What is wrong with Calvinism ?

[RickReads]

@Clare73 You just agreed with me twice in a row. If you don't stop trying to frighten me I`ll have to tell the authorities.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Romans 9 says it is.

Romans 9 is one passage in scripture, there are many scriptures to look over when making a decision on who God is, and who God is not. When looking at Romans 9, you need to look over all revelation from the Bible. The vast majority of biblical text tells us that "choosing the right, over wrong" is vitally important to the destiny we have. I will present one of my favorite scriptures on this. Cain. No one can disagree that Cain was called a child of the devil due to his rejection of God, and the killing of his brother. As we see here:

1Jn 3:12 not as Cain who was of the wicked one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his works were evil and his brother's righteous.​

As a Calvinist you would say Cain never had a chance, that he was "Predestined for Destruction". But that is not what God said, and we know God is no lier. God said to Cain:

Gen 4:6-7 So the LORD said to Cain, "Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen? If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it."
​

Now I ask you, according to God:

• Did Cain have a chance, if he did well?
• Did God lie to Cain?

Please answer those questions. It also makes more logical sense that God would give light to all people, and based upon their acceptance or rejection of the light grant salvation:

John 1:9 That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.

It is truly, that Cain's "works were evil and his brother's righteous". Not that Cain was destined by God's sovereign choice to hell. As the bible says:

Eze 18:32 For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies," says the Lord GOD. "Therefore turn and live!"

Eze 33:11 Say to them: 'As I live,' says the Lord GOD, 'I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?'

Yet you would say God does take pleasure in their death, that He in fact planned it, to display His wrath, people given no choice, no chance. Hopeless at the hand of a brutal God. Think about your theology before swallowing a handful of scriptures.

 

[atpollard]

Romans 9 is one passage in scripture, there are many scriptures to look over when making a decision on who God is, and who God is not.

Respectfully, Romans 9 is an entire chapter that discusses the sovereignty of God, making it a reasonable place for someone to look if they wanted to know if scripture speaks about the sovereignty of God.

When looking at Romans 9, you need to look over all revelation from the Bible.

“One must look at all of scripture” sounds pious, but is really more of a cop out used to reject what Romans 9 DOES SAY without having to actually read or discuss it. It allows you to just throw up some carefully selected verses stripped from their context in a game of “scripture pong”.

If ALL of scripture must be examined, explain the role of the Genesis account of the digging of Jacob’s Well in God’s sovereign election (or lack of election).

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Or would I want to have love, peace, joy, gentleness, kindness, patience, goodness, faithfulness and self control in my life?

Can a Calvinistic viewpoint really explain what love is? Kindness? Goodness?

You see a man in the street, do you have love for him? Why? God may not love him.

God's love is for all, it is "without partiality", it is the rejection of His love that God hates. God does not have a naughty and nice list, where He is the one who determines on whom he will be naughty and on whom he will be nice.

Is that "love"?

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Can a Calvinistic viewpoint really explain what love is? Kindness? Goodness?

You see a man in the street, do you have love for him? Why? God may not love him.

God's love is for all, it is "without partiality", it is the rejection of His love that God hates. God does not have a naughty and nice list, where He is the one who determines on whom he will be naughty and on whom he will be nice.

Is that "love"?

It’s the greatest reason of all to reject it’s teaching .

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

It’s the greatest reason of all to reject it’s teaching .

But Calvinists don't teach that. They teach the Scripture: "God so loved the world that He gave His only Son that whosoever believes in Him will not perish but have everlasting life." And, "Even while we were yet sinners, Christ loved us and gave Himself for us." So, how does that fit with Calvinists not loving all people?

There seems to be a lot of loony tunes accusations leveled at Calvinists.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Respectfully, Romans 9 is an entire chapter that discusses the sovereignty of God, making it a reasonable place for someone to look if they wanted to know if scripture speaks about the sovereignty of God.



“One must look at all of scripture” sounds pious, but is really more of a cop out used to reject what Romans 9 DOES SAY without having to actually read or discuss it. It allows you to just throw up some carefully selected verses stripped from their context in a game of “scripture pong”.

