What is wrong with Calvinism ?

[iwbswiaihl]

Ok, let’s review my position on 1 Timothy 2:4

John made the following brief, blanket statement about two specific verses (one of which was 1 Timothy 2:4):


To John’s brief exegesis, I responded with the following statement on 1 Timothy 2:4 …


In short, I AGREED that 1 Timothy 2:4 could be reasonably exegeted, based on the surrounding context of 1 Timothy, to support the opinion that “God desires all to be saved”. Since I had no disagreement with the stated conclusion, I saw no need for a more detailed discussion. I had nothing to add to the brief point that John had made on 1 Timothy 2:4.

Your piling on of cheery-picked verses from other books of the Bible to challenge my agreement with John’s opinion on 1 Timothy 2:4 just leaves me confused about what it is that you expect from me.

To be truthful, I have been trying to locate where I first replied to your first post that I replied too, and I haven't found it yet. But what you are saying above I would agree to fully, and if that verse is what I first responded to, I don't see why I would have responded with anything but an agree. I think it was one maybe with the 2 Peter reference in it also, I will keep looking. I am 79 and know that my memory is not as good as it use to be, but at least I remember when I forget something, the doctor told me if I remember that I forgot, then its only a sign of old age, but if I don't remember that I forgot things, then I had a serious problem.

see post #1006

 

[Clare73]

Recently went to Lexington KY to the original KFC, had my picture next to the Col Sander figure. Can't tell the difference.
View attachment 316871

Yep! You're still cute!

 

[Clare73]

To be truthful, I have been trying to locate where I first replied to your first post that I replied too, and I haven't found it yet. But what you are saying above I would agree to fully, and if that verse is what I first responded to, I don't see why I would have responded with anything but an agree. I think it was one maybe with the 2 Peter reference in it also, I will keep looking. I am 79 and know that my memory is not as good as it use to be, but at least I remember when I forget something, the doctor told me if I remember that I forgot, then its only a sign of old age, but if I don't remember that I forgot things, then I had a serious problem.

Is this the Old Codgers thread?

Or is it the Wisdom thread?

 

[iwbswiaihl]

Is this the Old Codgers thread?

Or is it the Wisdom thread?

I am fully sure concerning the old folks, haven't decided yet if I would be here if it's the wisdom thread!

 

[iwbswiaihl]

To be truthful, I have been trying to locate where I first replied to your first post that I replied too, and I haven't found it yet. But what you are saying above I would agree to fully, and if that verse is what I first responded to, I don't see why I would have responded with anything but an agree. I think it was one maybe with the 2 Peter reference in it also, I will keep looking. I am 79 and know that my memory is not as good as it use to be, but at least I remember when I forget something, the doctor told me if I remember that I forgot, then its only a sign of old age, but if I don't remember that I forgot things, then I had a serious problem.

Added later: I did find the post, #968. I am rereading it closely. Will respond,---------------in time?

 

[AVB 2]

God clearly predestines events, primarily concerning Christ. He does not predestine individual salvation. He stands at the door and knocks but it is up to us whether to let Him in or not. Whosoever believes, not whosoever He chooses.

So then "I am the master of my fate, the captain of my soul." Thank you Mr. Henley, but you are wrong, Jesus Christ is the master of my fate, the captain of my soul.

Free will is a necessary evil. Sometimes God allows what He hates in order to accomplish what He loves. "Free will has led many a soul to Hell, but never one to heaven. Spurgeon. God chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world, thereby guaranteeing that heaven will be full.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

So then "I am the master of my fate, the captain of my soul." Thank you Mr. Henley, but you are wrong, Jesus Christ is the master of my fate, the captain of my soul.

Free will is a necessary evil. Sometimes God allows what He hates in order to accomplish what He loves. "Free will has led many a soul to Hell, but never one to heaven. Spurgeon. God chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world, thereby guaranteeing that heaven will be full.

Ah the old prince of preachers they called Spurgeon who went on record declaring tulip is the gospel and since Arminians deny tulip they cannot be saved according to Spurgeons own reasoning.

