What is wrong with Calvinism ?

[RickReads]

What about:
Ps 51:1 <<For the choir director. A Psalm of David, when Nathan the prophet came to him, after he had gone in to Bathsheba.>> Be gracious to me, O God, according to Your lovingkindness; According to the greatness of Your compassion blot out my transgressions.
2 Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity And cleanse me from my sin.
3 For I know my transgressions, And my sin is ever before me.
4 Against You, You only, I have sinned And done what is evil in Your sight, So that You are justified when You speak And blameless when You judge.
5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.

It's all talking about David's sins or his mother's. Born in iniquity is closer but still a reference to sin nature or his mother's or both.

 

[misput]

Romans 5:12-21 makes it fairly clear:
"Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—

18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men,

Verse 12 explains/interpretates verse verse 18.
Death spread to all men because all men sin, just as Adam did, not because God imputes Adams sin to them.

 

[misput]

It's all talking about David's sins or his mother's. Born in iniquity is closer but still a reference to sin nature or his mother's or both.

I agree, the only way David could have been conceived in sin is if his mother was a harlot. Marriage and children are a blessing from God.

 

[RickReads]

Verse 12 explains/interpretates verse verse 18.
Death spread to all men because all men sin, just as Adam did, not because God imputes Adams sin to them.

If we believe that God transfers Adams's sins then we must agree that the ignorant natives will auto burn in the lake of fire and that at the white throne Jesus will order the millions of aborted babies thrown in the lake of fire all due to Adams behavior.

I would be afraid to believe such a thing of our Lord. Especially considering the lack of scripture.

 

[RickReads]

I agree, the only way David could have been conceived in sin is if his mother was a harlot. Marriage and children are a blessing from God.

I dunno what the bible reveals about David's mother. I wanna find out.

 

[Der Alte]

If we believe that God transfers Adams's sins then we must agree that the ignorant natives will auto burn in the lake of fire and that at the white throne Jesus will order the millions of aborted babies thrown in the lake of fire all due to Adams behavior. ***

Or you could actually read your Bible and see what God really says about that?

Romans 4:15
(15) Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
Romans 5:13
(13) (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.​

This would cover children infants, the mentally challenged, people who live in some isolated jungle or desert etc.

Romans 2:14-15
(14) For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
(15) Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another​

I strongly recommend Bible reading.

 

[enoob57]

But I am speaking of the modern hermeneutics used today, originating in the 19th and 20th centuries,
developed for human literature, which the divine literature of the word of God got along very well without for 19-20 centuries, and which has limited applicability to the meaning of the Biblical text.

I think your not taking into account of church history here and how it kept the masses from the written text for many centuries...

Written material has it's own requirements... everything with design comes with it's set of design parameters and written material is no different! God knew exactly what written material would produce and the parameters in which it would be properly understood... really a great deal of common sense in dealing with the 'IS' of written material...

When writing was brought about God decided to use it and that would be all that entails it to be understanding of what is being said- It was written to fallen man to be led back to God by the truth of His Word and in that truth be set free from the lies he was in and turn back to God in repentance and need to call out to God to save him...

The "responsibility placed upon man" is not executed by modern hermeneutics, but by the whole counsel of God interpreting itself in its own light.

The mechanics of modern hermeneutics developed for human literature has no divine light to bring to the word of God written, which has its own hermeneutic-- the whole divine counsel of God.

Again your trying to throw back onto God what God has placed upon man...

2 Timothy 2:15 (KJV)
[15] Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.[16] But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

Isaiah 28:10 (KJV)
[10] For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

 

[RickReads]

Or you could actually read your Bible and see what God really says about that?

Romans 4:15
(15) Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
Romans 5:13
(13) (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.​

This would cover children infants, the mentally challenged, people who live in some isolated jungle or desert etc.

Romans 2:14-15
(14) For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
(15) Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another​

I strongly recommend Bible reading.

Or better yet, read my post carefully enough to get a clue about what I`m saying and why next time. Then you can invade a conversation you haven't paid attention to without looking so foolish. I`ve posted every one of those verses on this thread during the course of this discussion.

 

[misput]

Or you could actually read your Bible and see what God really says about that?

Romans 4:15
(15) Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
Romans 5:13
(13) (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.​

This would cover children infants, the mentally challenged, people who live in some isolated jungle or desert etc.

Romans 2:14-15
(14) For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
(15) Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another​

I strongly recommend Bible reading.

Don't leave off the most interesting verse:
Ro 2:16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.
The way I understand this is these who do not have the law (or the gospel) will be judged by the gospel of Christ. How does that work?