If ALL of scripture must be examined, explain the role of the Genesis account of the digging of Jacob’s Well in God’s sovereign election (or lack of election).

Ok, give me the context, of Cain?

I will give you the context of Romans 9, Paul has been talking about faith in God's promise, and how it, not perfect works saves. Yet having stated, very clearly that those Rom 2:6 who "WILL RENDER TO EACH ONE ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS": Paul goes to two great lengths, expressing faith, the "new (or should I say renewed) promise of God" saves, and we should be careful to maintain good works, because we will indeed be judged by our works.

Romans 9, then says:

Rom 9:7-8 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, "IN ISAAC YOUR SEED SHALL BE CALLED." That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.

The illustration of Isacc, is not telling us that some a sovereignly chosen for salvation with no action on the part of the person, and some are damned by God's selection, having been given no chance. But rather, Isaac was used as a picture to represent how "it is God's choice how he saves". He saves "now", by faith, not by works of the law. God's promise to Issac was a good picture of this because his promise came with no effort of his own. But it is not saying there is "no choice in who is saved", we have to bend the rest of the scripture to get that picture.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

But Calvinists don't teach that. They teach the Scripture: "God so loved the world that He gave His only Son that whosoever believes in Him will not perish but have everlasting life." And, "Even while we were yet sinners, Christ loved us and gave Himself for us." So, how does that fit with Calvinists not loving all people?

There seems to be a lot of loony tunes accusations leveled at Calvinists.

Really? is that true, God "predestines", some to salvation, some to damnation. They are given no choice. Love, as we know is spurred by action. Calvinistic thinking is not love.

 

[atpollard]

As a Calvinist you would say Cain never had a chance, that he was "Predestined for Destruction". But that is not what God said, and we know God is no lier. God said to Cain:

Gen 4:6-7 So the LORD said to Cain, "Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen? If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it."
Now I ask you, according to God:

• Did Cain have a chance, if he did well?
• Did God lie to Cain?

Let’s answer the questions first, and then correct your misunderstanding about ‘what I would say’ as a ‘Calvinist’.

Easiest first: Did God lie to Cain?

• Come on now. We are all supposed to be Christians. Have you EVER met a Christian that says “Yes, God lies all of the time in scripture”?
  
• Of course God did not lie to Cain. God cannot lie. (As an side, the very act of God SAYING SOMETHING makes it so … remember Genesis 1.)

Did Cain have a chance, if he did well?

• Yes.
• Would YOU go to heaven on your own merit if you lived a sinless life?
• Do you live a sinless life?
• Did Cain “do well”?
  
• God told us to “Be ye holy as I am holy.” Is that something that we can do? Can we be holy like God?

Now let us deal with this:
As a Calvinist you would say Cain never had a chance, that he was "Predestined for Destruction".

That is a half-truth statement. I believe in “Total Inability” (sometimes called “Total Depravity”). [Brief aside, both Calvinists and Arminians believe in Total Depravity / Inability. Only HERETICS believe that people can save themselves through their own efforts without God drawing people to Christ.]

First a definition of the term. Total Inability or Total Depravity is the belief that as a result of Adam’s fall, all people are born with a “fallen” nature. Every part of each human being is slightly bent (like a crooked arrow) and therefore has a natural tendency to “miss the mark” (the root word for SIN comes from “missing the mark”). Our BODIES do not naturally desire the things of God, they are easily tempted with the flesh (lust or gluttony). Our MINDS do not naturally think the way God thinks, that is why scripture says it is “foolishness” to the natural man. Our SOUL does not naturally have fellowship with God, that is why we are such idol factories and cling to control. Every part of mankind is naturally drawn to flee from God rather than run to God (note the natural reaction of Adam and Eve immediately after the fall was to hide … see John 3:19-20).

So I would say that Cain is no different than everyone else. Of course he COULD have done what was right (God’s rules have never been physically impossible), however he CHOSE to do wrong (like Adam and just like all of us). We freely choose wrong 100% of the time.

Thus ALL are predestined for damnation. Reread the first few verses of Ephesians 2. The reason that ALL are not damned is John 6:44 and Ephesians 2:4-10. GOD is the one that intervenes and does something about it. That is the point of Romans 9.