C.H. Spurgeon :

I have my own private opinion that there is no such thing as preaching Christ and Him crucified unless we preach what nowadays is called Calvinism. It is a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the Gospel and nothing else. I do not believe we can preach the Gospel if we do not preach justification by faith, without works; nor unless we preach the sovereignty of God in His dispensation of grace; nor unless we exalt the electing, unchangeable, eternal, immutable, conquering love of Jehovah; nor can I comprehend a Gospel which lets saints fall away after they are called and suffers the children of God to be burned in the fires of damnation after having once believed in Jesus. Such a Gospel I abhor.


The Five Points of Calvinism – Defining the Doctrines of Grace

Known as both the Doctrines of Grace and the Five Points of Calvinism, these doctrines are succinct summaries of what the Bible teaches about salvation.

reasonabletheology.org

 

[Clare73]

I am fully sure concerning the old folks,
haven't decided yet if I would be here if it's the wisdom thread!

Unless they're simultaneous!

 

[Clare73]

Ah the old prince of preachers they called Spurgeon who went on record declaring tulip is the gospel and since Arminians deny tulip they cannot be saved according to Spurgeons own reasoning.

Is this what I am talking about, in reference to misrepresentation regarding "Calvinism"?

Where does Spurgeon deny salvation to Arminians, or anyone else, who does not agree with TULIP?

He does not.
He simply asserts that their theology is incorrect.
Where in Scripture are we lost because of less-than-correct theological points?

Does such misrepresentation of Spurgeon actually refute "Calvinism," and elevate "Arminianism?"
I think not. . .it simply discredits "Arminianism" for a lack of thoroughness in the understanding of its adherents.

C.H. Spurgeon :

I have my own private opinion that there is no such thing as preaching Christ and Him crucified unless we preach what nowadays is called Calvinism. It is a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the Gospel and nothing else. I do not believe we can preach the Gospel if we do not preach justification by faith, without works; nor unless we preach the sovereignty of God in His dispensation of grace; nor unless we exalt the electing, unchangeable, eternal, immutable, conquering love of Jehovah; nor can I comprehend a Gospel which lets saints fall away after they are called and suffers the children of God to be burned in the fires of damnation after having once believed in Jesus. Such a Gospel I abhor.


The Five Points of Calvinism – Defining the Doctrines of Grace

Known as both the Doctrines of Grace and the Five Points of Calvinism, these doctrines are succinct summaries of what the Bible teaches about salvation.

reasonabletheology.org

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Is this what I am talking about, in reference to misrepresentation regarding "Calvinism"?

Where does Spurgeon deny salvation to Arminians, or anyone else, who does not agree with TULIP?

He does not.
He simply asserts that their theology is incorrect.
Where in Scripture are we lost because of less-than-correct theological points?

Does such misrepresentation of Spurgeon actually refute "Calvinism," and elevate "Arminianism?"
I think not. . .it simply discredits "Arminianism" for a lack of thoroughness in the understanding of its adherents.

Do you understand tulip ?
He said tulip is the gospel by which we are saved
Arminians deny tulip
Spurgeon said tulip is the gospel and abhors any other gospel
So by default since Arminians deny his gospel they cannot be saved.

hope this helps !!!

 

[iwbswiaihl]

So then "I am the master of my fate, the captain of my soul." Thank you Mr. Henley, but you are wrong, Jesus Christ is the master of my fate, the captain of my soul.

Free will is a necessary evil. Sometimes God allows what He hates in order to accomplish what He loves. "Free will has led many a soul to Hell, but never one to heaven. Spurgeon. God chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world, thereby guaranteeing that heaven will be full.

