What is wrong with Calvinism ?

[Clare73]

I believe that the passage in Romans, that speaks of Isaac, is not speaking of God loving some and hating others. But rather is using the story as a picture to represent the "promise of faith". As in other writings, Paul refers to Isaac being a child of promise.

Correct.

In vindicating God's righteousness in his rejection of Israel in Romans 9, Paul demonstrates that
not all Israel is Israel, that throughout Israel's history God has operated in a pattern of sovereign separation/choice:

1) separation (Isaac and Ishmael) based on God's choice of (promise to) Sarah,

2) separation (Jacob and Esau) based on nothing but Gods absolutely sovereign choice of Jacob, and

3) separation again (belief and unbelief--but fulfilling his promise to Israel in a believing remnant),
with God's choice of the Gentiles in Israel's stead (Romans 11:19). . .

which separating and choosing in the old covenant is a demonstration of God's
4) separating and choosing in the new covenant (Ephesians 1:5, Ephesians 1:11; Romans 8:29-30).

In the exercise of his absolute sovereignty in the disposition of men (above),
God fails neither in his promise to Israel (fulfilled in a remnant),
nor in his purpose of the gospel; i.e., the offer of salvation to the world.

So what's the problem with the absolute sovereignty of God in the disposing of men?

Gal 4:23-28 Howbeit the son by the handmaid is born after the flesh; but the son by the freewoman is born through promise... Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise.

What is the promise, that of faith:

Gal 3:6-7 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness. Know therefore that they that are of faith, the same are sons of Abraham.

To me it is not a matter of some people can not have faith, but rather those who respond in faith to God's call can become sons.

John 12:36 While ye have the light, believe on the light, that ye may become sons of light. These things spake Jesus, and he departed and hid himself from them.

Joh 1:9-12 That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world ... But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:

Is Predestination real? | Everybody Matters Ministry

 

[iwbswiaihl]

All men have the law which is the knowledge of good and evil, even if it is just through their conscience.Do you think Cain knew it was wrong to kill his brother?

Yes, Gen 4:13 Then Cain said to the Lord, “I am being punished more than I can take! Plus the fact of the conscience, it convicts of the difference between right and wrong, this is what Paul was saying in Romans 2:14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves. Rom 2:12 For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. I believe if we look at Adam and Eve in the garden we will see that conscience is the means by which all mankind from Adam and Eve were convicted by their conscience of right and wrong, look at what happen when they had disobeyed the Lord's command and ate of the tree of knowledge, when the Lord came down to talk to them in the garden after this, what was their first act? They hid from the Lord, why, I would say conscience convicted them of the wrong and they hid. Proverbs 20:27 The spirit of a man is the lamp of the LORD, Searching all the inner depths of his heart. No one had to tell Adam and Eve that they had sinned. Looking up all the 29 references of conscience in the NT is a good study of its importance, of course, the Holy Spirit guides the believers into all truths, and it would seem to me that our thoughts from our mind must be examined to discern what we can or can't do, the good thoughts come from leading of Holy Spirit, the carnal thoughts from the old nature must not be allowed to bear fruit, something like the scripture when it says, John 14:26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you. John 15:26 “But when the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness about me. 1 John2:27 But the anointing that you received from him abides in you, and you have no need that anyone should teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about everything, and is true, and is no lie—just as it has taught you, abide in him. The verse I showed above shows this vital principle: Pro 20:27 The spirit of a man is the lamp of the LORD, Searching all the inner depths of his heart.

Saying what I did about the Holy Spirit bearing witness with our spirit is how I have come to believe that my thoughts are either of the old fleshly nature or the thoughts from the Holy Spirit to my spirit guiding me to do right and hear the thought He wants me to have, example, I use to say when a good thought or even finding an item that I had lost and casting that care to the Lord as a simple prayer, telling Him I need that item and I am casting that care to Him, I can not tell you how many of the item I have located in a short time. I used to would say, I am glad I though of that, or found the item, but sense coming to believe this is what He wants us to do. I thank Him and move on. I do believe that we all need to be listening and identifying where the thoughts come from which are going around in our minds, how else would the Holy Spirit inform us except by the thoughts we have. Plus the fact He does tell us to examine our selves that we are in the faith, doing what is right, rejecting the fleshly thoughts as quickly as possible and following the good thoughts to be the light in the world. Just think about this and freely share what you think about it.

 

[atpollard]

I must take issue with your out-of-context quote. It should read "A text without a context is a pretext. Just sayin'

“The old grey matter, ain’t a what it used to be” [sung to the tune of ‘The Old Grey Mare’].

 

[Der Alte]

“The old grey matter, ain’t a what it used to be” [sung to the tune of ‘The Old Grey Mare’].

Speaking of faulty grey matter. See that picture over there <= that's me about age 1 the president was FDR. Glad you took my post in the humorous spirit it was intended.

 

[atpollard]

Whether I responded directly at your text, I did show where in other text talking about the same subject that you mentioned in Timothy that your statement did not agree with the rest of scripture on the same subject.

