What is wrong with Calvinism ?

[zoidar]

Irrelevant. . .and I have no ideas about Jacob and Esau that Scripture does not present.

Your point?

Like you say God can do whatever He likes, sure! "But don't you dare asking a question like why He does it. Just accept He has the right to do it the way he wants." No place for reason and logic? Is that what you are saying?

I'm asking you why God does it. And you are answering why God has the right to do it. See the problem? I have never questioned if God has the right to do it. And according to you God does it for His purposes. What are His purposes for doing so, choosing A over B, is the question.

 

[zoidar]

Irrelevant. . .and I have no ideas about Jacob and Esau that Scripture does not present.

All is clear in Scripture on the issue of God's sovereignty in choosing whom he chooses for his own purposes, and for no other reason.

So the answer is: God chooses Jimmy over Clark, instead of Clark over Jimmy because of His purposes. And what His purposes for that are we don't know. Right? It's the mystery in Calvinism. But like I said we have the right to believe things even we don't know how and why. It's the same with me and free will.

 

[John Mullally]

Can you show how God regenerating a corrupt and spiritually dead will is coercion? Were you coerced to be born? How is it, then, that changing your will (being born again) is coercion?

I already showed from Ezekiel 18:30-32 that receiving a new heart and spirit first requires repentance. You did not dispute that - maybe because you see that would be an uphill battle. Repentance involves collaboration. So receiving a new heart is a collaborative effort. Collaboration is the opposite of coercion.

And how is considering regeneration as the logically sequenced beginning of a new life in Christ, rather than an effect of "accepting Jesus" accomplished by the spiritually dead, "adding" anything? Are you saying that what the Calvinist/ Reformed refer to as "regeneration" is a different thing from what the Arminian believes it to be? You might be onto something!

There is nothing blocking the Holy Spirit from drawing a man to repentance in response to the preaching of the Gospel. The Holy Spirit can draw the spiritual dead (because that means separated from God). I can't find anything in scripture that says man needs to receive a new heart before repentance.

 

[Clare73]

According to Calvinist's,

So?

Scripture is what matters, and which is what I am presenting.

God channels man's supposed free will wherever He desires.

In agreement with Scripture:
Genesis 20:6; Exodus 3:21, 14:17, 23:27; Deuteronomy 2:25, Deuteronomy 2:30; Joshua 11:20; 1 Samuel 10:9; 2 Samuel 24:1; 1 Kings 22:23; 1 Chronicles 5:26; Ezra 1:1, Ezra 1:5; Nehemiah 2:12, 7:5; Proverbs 21:1; Ezekiel 14:9; Daniel 1:9, 11:36; John 6:37; Acts 2:23, 4:28, 13:48; 2 Corinthians 8:16; Revelation 17:17.

For the answer to man's objection to this, see Romans 9:19-21.

They say man is total depraved

In agreement with Scripture:
Romans 3:9-18, Romans 8:7-8; 1 Corinthians 2:14; John 3:3-8.

and must follow the dictates of satan.

He doesn't need the "dictates of Satan," his own fallen disposition does a very good job on its own.

Except for the foreordained ones for whom at some point He changes their hearts,

In agreement with Scripture:
Philippians 2:13; 1 Corinthians 12:6, 1 Corinthians 15:10; Hebrews 8:10, Hebrews 13:21.

and all of a sudden they can freely and willingly cooperate with God. Calvinist's preach that God receives glory from the destruction of the ones He left in the state of Total Depravity (a state in which they are unable to cooperate with God).

In agreement with Scripture:
Romans 9:17, Romans 9:22-23; Exodus 14:4, Exodus 14:17.

No, God is not like that

Scripture reveals otherwise.
Seems "Calvinism" is in agreement with Scripture.

Your issue is not with "Calvinism," your issue is with Scripture.

 

[Clare73]

Like you say God can do whatever He likes, sure! "But don't you dare asking a question like why He does it. Just accept He has the right to do it the way he wants." No place for reason and logic? Is that what you are saying?
I'm asking you why God does it. And you are answering why God has the right to do it. See the problem?

Paul saw the problem clearly, and give the answer in Romans 9:19-23.

And I'm not expecting his answer to be improved upon.

I have never questioned if God has the right to do it. And according to you God does it for His purposes. What are His purposes for doing so, choosing A over B, is the question.

Your answer to that question is in Romans 9:22-23.

Also see Deuteronomy 29:29; Romans 11:33.

 

[zoidar]

Your issue is not with "Calvinism," your issue is with Scripture.

 

[Clare73]

So the answer is: God chooses Jimmy over Clark, instead of Clark over Jimmy because of His purposes. And what His purposes for that are we don't know. Right? It's
the mystery in Calvinism.

"Mystery" being simply unknown, unrevealed, and not impossible to understand.

And it's not peculiar to "Calvinism," it is Scripture.
You are sayng that "Calvinism" is Scripture.

But like I said we have the right to believe things even we don't know how and why. It's the same with me and free will.

We know how and what, including regarding free will, and that is enough.

I don't need to know why, what is enough for me.

 

[John Mullally]

So?

Scripture is what matters, and which is what I am presenting.