 

[iwbswiaihl]

Spurgeon. God chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world, thereby guaranteeing that heaven will be full. But is that not what it says in John:1: 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all through him might believe. 8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. Notice v9, He gives light to every man coming into the world, 11 meaning, the Jews, many did not receive Him, but the 1000 years reign they will as a whole will come to faith, v12 But to as many as received Him, to them He gave the right (the power in some translations) to become the children of God. This to me is what God predestined, that all who do come to Him( believe the gospel and confess Jesus is Lord) will receive eternal life and will have all the blessings of being in Christ, they will want to reject the natural flesh and obey the gospel teaching, why, Eph 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. Phil 2:12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

 

[RickReads]

Spurgeon. God chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world, thereby guaranteeing that heaven will be full. But is that not what it says in John:1: 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all through him might believe. 8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. Notice v9, He gives light to every man coming into the world, 11 meaning, the Jews, many did not receive Him, but the 1000 years reign they will as a whole will come to faith, v12 But to as many as received Him, to them He gave the right (the power in some translations) to become the children of God. This to me is what God predestined, that all who do come to Him( believe the gospel and confess Jesus is Lord) will receive eternal life and will have all the blessings of being in Christ, they will want to reject the natural flesh and obey the gospel teaching, why, Eph 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. Phil 2:12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

John 10

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

30 I and my Father are one.

31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.

Brother, the elect are given an ability to hear the gospel that people of this world do not possess.

 

[Clare73]

Do you understand tulip ?
He said tulip is the gospel by which we are saved
Arminians deny tulip
Spurgeon said tulip is the gospel and abhors any other gospel
So by default since Arminians deny his gospel they cannot be saved.

hope this helps !!!

And according to Arminians, by default since TULIPists "deny his gospel they cannot be saved?"
Methinks the pot is calling the kettle black.

Spurgeon identifies "TULIP" as a statement of the gospel presented in the NT.
If that is true, it is the gospel that denies salvation, not "TULIP."

You identify "Arminianism" as a statement of the gospel presented in the NT.
If that is true, it is the gospel that denies salvation, not "Arminianism."

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

And according to Arminians, by default since TULIPists "deny his gospel they cannot be saved?"
Methinks the pot is calling the kettle black.

Spurgeon identifies "TULIP" as a statement of the gospel presented in the NT.
If that is true, it is the gospel that denies salvation, not "TULIP."

You identify "Arminianism" as a statement of the gospel presented in the NT.
If that is true, it is the gospel that denies salvation, not "Arminianism."

Equivocating

 

[iwbswiaihl]

RicK: I seemed to have done it again, my reading comprehension must be on vacation(I hope that is all) that is the reason I deleted the conversation(s)

 

[RickReads]

Let's see the whole picture and context: starting in verse Chapter 10, Jesus begins this chapter by describing those who do not enter the sheepfold by the door, and we told in v7 He is the door, and all who ever enters by Him, he will be saved.

Ch: 10:1 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door, but climbs up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. 2 But he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. 3 To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice; and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 And when he brings out his own sheep, he goes before them; and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice. 5 Yet they will by no means follow a stranger, but will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers.” 6 Jesus used this illustration, but they did not understand the things which He spoke to them.
Jesus the Good Shepherd
7 Then Jesus said to them again, “Most assuredly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. 8 All who ever came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them. 9 "I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture". 10 The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly. 11 “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep.

That seems to tell us who are the saved and then to be short on this post, we get to look at who you mention are those of the lost: your verses that you posted follow these which also were left out: 25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.”

Now these verses seems to tell us who the lost or NOT SAVED are; v25 those who do not believe, why: they are not His sheep: what did He say then? v26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.”

Now in context, we see who and how Jesus declared His sheep and we see who and why the verses you showed actually are the ones who did not believe.

But verse 27 is about the elect. I don't know what your point is regarding that.

 

[RickReads]

RicK: I seemed to have done it again, my reading comprehension must be on vacation(I hope that is all) that is the reason I deleted the conversation(s)

It's ok, don't worry about it. I just felt compelled to clarify my point. Your honesty testifies to your integrity.

 

[iwbswiaihl]

But verse 27 is about the elect. I don't know what your point is regarding that.

You are right, again, I just noticed my replies for some reason I meant to reply to another post and somehow I responded as if that was my reply. I can not see how I am doing this, and well cease replying for the time being, again, forgive me and have a great day.

 

[RickReads]

You are right, again, I just noticed my replies for some reason I meant to reply to another post and somehow I responded as if that was my reply. I can not see how I am doing this, and well cease replying for the time being, again, forgive me and have a great day.

Everyone makes mistakes and most lack the courage to admit when they do. You are fine and your comments contribute to the whole. No need to give this another thought.