What is wrong with Calvinism ?

[RickReads]

It's fairly simple, do you believe the doctrine of original sin or not? Let me know if it jells for you : )

You will have to refresh me on what the doctrine says. In recent years I primarily just study the Bible
and occasionally Messianic theology.

I believe aging and the flesh nature is inherited not the actual sins of Adam and Eve.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Do you not think responses to the gospel are determined by our state (nature) of being born of Adam?

Are rattlesnake responses to what they encounter determined by their nature of being born of a rattlesnake?

What you are saying is quite true, but you can't use the Parable of the Sower to support it. You need to stick to what Paul taught about the unrighteous nature of man in Romans.

 

[John Mullally]

I would say there is a Temporal Order of Salvation, and a Logical Order of Salvation. In the Temporal Order, all aspects required for Justification happen simultaneously; as in we cannot tell which came first. In the Logical Order, the Bible tells us what the Order of Salvation is from God's perspective. God's perspective is that no one can come to him unless he himself Draws them...

I have a saying; "For every Verse which says we CAN come to God, his prevening Grace must be presumed to have already appeared and made a 'real' difference in our Salvation before we Believe". All Christians believe Grace comes first... @Clare73

God’s grace came first in Christ’s propitiation for all which is received by faith. To say that God desires only a predetermined select few to receive is counter to 1 Timothy 2:4 and 2 Peter 3:9.

 

[Clare73]

That still does not mean that what I posted was not right in context of what Paul said in Acts 16 if so point out where I made a mistake in my reply. You bring up different context, to be true the context must be answered and show where something was stated that was wrong.

1) My post to which you are responding here was a demonstration in response to
your assertion that I stated simply what I believed rather than what Scripture stated.

So the post to you which you are responding here provided you with both what Scripture stated and what I believed, in refutation of your assertion.

2) And previously, in response to your quote following:

I showed you the seed is the word, it is the power of God unto salvation to all who believe it.

I pointed out that the power of the word of God to anyone depends on their believing it. . .
and which belief depends on their rebirth (John 3:3; 1 Corinthians 2:14; Romans 8:7-8).

The word of God has power only to those who are born again, it does not have power to the unregenerate because they do not receive it (1 Corinthians 2:14).

At least, that would be my understanding, nothing in Acts 16 was the same as your points you now are making,

3) Acts 16 was about the jailer's belief of Paul's words convicting the jailer, to which I pointed out that words do not convict because they cannot be received (1 Corinthians 2:14) apart from first being born again.

All three instances here are in relation to rebirth being required before hearing and believing can take place (John 3:3; Romans 8:7-8; 1 Corinthians 2:14)

 

[iwbswiaihl]

I would say there is a Temporal Order of Salvation, and a Logical Order of Salvation. In the Temporal Order, all aspects required for Justification happen simultaneously; as in we cannot tell which came first. In the Logical Order, the Bible tells us what the Order of Salvation is from God's perspective. God's perspective is that no one can come to him unless he himself Draws them...

I have a saying; "For every Verse which says we CAN come to God, his prevening Grace must be presumed to have already appeared and made a 'real' difference in our Salvation before we Believe". All Christians believe Grace comes first... @Clare73

that would be illustrated if any man will hear My word, let him deny himself, take up his cross and follow Me, Luke 9:23. But I would conclude that its the word of God which stirs the hearts of mankind, John 6:63 63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. Hearing and believing the word of God produces the new birth, it is the power of God unto salvation.

 

[iwbswiaihl]

My post to which you are responding here was a demonstration in response to
your assertion that I stated simply what I believed rather than what Scripture stated.

So the post to you which you are responding here provided you with both what Scripture stated and what I believed, in refutation of your assertion.

And previously, in response to your quote following:

I pointed out that the power of the word of God to anyone depends on their believing it. . .
and which belief depends on their rebirth (John 3:3; 1 Corinthians 2:14; Romans 8:7-8).

The word of God has power only to those who are born again, it does not have power to the unregenerate because they do not receive it (1 Corinthians 2:14).