 

[misput]

I dunno what the bible reveals about David's mother. I wanna find out.

Could David have been using hyperbole? Or when the prophet came to chose one of Jesse's sons to be king, David was not even brought forth. Was he not considered a true son by his own family?

 

[RickReads]

Could David have been using hyperbole? Or when the prophet came to chose one of Jesse's sons to be king, David was not even brought forth. Was he not considered a true son by his own family?

I'll have to review the text. I don't remember, it's been a few years since I read that section of the Bble.

 

[misput]

I'll have to review the text. I don't remember, it's been a few years since I read that section of the Bble.

David’s Mother Supposedly Committed Adultery Author Jeremy Meyers
The traditional Jewish answer to why David’s family rejected him is that they all thought that David’s mother had committed adultery and borne him out of wedlock. They thought he was a bastard (in fact, the word “stranger” in Psalm 69:8 has the same Hebrew root as muzar, meaning “bastard”). The traditional Jewish story is stated briefly below.
I found this article online, it is just a small excerpt of a commentary about Jewish tradition.

 

[misput]

He doesn't care about this discussion. He's just ticked over my comments on Baptist church services so he wants to play the sniper.

The book of Revelation indicates that the White throne will be a works-based judgment. Measure you give is the measure you receive, Reap what you sow, reward for your deeds good or bad.

Man, that was really rude. LOL! I feel like I have been persecuted.

I just used his post to try to bring out something I think is sort of mystifying and critical to understand.

 

[roman2819]

Revelation 3:20. Jesus said, " I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me”

Did it say "God cause you to open the door" ? Or "If God choose you, you would open the door?"

If God had chose which individuals to believe in Him, then surely Jesus or the apostles in their writing would have said so clearly. Jesus and apostles say "You must repent". NOT God choose you to repent. There is no context in any verses that support Calvinism.

After God called Paul (Acts 8) .... the Lord said to Ananias, “Go! This man is my chosen instrument to proclaim my name to the Gentiles and their kings and to the people of Israel. 16 I will show him how much he must suffer for my name.” (Acts 8:16).

God chose Paul. But could Paul have rejected the calling? He certainly could but he decided to believe. As he suffered while preaching the gospel, could the apostle have given up? He could but he chose to continue. No doubt the Holy Spirit helped him to keep faith and persevere, but Paul has to decode. Don't just read a word "chose" blankly in black and white manner - think further, reality is not binary.

Today God called all to repent, but many reject. I live in Asia Singapore, there are many religions and unbelievers, many have heard the gospel but they do not believe.

Didn't God chose Israel but they always indulge in idolatry during the reign of kings? Didn't Jesus called the Jews to turn to God but most of them rejected? Why didn't God cause most of them to believe? It would be meaningless if God supercede people's free will and chose who to save individually.

 

[RickReads]

David’s Mother Supposedly Committed Adultery Author Jeremy Meyers
The traditional Jewish answer to why David’s family rejected him is that they all thought that David’s mother had committed adultery and borne him out of wedlock. They thought he was a bastard (in fact, the word “stranger” in Psalm 69:8 has the same Hebrew root as muzar, meaning “bastard”). The traditional Jewish story is stated briefly below.
I found this article online, it is just a small excerpt of a commentary about Jewish tradition.

That would make sense out of your verse. Seems to be confirmation. Interesting detail thx for sharing it with me, for real.

 

[misput]

That would make sense out of your verse. Seems to be confirmation. Interesting detail thx for sharing it with me, for real.

Your welcome.

Very intresting:
Ps 69:1 <<To the chief Musician upon Shoshannim, A Psalm of David.>> Save me, O God; for the waters are come in unto my soul.
2 I sink in deep mire, where there is no standing: I am come into deep waters, where the floods overflow me. {deep mire: Heb. the mire of depth} {deep waters: Heb. depth of waters}
3 I am weary of my crying: my throat is dried: mine eyes fail while I wait for my God.
4 They that hate me without a cause are more than the hairs of mine head: they that would destroy me, being mine enemies wrongfully, are mighty: then I restored that which I took not away.
5 O God, thou knowest my foolishness; and my sins are not hid from thee. {sins: Heb. guiltiness}
6 Let not them that wait on thee, O Lord GOD of hosts, be ashamed for my sake: let not those that seek thee be confounded for my sake, O God of Israel.
7 Because for thy sake I have borne reproach; shame hath covered my face.
8 I am become a stranger/basterd? unto my brethren, and an alien unto my mother's children.
9 For the zeal of thine house hath eaten me up; and the reproaches of them that reproached thee are fallen upon me.
10 When I wept, and chastened my soul with fasting, that was to my reproach.
11 I made sackcloth also my garment; and I became a proverb to them.
12 They that sit in the gate speak against me; and I was the song of the drunkards. {drunkards: Heb. drinkers of strong drink}
(KJV)