That is what a Particular Baptist (I read Paul, not Calvin) would say about Cain.

 

[atpollard]

Really? is that true, God "predestines", some to salvation, some to damnation. They are given no choice. Love, as we know is spurred by action. Calvinistic thinking is not love.

I can quote from either the Southern Baptist Confession of Faith, or the Westminster Confession of Faith or the London Confession or the Heidelberg Catechism … all “Reformed” sources (Calvinist) that refute your understanding of “Calvinist thinking”.

You have misunderstood what they, I and we believe.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Really? is that true, God "predestines", some to salvation, some to damnation. They are given no choice. Love, as we know is spurred by action. Calvinistic thinking is not love.

That's not the way it is. All mankind is under condemnation and on the road to hell because of Adam's sin. God doesn't have to predestine anyone to hell. All He has to do is to sit back and do nothing, and He would be totally righteous and just if He did. But He didn't. He put a plan of salvation in place which included an open invitation to trust in Christ's finished work on the Cross, repent of sin, thereby receiving salvation by God's grace and mercy. The invitation is to all, and those who accept it are saved. Those who reject it are lost. That is both Calvinist and Arminian teaching. I have studied mountains of Calvinist teaching over the years, and what stands out is, "Come and embrace Christ and be saved" all the way through it. Actually, the bulk of Calvinist expository teaching is about Christ and how we can obtain grace, mercy and salvation through Him. Calvinist teaching is that all who come to Christ, He will in no wise cast out. So this puts reasonable doubt that God has some mystery decree in heaven that decides who is going to be saved and who is going to remain lost. The Scripture clearly states that all who come to and embrace Christ are saved. Period.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

I challenge every Calvinist to read this. It was written by Iranaeus - Against Heresies - Book 4 Ch 35-38, one of the earliest Church Fathers, It clearly states tha man has free will, and is damned because of using it for good, or evil.

Chap. XXXVII. — Men Are Possessed of Free Will, and Endowed with the Faculty of Making a Choice. It Is Not True, Therefore, That Some Are by Nature Good, and Others Bad.

1. This expression [of our Lord], “How often would I have gathered thy children together, and thou wouldest not,” (Mat_23:37) set forth the ancient law of human liberty, because God made man a free [agent] from the beginning, possessing his own power, even as he does his own soul, to obey the behests (ad utendum sententia) of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God. For there is no coercion with God, but a good will [towards us] is present with Him continually. And therefore does He give good counsel to all. And in man, as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice (for angels are rational beings), so that those who had yielded obedience might justly possess what is good, given indeed by God, but preserved by themselves. On the other hand, they who have not obeyed shall, with justice, be not found in possession of the good, and shall receive condign punishment: for God did kindly bestow on them what was good; but they themselves did not diligently keep it, nor deem it something precious, but poured contempt upon His super-eminent goodness. Rejecting therefore the good, and as it were spuing it out, they shall all deservedly incur the just judgment of God, which also the Apostle Paul testifies in his Epistle to the Romans, where he says, “But dost thou despise the riches of His goodness, and patience, and long-suffering, being ignorant that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? But according to thy hardness and impenitent heart, thou treasurest to thyself wrath against the day of wrath, and the revelation of the righteous judgment of God.” “But glory and honour,” he says, “to every one that doeth good.” (
Rom_2:4, Rom_2:5, Rom_2:7) God therefore has given that which is good, as the apostle tells us in this Epistle, and they who work it shall receive glory and honour, because they have done that which is good when they had it in their power not to do it; but those who do it not shall receive the just judgment of God, because they did not work good when they had it in their power so to do.

2. But if some had been made by nature bad, and others good, these latter would not be deserving of praise for being good, for such were they created; nor would the former be reprehensible, for thus they were made [originally]. But since all men are of the same nature, able both to hold fast and to do what is good; and, on the other hand, having also the power to cast it from them and not to do it, — some do justly receive praise even among men who are under the control of good laws (and much more from God), and obtain deserved testimony of their choice of good in general, and of persevering therein; but the others are blamed, and receive a just condemnation, because of their rejection of what is fair and good. And therefore the prophets used to exhort men to what was good, to act justly and to work righteousness, as I have so largely demonstrated, because it is in our power so to do, and because by excessive negligence we might become forgetful, and thus stand in need of that good counsel which the good God has given us to know by means of the prophets.