Ok, let’s review my position on 1 Timothy 2:4

John made the following brief, blanket statement about two specific verses (one of which was 1 Timothy 2:4):

1 Timothy 2:4 and 2 Peter 3:9 tell us that God desires all to be saved. The purposes of God are in alignment with that.

To John’s brief exegesis, I responded with the following statement on 1 Timothy 2:4 …

1 Timothy 2 supports that within the context of the surrounding the verses.

In short, I AGREED that 1 Timothy 2:4 could be reasonably exegeted, based on the surrounding context of 1 Timothy, to support the opinion that “God desires all to be saved”. Since I had no disagreement with the stated conclusion, I saw no need for a more detailed discussion. I had nothing to add to the brief point that John had made on 1 Timothy 2:4.

Your piling on of cheery-picked verses from other books of the Bible to challenge my agreement with John’s opinion on 1 Timothy 2:4 just leaves me confused about what it is that you expect from me.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

It is demonstration by Paul of God's sovereign separation/choice, in Paul's vindication of God's righteousness in rejecting Israel:

1) separation (Isaac and Ishmael) based on God's choice of (promise to) Sarah,

2) separation (Jacob and Esau) based on nothing but Gods absolutely sovereign choice of Jacob, and

3) separation again (belief and unbelief--fulfilling his promise to Israel in a believing remnant only),
with God's choice of the Gentiles in Israel's stead (Romans 11:19). . .

which separating and choosing in the old covenant is a demonstration of God's
4) separating and choosing in the new covenant (Ephesians 1:5, Ephesians 1:11; Romans 8:29-30).

As a Calvinist, I know you believe that it is all about "sovereign choice". But is that actually true?

Let's look at the scriptures below:

John 12:36 While ye have the light, believe on the light, that ye may become sons of light. These things spake Jesus, and he departed and hid himself from them.

Joh 1:9-12 That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world ... But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:​

Who are sons? Those who believe in the light "while they have it". Light is temporary, but given to "every man coming into the world". Blindness will come if one does not receive the light.

Luke 13:34 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, but you were not willing!

John 5:40 But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.​

Blindness can come, but only as a result of rejecting the truth revealed to all men.

2Th 2:10-12 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.​

But note light is given to all men. As we see an example in Job. There is a two-fold pathway for people to choose. One ends in life the other destruction. But note, that their "ears are open".

Job 36:10-12 He also opens their ear to instruction, And commands that they turn from iniquity. If they obey and serve Him, They shall spend their days in prosperity, And their years in pleasures. But if they do not obey, They shall perish by the sword, And they shall die without knowledge.​

Notice obedience is important, even Cain was told he could have life if he sought it, if he did well.

1 Ch 28:9 And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind; for Jehovah searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: If thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever.

Isa 1:19-20 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land: but if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword; for the mouth of Jehovah hath spoken it.

Gen 4:6-7 And the Lord said to Cain, Why are you angry? and why is your face sad? If you do well, will you not have honour? and if you do wrong, sin is waiting at the door, desiring to have you, but do not let it be your master.​

Obedience works together with faith resulting in salvation.

John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.​

 

[ReverendRV]

As a Calvinist, I know you believe that it is all about "sovereign choice". But is that actually true?

Let's look at the scriptures below:

John 12:36 While ye have the light, believe on the light, that ye may become sons of light. These things spake Jesus, and he departed and hid himself from them.

Joh 1:9-12 That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world ... But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:​

Who are sons? Those who believe in the light "while they have it". Light is temporary, but given to "every man coming into the world". Blindness will come if one does not receive the light.

Luke 13:34 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, but you were not willing!

John 5:40 But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.​

Blindness can come, but only as a result of rejecting the truth revealed to all men.

2Th 2:10-12 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.​

But note light is given to all men. As we see an example in Job. There is a two-fold pathway for people to choose. One ends in life the other destruction. But note, that their "ears are open".

Job 36:10-12 He also opens their ear to instruction, And commands that they turn from iniquity. If they obey and serve Him, They shall spend their days in prosperity, And their years in pleasures. But if they do not obey, They shall perish by the sword, And they shall die without knowledge.​

Notice obedience is important, even Cain was told he could have life if he sought it, if he did well.

1 Ch 28:9 And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind; for Jehovah searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: If thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever.

Isa 1:19-20 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land: but if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword; for the mouth of Jehovah hath spoken it.

Gen 4:6-7 And the Lord said to Cain, Why are you angry? and why is your face sad? If you do well, will you not have honour? and if you do wrong, sin is waiting at the door, desiring to have you, but do not let it be your master.​

Obedience works together with faith resulting in salvation.

John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.​

Hey @FutureAndAHope !

Do you believe we are Saved by Prevenient Faith?

 

[FutureAndAHope]

God's promises are conditional, as we see:

Jer 18:10 if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it.

They are not fixed. Even Abraham sealed his call to be the father of nations by his works. As God said "because you have done this thing, and have not withheld your son"

Gen 22:12 And He said, "Do not lay your hand on the lad, or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me."

Gen 22:16-17 and said: "By Myself I have sworn, says the LORD, because you have done this thing, and have not withheld your son, your only son— blessing I will bless you, and multiplying I will multiply your descendants as the stars of the heaven and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your descendants shall possess the gate of their enemies.