In agreement with Scripture:
Genesis 20:6; Exodus 3:21, 14:17, 23:27; Deuteronomy 2:25, Deuteronomy 2:30; Joshua 11:20; 1 Samuel 10:9; 2 Samuel 24:1; 1 Kings 22:23; 1 Chronicles 5:26; Ezra 1:1, Ezra 1:5; Nehemiah 2:12, 7:5; Proverbs 21:1; Ezekiel 14:9; Daniel 1:9, 11:36; John 6:37; Acts 2:23, 4:28, 13:48; 2 Corinthians 8:16; Revelation 17:17.

For the answer to man's objection to this, see Romans 9:19-21.

In agreement with Scripture:
Romans 8:7-8; 1 Corinthians 2:14; John 3:3-8.

He doesn't need the "dictates of Satan," his own fallen disposition does a very good job on its own.

In agreement with Scripture:
Philippians 2:13; 1 Corinthians 12:6, 1 Corinthians 15:10; Hebrews 8:10, Hebrews 13:21.

In agreement with Scripture:
Romans 9:17, Romans 9:22-23; Exodus 14:4, Exodus 14:17.

Scripture reveals otherwise.

Your issue is not with "Calvinism," your issue is with Scripture.

One of the more problematic mechanisms of argumentation is the laundry list, the lengthy list proffered in support of a position by its advocate in an effort to demonstrate two related points: first, that the target of the argument is nothing new, and second, that there is a wealth of support for the line of reasoning, if not the particular application, of the argument.

It’s also a problem that a list has surface appeal, so the absence of being able to individually address each item on the list leaves the decision-maker with the superficial sense that the list has some merit.

Beware the laundry list. Its use as a rhetorical device invariably conceals its failure of support. If there was direct logical support for the proposition for which it’s being offered, the advocate wouldn’t need to throw everything against the wall, but would focus on the specific argument that conclusively demonstrates the propriety of the position.

The Laundry List Approach: How To Bury Your Failed Position

 

[Clare73]

So, you are asking what Scripture presents?

Don't use the word "Calvinism" if you want to discuss what Scripture presents.

 

[Clare73]

One of the more problematic mechanisms of argumentation is the laundry list, the lengthy list proffered in support of a position by its advocate in an effort to demonstrate two related points: first, that the target of the argument is nothing new, and second, that there is a wealth of support for the line of reasoning, if not the particular application, of the argument.

It’s also a problem that a list has surface appeal, so the absence of being able to individually address each item on the list leaves the decision-maker with the superficial sense that the list has some merit.
Beware the laundry list. Its use as a rhetorical device
invariably conceals its failure of support.

Biblical assertion without Biblical demonstration is without Biblical merit.

If there was direct logical support for the proposition for which it’s being offered, the advocate wouldn’t need to throw everything against the wall, but would focus on the specific argument that conclusively demonstrates the propriety of the position.

Who made that rule?

And the Scriptures presented do precisely that.

I'm sure there is some logic in there somewhere, but I don't see it.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Did i ever say they were not.
Again angles were created before the creation in Genesis 1. And as i stated before when the word creation is used, what comes to mind is the creation account in Genesis 1 and not the creation of angles.

No they were not . Creation happened in the 6 days of Genesis 1,

next

 

[zoidar]

I don't need to know why, what is enough for me.

Thank you! That's what wanted to hear from you.

 

[iwbswiaihl]

[QUOTE="Mark Quayle,

Saw you ask about schoolboy and he did mention that he is an arm wrestler, can be seen on youtube videos, from a very young 16 or so, he took on and beat many much older than himself. Saw on where he was at an event and took all comers, one right after another. Just maybe the one who mentioned him was giving you an atta boy, for your replies to others.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Frame of reference for what? The society into which I was born and in which I was raised?Non-denom, though I suppose I could say, Protestant, evangelistic, fundamentalist, Arminian-leaning, Wesleyan mentality (but not the "Second Work of Grace" teaching), Southern Methodist style, Dispensationalist teaching. And the Bible College of my reference was definitely non-denom.

What is your frame of reference?

Baptists mostly, so the experience would greatly vary.

In Canada, the methodist denomination merged with others in the past to become the United Church, which is fairly liberal in nature. So imagining a Wesleyan Calvinist isn't really in my frame of reference.

Glad I asked.

 

[iwbswiaihl]

There is nothing in the world of my sovereign God that he didn't ordain. (Daniel 4:35)

You might want to rethink that statement-------did He ordain rape, murder etc

 

[Clare73]

I don't need to know why, what is enough for me.

Thank you! That's what wanted to hear from you.

But I think Romans 9:23 tells us why.

 

[Clare73]

You might want to rethink that statement-------did He ordain rape, murder etc

He ordained the murder of his own Son.

He ordained sin.

 

[zoidar]

But I think Romans 9:23 tells us why.

Yeah, but like I know why the king drives a limo, because he is king.

 

[Clare73]

Yeah, but like I know why the king drives a limo, because he is king.

What about it do you not understand?

 

[zoidar]

What about it do you not understand?

I understand perfectly. The king drives a limo because he has purposes for it.