3. For this reason the Lord also said, “Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good deeds, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.” (Mat_5:16) And, “Take heed to yourselves, lest perchance your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and worldly cares.” (Luk_21:34) And, “Let your loins be girded about, and your lamps burning, and ye like unto men that wait for their Lord, when He returns from the wedding, that when He cometh and knocketh, they may open to Him. Blessed is that servant whom his Lord, when He cometh, shall find so doing.” (Luk_12:35, Luk_12:36) And again, “The servant who knows his Lord’s will, and does it not, shall be beaten with many stripes.” (Luk_12:47) And, “Why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?” (Luk_6:46) And again, “But if the servant say in his heart, The Lord delayeth, and begin to beat his fellow-servants, and to eat, and drink, and to be drunken, his Lord will come in a day on which he does not expect Him, and shall cut him in sunder, and appoint his portion with the hypocrites.” (Luk_12:45, Luk_12:46; Mat_24:48, Mat_24:51) All such passages demonstrate the independent will151 of man, and at the same time the counsel which God conveys to him, by which He exhorts us to submit ourselves to Him, and seeks to turn us away from [the sin of] unbelief against Him, without, however, in any way coercing us.

4. No doubt, if any one is unwilling to follow the Gospel itself, it is in his power [to reject it], but it is not expedient. For it is in man’s power to disobey God, and to forfeit what is good; but [such conduct] brings no small amount of injury and mischief. And on this account Paul says, “All things are lawful to me, but all things are not expedient;” (1Co_6:12) referring both to the liberty of man, in which respect “all things are lawful,” God exercising no compulsion in regard to him; and [by the expression] “not expedient” pointing out that we “should not use our liberty as a cloak of maliciousness,” (1Pe_2:16) for this is not expedient. And again he says, “Speak ye every man truth with his neighbour.” (Eph_4:25) And, “Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor scurrility, which are not convenient, but rather giving of thanks.” (Eph_4:29) And, “For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord; walk honestly as children of the light, not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in anger and jealousy. And such were some of you; but ye have been washed, but ye have been sanctified in the name of our Lord.” (1Co_6:11) If then it were not in our power to do or not to do these things, what reason had the apostle, and much more the Lord Himself, to give us counsel to do some things, and to abstain from others? But because man is possessed of free will from the beginning, and God is possessed of free will, in whose likeness man was created, advice is always given to him to keep fast the good, which thing is done by means of obedience to God.

5. And not merely in works, but also in faith, has God preserved the will of man free and under his own control, saying, “According to thy faith be it unto thee;” (Mat 9:29) thus showing that there is a faith specially belonging to man, since he has an opinion specially his own. And again, “All things are possible to him that believeth;” (Mat 9:23) and, “Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee.” (Mat 8:13) Now all such expressions demonstrate that man is in his own power with respect to faith. And for this reason, “he that believeth in Him has eternal life while he who believeth not the Son hath not eternal life, but the wrath of God shall remain upon him.” (Joh 3:36) In the same manner therefore the Lord, both showing His own goodness, and indicating that man is in his own free will and his own power, said to Jerusalem, “How often have I wished to gather thy children together, as a hen [gathereth] her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Wherefore your house shall be left unto you desolate.” (Mat 23:37, Mat 23:38)

 

[FutureAndAHope]

That's not the way it is. All mankind is under condemnation and on the road to hell because of Adam's sin. God doesn't have to predestine anyone to hell. All He has to do is to sit back and do nothing, and He would be totally righteous and just if He did. But He didn't. He put a plan of salvation in place which included an open invitation to trust in Christ's finished work on the Cross, repent of sin, thereby receiving salvation by God's grace and mercy. The invitation is to all, and those who accept it are saved. Those who reject it are lost. That is both Calvinist and Arminian teaching. I have studied mountains of Calvinist teaching over the years, and what stands out is, "Come and embrace Christ and be saved" all the way through it. Actually, the bulk of Calvinist expository teaching is about Christ and how we can obtain grace, mercy and salvation through Him. Calvinist teaching is that all who come to Christ, He will in no wise cast out. So this puts reasonable doubt that God has some mystery decree in heaven that decides who is going to be saved and who is going to remain lost. The Scripture clearly states that all who come to and embrace Christ are saved. Period.