Acts 16 was about the jailer believing Paul's words, to which I pointed out that he was born again first.

 

[iwbswiaihl]

You say:
And previously, in response to your quote following:
I pointed out that the power of the word of God to anyone depends on their believing it. . .
and which belief depends on their rebirth (John 3:3; 1 Corinthians 2:14; Romans 8:7-8).

The word of God has power only to those who are born again, it does not have power to the unregenerate because they do not receive it (1 Corinthians 2:14). It does not make sense that only someone who has already been born again is the only ones that hear the word of God, and to have the word of say that you must be born again, why would a lost person already be saved to hear these words? Matt11 28 Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.” If they are already saved, what yoke are they taking up and what rest do they find for their souls, is it not salvation? In the Acts 16:31 context, the jailer was asking Paul what must I do to be saved, does that sound like he had already been saved, NO, and Paul would have surely known he was already saved were that the case, BUT HE SAID TO HIM, believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and YOU WILL BE SAVED. It cannot be any clearer than this, he wanted to be saved and was, by believing on the Lord Jesus Christ. What say you to this?

 

[Clare73]

What you are saying is quite true, but you can't use the Parable of the Sower to support it. You need to stick to what Paul taught about the unrighteous nature of man in Romans.

The Parable of the Sower is not the basis for the principle, it is simply an illustration of it.

 

[misput]

You will have to refresh me on what the doctrine says. In recent years I primarily just study the Bible
and occasionally Messianic theology.

I believe aging and the flesh nature is inherited not the actual sins of Adam and Eve.

I agree. Do you believe Adams sin is imputed to us?

Anybody else have an opinion?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Fair enough...

I say this on my other Discussion Forum, but I'm not sure if it's applicable here; "These are the Theology Boards; not the Exegesis Alone Boards", or something similar. My point is that Systematic Theology tells us the Farmer is God. Is the Farmer God? If you agree the Farmer is God, you do so despite Exegesis. Would you say there's something you believe to be Biblical that's not a Verbatim Verse of Scripture?

I'm not the Christian who will be coerced to stop believing Biblical Theology just because there is no quote-unquote Verse for it. Good Theology is as true as the Bible is. God is the Farmer, right?

You are correct that God is the Farmer. But there is a difference between when the farmer breaks up the fallow ground and makes it ready for the seed, and when he sows the seed. You are correct when you say that the good ground is the soil that has been properly prepared, but the Parable of the Sower implies that the good soil has already been prepared. The other three unsuccessful places are where the soil has not been properly prepared for the seed.

Exegesis of a particular passage of Scripture is to give the proper sense of that passage. What you are talking about is hermeneutics, which uses the basic exegesis of the passage to determine its meaning for us. Therefore, my comment about the good ground being properly prepared by the farmer is hermeneutics not exegesis, because I have expanded the basic exegetical study of the passage to explain how the good ground is good and will be a good environment for the seed to germinate, grow and bear fruit.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Maybe it's because both of them treat of the same human nature being demonstrated; i.e., its inability to lay hold of (apprehend) the things of God without the rebirth.

I think you may be comparing apples with oranges. All the different places in the Parable describe the state of unregenerate man. It is just the good ground that has been suitably prepared by the Holy Spirit. The hard path is where the Gospel has been immediately rejected, so the Holy Spirit hasn't had a chance to do anything. The shallow ground is where the Holy Spirit hasn't had a chance to do a deep work of repentance in the person, and the ground where weeds have grown up and choked the word is where the person has not allowed the Holy Spirit to do the continual work of sanctification and perseverance in the person.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I agree. Do you believe Adams sin is imputed to us?

Anybody else have an opinion?

It is imputed to us. This is why when a person is born again of the Spirit of God, the righteousness of Christ is imputed to us.

 

[RickReads]

I agree. Do you believe Adams sin is imputed to us?

Anybody else have an opinion?

Since this seems to have some importance to you I just reviewed the scriptures and find nothing to indicate Adams's sins are imputed to us. So no there's is no truth to it.