Jas 2:21-24 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS ACCOUNTED TO HIM FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS." And he was called the friend of God. You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

The promise comes, we believe, and we follow the command.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Hey @FutureAndAHope !

Do you believe we are Saved by Prevenient Faith?

If it is as Wesley says, "prevenient grace is a grace that God gives to open up the will of a sinner so that everyone has the opportunity to freely choose or not choose to trust in Jesus Christ for salvation".

Yes, I do believe that.

 

[Clare73]

Speaking of faulty grey matter. See that picture over there <= that's me about age 1 the president was FDR. Glad you took my post in the humorous spirit it was intended.

Are you still that cute?

 

[ReverendRV]

If it is as Wesley says, "prevenient grace is a grace that God gives to open up the will of a sinner so that everyone has the opportunity to freely choose or not choose to trust in Jesus Christ for salvation".

Yes, I do believe that.

Just to be clear, you believe in Prevenient Grace, not Prevenient Faith?

 

[Clare73]

Correct. In vindicating God's righteousness in his rejection of Israel, Paul in Romans 9 is demonstrating God's pattern of sovereign separation/choice throughout their history:
1) separation (Isaac and Ishmael) based on God's choice of (promise to) Sarah,
2) separation (Jacob and Esau) based on nothing but Gods absolutely sovereign choice of Jacob,
3) separation (belief and unbelief--fulfilling his promise to Israel in a believing remnant only),
with God's choice of the Gentiles in Israel's stead (Romans 11:19). . .

which separating and choosing in the old covenant is a demonstration of God's
4) separating and choosing in the new covenant (Ephesians 1:5, Ephesians 1:11; Romans 8:29-30).
In the exercise of his absolute sovereignty in the disposition of men (above),
God fails neither in his promise to Israel (fulfilled in a remnant),
nor in his purpose of the gospel; i.e., the offer of salvation to the world.
So what's the problem with the absolute sovereignty of God in the disposing of men?

As a Calvinist, I know you believe that it is all about "sovereign choice". But is that actually true?

I can't call myself a "Calvinist" because I don't know precisely what he taught.
The stuff attributed to him out here is all over the map.
And a lot of it sounds false.

However, I am a Paulist. I take my theology from Paul for I know what Paul taught.

 

[ReverendRV]

I can't call myself a "Calvinist" because I don't know precisely what he taught.
The stuff attributed to him out here is all over the map.
And a lot of it sounds false.

However, I am a Paulist. I take my theology from Paul.

Since I'm a Baptist, I differ from Calvin who was Presbyterian; though I agree with him about the Doctrines of Grace and the 5-Solas...

Regarding Soteriology, these two things are all it takes to identify as a Calvinist...

 

[Clare73]

Since I'm a Baptist, I differ from Calvin who was Presbyterian; though I agree with him about the Doctrines of Grace and the 5-Solas...

Regarding Soteriology, these two things are all it takes to identify as a Calvinist...

Are the 5-Solas the TULIP?
Because supposedly the TULIP is not his.

What is the simple difference between Baptist and Presbyterian?

 

[ReverendRV]

Are the 5-Solas the TULIP?

No...

Scripture Alone
Grace Alone
Faith Alone
Christ Alone
Glory to God Alone


The Doctrines of Grace are another term for TULIP...

 

[Clare73]

No...

Scripture Alone
Grace Alone
Faith Alone
Christ Alone
Glory to God Alone

Good for him!

What is the simple difference between Baptist and Presbyterian?

 

[ReverendRV]

Good for him!

What is the simple difference between Baptist and Presbyterian?

Mainly Baptism and Church Government...

 

[Der Alte]

Are you still that cute?

Recently went to Lexington KY to the original KFC, had my picture next to the Col Sander figure. Can't tell the difference.

 

[John Mullally]

So if they are out of context tell what the context is actually saying and why they would be out of context concerning the statements in "" :1 Tim 2:4 "who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth".
Eze 18:32 "For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Lord God; so turn, and live.”
Eze 18:23 "Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, declares the Lord God, and not rather that he should turn from his way and live"?
Eze 33:11 Say to them, As I live, "declares the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live; turn back, turn back from your evil ways, for why will you die, O house of Israel"?

Also any passages on Christ’s propitiation being made.for all men (like 1 Timothy 2:6, 1 John 2:2, and Romans 5:18), effectively say that God desires all to be saved. God did not have Christ die for anyone He did not want saved. Repeating myself: Christ’s payment is only received by faith (hebrews 4:1-2).

 

[ViaCrucis]

Since I'm a Baptist, I differ from Calvin who was Presbyterian; though I agree with him about the Doctrines of Grace and the 5-Solas...

Regarding Soteriology, these two things are all it takes to identify as a Calvinist...

I think you may be conflating Presbyterianism with the Reformed tradition; the Presbyterian tradition is part of the larger Reformed tradition, but Calvin wasn't a Presbyterian. The Presbyterian tradition arose under the Scottish Reformed theologian John Knox.

-CryptoLutheran