Well, what in God's name "is" predestination, from your mouth it does not exist?

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

But Calvinists don't teach that. They teach the Scripture: "God so loved the world that He gave His only Son that whosoever believes in Him will not perish but have everlasting life." And, "Even while we were yet sinners, Christ loved us and gave Himself for us." So, how does that fit with Calvinists not loving all people?

There seems to be a lot of loony tunes accusations leveled at Calvinists.

Except John 3:16 only applies to the eject not the world in Calvinism

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Well, what in God's name "is" predestination, from your mouth it does not exist?

Romans 8:29: "For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers".

Predestination has to be linked with God's foreknowledge. God knew from the foundation of the world who were going to come to and embrace Christ, and who were going to reject or ignore the Gospel and remain lost. Predestination without foreknowledge is "predetermination", and there are no Bible verse that state the word "predetermination". It means that God does not predetermine who is going to be saved or lost without knowing beforehand who is going to receive Christ.

But God predetermined that at a time in history, He would send His Son to become a man and to die on the cross for the sins of mankind. If we look back on when we first received Christ, we see that God predetermined events and circumstances where we would be in a place where we would hear the Gospel. Then it was up to us to actually receive Christ. Every person who is lost will be able to look back to where God arranged circumstances and events to enable them to hear the Gospel. The difference is that they hardened their hearts and refused it. They will know it when their eyes are opened at the Judgment, and they will know that they are guilty and the fault was upon no one but them. They won't be able to play the "predestination" card to blame God, because all He has to say is, "You can see clearly where I arranged everything so that you could hear the Gospel of Christ, but it was you who refused it in spite of Me doing everything to make it as easy and simple as possible to receive Christ and be saved from My wrath to come." Those who are lost will not be able to deny it.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

First, read my passage from the Early Church Farther Iranaeus who knew Paul - Against Heresies - Book 4 Ch 35-38 in What is wrong with Calvinism ? . It shows clearly that the early church believed in 100% free will.

As for:

John 6:44 - No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.​

To who did Jesus say God will draw?

John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.​

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Romans 8:29: "For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers".

Predestination has to be linked with God's foreknowledge. God knew from the foundation of the world who were going to come to and embrace Christ, and who were going to reject or ignore the Gospel and remain lost. Predestination without foreknowledge is "predetermination", and there are no Bible verse that state the word "predetermination". It means that God does not predetermine who is going to be saved or lost without knowing beforehand who is going to receive Christ.

But God predetermined that at a time in history, He would send His Son to become a man and to die on the cross for the sins of mankind. If we look back on when we first received Christ, we see that God predetermined events and circumstances where we would be in a place where we would hear the Gospel. Then it was up to us to actually receive Christ. Every person who is lost will be able to look back to where God arranged circumstances and events to enable them to hear the Gospel. The difference is that they hardened their hearts and refused it. They will know it when their eyes are opened at the Judgment, and they will know that they are guilty and the fault was upon no one but them. They won't be able to play the "predestination" card to blame God, because all He has to say is, "You can see clearly where I arranged everything so that you could hear the Gospel of Christ, but it was you who refused it in spite of Me doing everything to make it as easy and simple as possible to receive Christ and be saved from My wrath to come." Those who are lost will not be able to deny it.

Ok, but I tend to find that people, fall into the "predetermination" camp more readily. And it makes God look like a monster. But I would also say, that you should consider that "foreknowledge" is not what you think it to be either. For note, God did not know everything that would occur before hand.

Gen 6:6-7 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Except John 3:16 only applies to the eject not the world in Calvinism

You mean the "elect" of course.
Not so. As you can see in my previous post, I made a distinction between predestination linked with God's foreknowledge, and predetermination.