 

[RickReads]

My wife and I attended a Baptist church for many years. I taught adult Sunday school for about 10 years and very active in visitation and outreach, led a home bibles study for about 3 yrs but we had a very gifted preacher which really helped to keep my interest. I have been to some churches that bored me and some that I was embarrassed for. I guess it depends a lot on what type person we are and like snowflakes we are all different, heavy on the flakes : )

I had Baptist elders in my family that I was close to. I went to church with them often even as an adult.
I skipped churches that I liked so that I could sit next to them in church and honor them.

Rough. LOL But worth it. They are all gone now and I`m thankful for the time I had with them.

 

[ReverendRV]

Verse 12 explains/interpretates verse verse 18.
Death spread to all men because all men sin, just as Adam did, not because God imputes Adams sin to them.

I would say that the Unconditional Consequences of the Original Sin are not Imputed by God to Adam's Progeny, but they are 'Imparted' through Procreation to All who are in Adam; just as arms and legs are Imparted to us. I would say that God doesn't 'Create' Sinners but Adam 'Procreated' Sinners. Also, I would say that a quick discussion about the difference between the words Imputation and Impartation would be a good idea. If Imputation is the wrong word, isn't everyone arguing for or against a Strawman?

 

[misput]

I would say it is obvious, God created Adam with a fleshly nature and a Spiritual nature. These two natures war against one another. The rest is history. No need to beat around on a strawman : )

 

[Clare73]

You say this: Only those who belong to God can hear. (John 8:47; Acts 13:48)
Rebirth is not salvation, faith is salvation. Is your statement the same as without faith it is impossible to please God, Heb 11:6?
You go and say faith is salvation: where in the bible does it say that?

Rebirth is not salvation, faith is not salvation, remission of sin is salvation, which remission/salvation is by faith, which faith is by the rebirth.

Remission of sin (by faith, which requires rebirth) removes you from God's wrath (Romans 5:9) and condemnation (Romans 5:18) on your sin, which is the meaning of salvation from the wrath of God (Romans 5:9).
Sorry that is not more clear to you.

Most would say, if you believe the word of God and confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus you will be saved, is this not scriptural seeing as how it is the exact words in Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been

saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. This says you are saved by faith, it does not say "faith is salvation" but by grace(unmerited favor) are you saved through faith, which would surely mean you must have faith that Jesus is the Savior of the world and paid your sin debt and as John said, you must be born again. It cannot be any clearer than that. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God, Romans 10:17, which I have shown you before, it too is very clear, the word says; you must believe what the word says, then you are saved, faith that does not have works is dead faith. When the jailer ask Paul what must I do to be saved, why didn't Paul tell him rebirth is not salvation, faith is salvation? No, Paul told him believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. If this is not clear enough, I pass, will have to let others speak on this topic. Thanks for listening.

I think we may be in agreement here.
Faith comes by hearing, for you have to have something to believe in before you can believe it.
But there is no hearing if one is not born again (John 3:3).
Because without the Holy Spirit, man does not hear, does not receive and does not believe (John 8:47;
1 Corinthians 2:14; Romans 8:7-8.

We have went through this before so one more time, this text in Acts 16:25 But at midnight Paul and Silas were praying and singing hymns to God, and the prisoners were listening to them. 26Suddenly there was a great earthquake, so that the foundations of the prison were shaken; and immediately all the doors were opened and everyone’s chains were loosed. 27And the keeper of the prison, awaking from sleep and seeing the prison doors open, supposing the prisoners had fled, drew his sword and was about to kill himself. 28But Paul called with a loud voice, saying, “Do yourself no harm, for we are all here.” Then he called for a light, ran in, and fell down trembling before Paul and Silas. 30And he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.” 32Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. 33And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their stripes. And immediately he and all his family were baptized. 34Now when he had brought them into his house, he set food before them; and he rejoiced, having believed in God with all his household.

I see no inconsistency of this text with what I have presented above.

 

[Clare73]

Better to quote these references in full rather than making me look them up. I'm feeling lazy at the moment.

And the Forum accommodates us in that manner, just click on the references, they are links to those Scriptures.