can’t sin for another person. We believe that we need a savior to overcome death and our separation from God, to be forgiven our own transgressions, but not to be forgiven for Adam’s transgression. For Adam, sin came first then death. We inherit death from Adam and our sin follows.

Death is a significant burden for us to carry. Our lives are dominated by the fear of death and our struggle to survive. In this struggle we tend to become self-centered. As a result we can be separated from God. Our salvation involves a transformation from this fearful autonomous state. For eternal life we must be in communion with God and one another.

Augustine in his debate with Pelagius developed the position that only grace is able to save. The Church had always taught that it was both a matter of grace and personal effort or synergia as it was termed. This position of the early Church was abandoned in the west. A concept of legalistic justice was then applied to western theology which led to further differences between east and west and the notion of a wrathful God in the west rather than the loving God of Orthodoxy."

What is "Original Sin?' | Saint George Greek Orthodox Cathedral
You are on the right track. Sin & guilt has the connotation we have done something wrong. When God said everything was very good we must understand that for there to be good there must be bad, just as for there to be up there must be down, positive vs negative. That is why God said He created evil, evil is just another word for bad, depending on how it is used. It is the natural order of all things.
 
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zoidar

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God condemns his enemies (John 3:18, John 3:36).

We are not to treat our (supposed) enemies with condemnation, because we don't know if they are our enemies, they may be children of God not yet born again, in transit to salvation.

It's not complicated. . .

Not complicated, but an horrendous doctrine.

Jesus replied and said, “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among robbers, and they stripped him and beat him, and went away leaving him half dead. And by chance a priest was going down on that road, and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side. Likewise a Levite also, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. But a Samaritan, who was on a journey, came upon him; and when he saw him, he felt compassion, and came to him and bandaged up his wounds, pouring oil and wine on them; and he put him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn and took care of him. On the next day he took out two denarii and gave them to the innkeeper and said, ‘Take care of him; and whatever more you spend, when I return I will repay you.’ Which of these three do you think proved to be a neighbor to the man who fell into the robbers’ hands?” And he said, “The one who showed mercy toward him.” Then Jesus said to him, “Go and do the same.”
— Luke 10:30-37
 
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QvQ

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but they are, if elect at all, elect from the foundation of the earth
Now I see what you are saying. I was still in the past /future dichotomy whereas to God, time does not have a direction.
 
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atpollard

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Why did you leave out all the Epistles?

When I wrote: “Examining the Gospels (to create a manageable quantity).” … was my explanation for limiting my scope hard to understand? Even restricting the search to JUST the word “love” and JUST the Gospels … my post was already longer than most people would like to read.

Adding all forms of “love” (loved, loves, etc) would have doubled the length of the post. Adding all of the NT would have tripled it again. I am not a fan of “walls of text” posts.

That is why I “omitted the Epistles” (and the OT).
 
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atpollard

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There's at least one glaring omission in your list of mentions of God's love from the gospels. John 3:16 didn't meet your agenda?
Acknowledged.

To avoid creating a “wall of text”, I restricted the search to two specific criteria … the word “love” and the four Gospels. John 3:16 does not say “love”, it says “loved” so it was not quoted.

However, I did offer a nod to John 3:16 in the statement:
You may be able to produce a verse that either appears to say “God loves all men without exception” or may actually say “God loves all men without exception”.​
We could revisit the well worn arguments about the exact meaning of “world” in John 3:16 which COULD mean all men, but that is not the only legitimate honest exegetical reading of the text. Some respectable theologians believe “God loves his creation”, and other theologians believe that “God loves Jews (the chosen people) and non-Jews” (some from every nation, tribe and tongue rather than all without exception).

So even if John 3:16 is included, it is not as explicit a statement that God loves all as some think and claim.
1 Timothy 2:1-7 makes a better argument for “God loves everyone”.
 
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QvQ

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Sin & guilt has the connotation we have done something wrong. When God said everything was very good we must understand that for there to be good there must be bad, just as for there to be up there must be down, positive vs negative. That is why God said He created evil,
If a person is born into darkness, learns to operate, survive and even thrive in the dark by obeying the rules of darkness, there isn't any light or dark, there are only degrees of darkness. Being too dark gets him thumped whereas being just dark enough to get away with it is just for fun and profit.

Now he has it all figured out, how to play the game by the rules of dark. So one day while he is sitting around scheming on ways to win the lottery or make a killing on the stock market so he can afford a better class of friends, out of the corner of his eye he sees a flash of light . He is drawn to the light. It captures his attention. It is fascinating and compelling. One fine day he wakes up, the sun is shining and he asks "Why me, Lord? What did I ever do to deserve loving you?"
 
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