If we are under the Law, the law can impute sin and faith will impute righteousness. But no one is responsible for the sins of someone else and that includes Adams's sins.

the Bible says sin and death entered because of Adam. That refers to aging and the flesh nature.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

The Parable of the Sower is not the basis for the principle, it is simply an illustration of it.

The Parable is about sowing the seed of the Gospel, not about the unrighteousness of man.

 

[RickReads]

It is imputed to us. This is why when a person is born again of the Spirit of God, the righteousness of Christ is imputed to us.

I disagree. Post your verse.

 

[Clare73]

You say: And previously, in response to your quote following:
I pointed out that the power of the word of God to anyone depends on their believing it. . .
and which belief depends on their rebirth (John 3:3; 1 Corinthians 2:14; Romans 8:7-8).
The word of God has power only to those who are born again, it does not have power to the unregenerate because they do not receive it (1 Corinthians 2:14). It does not make sense that only someone who has already been born again is the only ones that hear the word of God,

Jesus teaching is for those who have ears to hear. (Mark 4:23; Luke 14:35)

Only those who belong to God can hear. (John 8:47; Acts 13:48)

and to have the word of say that you must be born again, why would a lost person already be saved to hear these words? Matt11 28 Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.” If they are already saved,

Rebirth is not salvation, faith is salvation.
The Holy Spirit raises the human spirit from spiritual death to spiritual life in the rebirth.
Then everything begins. . .faith, salvation, justification, adoption.

what yoke are they taking up and what rest do they find for their souls, is it not salvation?

The yoke is the grace of salvation (remission of sin) in Jesus Christ by faith rather than by works.

In the Acts 16:31 context, the jailer was asking Paul what must I do to be saved,
does that sound like he had already been saved,

Rebirth itself is not salvation, faith is salvation. There is no saving faith apart from rebirth.

, and Paul would have surely known he was already saved were that the case, BUT

HE SAID TO HIM, believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and YOU WILL BE SAVED.

Yes, rebirth. . .then faith. . .then salvation (remission of sin). . .then justification. . .then adoption
(making you a legal co-heir in Christ's inheritance). . .and all can be in the twinkling of an eye.

It cannot be any clearer than this,

he wanted to be saved and was, by believing on the Lord Jesus Christ. What say you to this?

I say you are 100% correct. . .he was saved by his faith, as is every believer. . .which faith is a gift (Philippians 1:29; 2 Peter 1:1; Acts 13:48, Acts 18:27; Romans 12:3).

 

[ReverendRV]

You are correct that God is the Farmer. But there is a difference between when the farmer breaks up the fallow ground and makes it ready for the seed, and when he sows the seed. You are correct when you say that the good ground is the soil that has been properly prepared, but the Parable of the Sower implies that the good soil has already been prepared. The other three unsuccessful places are where the soil has not been properly prepared for the seed.

Exegesis of a particular passage of Scripture is to give the proper sense of that passage. What you are talking about is hermeneutics, which uses the basic exegesis of the passage to determine its meaning for us. Therefore, my comment about the good ground being properly prepared by the farmer is hermeneutics not exegesis, because I have expanded the basic exegetical study of the passage to explain how the good ground is good and will be a good environment for the seed to germinate, grow and bear fruit.

Thanks buddy...

I agree we should love to Exegete. But the reason I had to say what I did, is because too many on-line Theologians make too big a deal of Exegesis; to the point of shipwrecking Theology...

 

[RickReads]

Thanks buddy

He didnt help ya RV

 

[Clare73]

The Parable is about sowing the seed of the Gospel, not about the unrighteousness of man.

The point of the parable is the soil, which is the disposition of man, which is dead in trespasses and sin (Ephesians 2:1) until the new birth.

 

[Clare73]

It is imputed to us. This is why when a person is born again of the Spirit of God,
the righteousness of Christ is imputed to us.

I disagree. Post your verse.

Oscarr is correct:

Romans 1:17, Romans 3:21-24; Genesis 15:6/Romans 4:2-3, Romans 5:18-19.