There is a theology, possibly within the Arminian side of things, that God does not know the future but responds to the choices we make. This puts the whole responsibility on us to secure our salvation in Christ. This is very similar to the Pelagian heresy which states that salvation involves man calling the shots about whether he is to be saved or not.

Under this theology, it is believed that God has indeed predestined some to be saved and others to be lost, because He has no foreknowledge. Therefore predestination under the "God doesn't know the future" theology (taught by Gordon Olson) has basically the same function as "predetermination".

But Calvinists believe that God does know the future, and so knows who is going to believe the Gospel and receive Christ even before the foundation of the world, and so writes the names of those who are going to be saved into the Book of Life. He certainly does not interfere with His plan of salvation by saying to someone seeking Him for salvation, "You cannot come in, because you are not elected." This would totally contradict the promise of Jesus: "Whoever comes to me, I will in no wise cast out." What this means is that every single person who comes to Jesus for salvation will be elected, because God, through His foreknowledge, has their names already written in the Book of Life. But He doesn't arrange special circumstances leading to an exclusive invitation to those written in the Book. He arranges special circumstances leading to an invitation to all mankind to receive Christ. So it is not God who determines who is going to be saved or lost; it is the person who chooses to either receive or reject Christ.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

You mean the "elect" of course.
Not so. As you can see in my previous post, I made a distinction between predestination linked with God's foreknowledge, and predetermination.

There is a theology, possibly within the Arminian side of things, that God does not know the future but responds to the choices we make. This puts the whole responsibility on us to secure our salvation in Christ. This is very similar to the Pelagian heresy which states that salvation involves man calling the shots about whether he is to be saved or not.

Under this theology, it is believed that God has indeed predestined some to be saved and others to be lost, because He has no foreknowledge. Therefore predestination under the "God doesn't know the future" theology (taught by Gordon Olson) has basically the same function as "predetermination".

But Calvinists believe that God does know the future, and so knows who is going to believe the Gospel and receive Christ even before the foundation of the world, and so writes the names of those who are going to be saved into the Book of Life. He certainly does not interfere with His plan of salvation by saying to someone seeking Him for salvation, "You cannot come in, because you are not elected." This would totally contradict the promise of Jesus: "Whoever comes to me, I will in no wise cast out." What this means is that every single person who comes to Jesus for salvation will be elected, because God, through His foreknowledge, has their names already written in the Book of Life. But He doesn't arrange special circumstances leading to an exclusive invitation to those written in the Book. He arranges special circumstances leading to an invitation to all mankind to receive Christ. So it is not God who determines who is going to be saved or lost; it is the person who chooses to either receive or reject Christ.

Ok, this whole book of life thing. How can it be said (future tense):

Rev 22:19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

I would imagine the book of life is not static. Most likely all names are in the book to begin with, with a positive plan for us, but blotted out when we "choose" to reject Christ finally and completely.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I would also say, that you should consider that "foreknowledge" is not what you think it to be either. For note, God did not know everything that would occur before hand.

This is a theology taught in the 1970s by Gordon Olson, during the time when Winkie Pratney and others ran "Discipleship Boot Camps". I am not sure whether Mr Pratney subscribed to the theology himself, but he recommended Olson's manual to me when I spoke with him in the 1970s. I purchased the manual and read through it. Olson quoted many Scriptures that made it seem that God did not know the future, and for a number of years I believed the theology. But I couldn't relate Romans 8:29 that spoke of God's foreknowledge that clearly stated that God knew before the foundation of the world who was going to be saved and who was going to reject the Gospel and be lost.

Because Paul wrote the verse under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, and He is the Spirit of truth, then the foreknowledge that Paul spoke about had to be true, and Olson's theology has to be a mistake.

Unfortunately Olsen's theology has had a wide influence among many Christian groups, and this has given rise to a misunderstanding of how people are predestined either to be saved or lost.

Gordon Olson was an open theist who denied the absolute foreknowledge of God, that He knows every detail of the future. The book he wrote explaining this was "The Foreknowledge of God'. He is pretty persuasive about what he believes and his teaching definitely would support Calvinist predetermination of who is saved and lost.[/QUOTE]