What is wrong with Calvinism ?

[ReverendRV]

The point of the parable is the soil, which is the disposition of man, which is dead in trespasses and sin until the new birth.

I think we all agree. Sometimes a little arm twisting needs to happen first but we all agree...

 

[RickReads]

Oscarr is correct:

Romans 1:17, Romans 3:21-24; Genesis 15:6/Romans 4:2-3, Romans 5:18-19.

I was asking Oscarr to post. His opinion differs from yours.

 

[Clare73]

I agree. Do you believe Adams sin is imputed to us?

Anybody else have an opinion?

Adam's guilt is imputed to us (Romans 5:18).

 

[Clare73]

I was asking Oscarr to post. His opinion differs from yours.

I suspect he will if he disagrees. . .and even if he doesn't disagree.

 

[RickReads]

I suspect he will if he disagrees. . .and even if he doesn't disagree.

You may be confused about what I`m asking him. I dunno why I looked but your verses seem to be about faith imputing righteousness.

 

[Clare73]

I think you may be comparing apples with oranges. All the different places in the Parable describe the state of unregenerate man.

Agreed. . .except for the good soil, which is regenerate man.

It is just the good ground that has been suitably prepared by the Holy Spirit. The hard path is where the Gospel has been immediately rejected, so the Holy Spirit hasn't had a chance to do anything. The shallow ground is where the Holy Spirit hasn't had a chance to do a deep work of repentance in the person, and the ground where weeds have grown up and choked the word is where the person has not allowed the Holy Spirit to do the continual work of sanctification and perseverance in the person.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I disagree. Post your verse.

"Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works" (Romans 4:6).

When Adam disobeyed God's command and ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, God declared him sinful, and the aging and propensity to sin were the result. When a person is converted to Christ, God cancels out the former imputation, and replaces it with a new crediting of the righteousness of Christ.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

T

The point of the parable is the soil, which is the disposition of man, which is dead in trespasses and sin (Ephesians 2:1) until the new birth.

That's not what Jesus actually said in His explanation of the Parable to the disciples. You can't make Jesus say what you want Him to say.

You are correctly quoting Ephesians 2:1, but that is not what Jesus is saying in the Parable.

 

[RickReads]

"Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works" (Romans 4:6).

When Adam disobeyed God's command and ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, God declared him sinful, and the aging and propensity to sin were the result. When a person is converted to Christ, God cancels out the former imputation, and replaces it with a new crediting of the righteousness of Christ.

Oscarr I`m talking about Adams sin imputed which in the remark I am responding to you appear to say it is imputed.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Agreed. . .except for the good soil, which is regenerate man.

Not so. The good soil is that which has been prepared by prayer and seeking God in His Word, so that when the seed of the Gospel is sown, the person can receive it, and through believing the Gospel and receiving Christ as Saviour, the person is then regenerated by the Holy Spirit.

The person is not regenerate before being born again of the Spirit. A person is unregenerate before believing the Gospel and being converted to Christ. Saying that someone is regenerate before the seed of the Gospel is sown is putting the cart before the horse.

 

[Clare73]

That's not what Jesus actually said in His explanation of the Parable to the disciples.

Are you sure about that?

Jesus explains why he speaks in parables in Matthew 13:10-16,
he does not explain the meaning of the parable.

Jesus explains the meaning of the parable in terms of the soils in Mark 4:13-20; Luke 8:11-15.

You can't make Jesus say what you want Him to say.

Areed. . .we don't need to do that. . .Jesus already has.

You are correctly quoting
Ephesians 2:1, but that is not what Jesus is saying in the Parable.

Jesus' own explanation of the soils are in terms of the people you hear the word of God, it's about the dispositions of men, only the good soil being that of the born again.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Oscarr I`m talking about Adams sin imputed which in the remark I am responding to you appear to say it is imputed.

Romans 5:12-21 makes it fairly clear:
"Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.

But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man’s trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. And the free gift is not like the result of that one man’s sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. For if, because of one man’s trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.

18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for fall men. For as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous. Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

Paul is saying that through Adam's disobedience, the many were made sinners. What this means is that God invoiced every descendant of Adam with the debt of sin. God made them sinners until the debt was paid. This is why Jesus, just before He died on the Cross, said, "It is finished", the Aramaic meaning, "The debt is paid". Jesus paid the debt of sin owing by every person, but the condition of it being made active was that the person needed to put their trust in Christ, repent of their sin, and allow the Holy Spirit to convert them to Christ. As a result, the righteousness of Christ is credited to the person. The file is stamped, "Paid in full."

Paul says that even if people sin in ways different to how Adam sinned, they are still counted as sinners by God's decree. So, the only way that the decree can be cancelled is through repentance of sin and faith in Christ. The word "imputed" may not have been used, but the meaning is still there in the Romans passage.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Are you sure about that?

Jesus explains why he speaks in parables in Matthew 13:10-16,
he does not explain the meaning of the parable.

Jesus explains the meaning of the parable in terms of the soils in Mark 4:13-20; Luke 8:11-15.

Areed. . .we don't need to do that. . .Jesus already has.

The soils are about the dispositions of men, only the good soil being that of the born again.

The Parable is not primarily about the soils. It is about what happens to the seed when it falls on different types of soil. I am resisting merging Calvinist theology with the Parable.

 

[Clare73]

Not so. The good soil is that which has been prepared by prayer and seeking God in His Word, so that when the seed of the Gospel is sown, the person can receive it, and through believing the Gospel and receiving Christ as Saviour, the person is then regenerated by the Holy Spirit.

The person is not regenerate before being born again of the Spirit. A person is unregenerate before believing the Gospel and being converted to Christ. Saying that someone is regenerate before the seed of the Gospel is sown is putting the cart before the horse.

Not according to John 3:3, John 8:47; 1 Corinthians 2:14; Romans 8:7-8.

 

[RickReads]

Romans 5:12-21 makes it fairly clear:
"Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.

But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man’s trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. And the free gift is not like the result of that one man’s sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. For if, because of one man’s trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.

18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for fall men. For as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous. Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

Paul is saying that through Adam's disobedience, the many were made sinners. What this means is that God invoiced every descendant of Adam with the debt of sin. God made them sinners until the debt was paid. This is why Jesus, just before He died on the Cross, said, "It is finished", the Aramaic meaning, "The debt is paid". Jesus paid the debt of sin owing by every person, but the condition of it being made active was that the person needed to put their trust in Christ, repent of their sin, and allow the Holy Spirit to convert them to Christ. As a result, the righteousness of Christ is credited to the person. The file is stamped, "Paid in full."

Paul says that even if people sin in ways different to how Adam sinned, they are still counted as sinners by God's decree. So, the only way that the decree can be cancelled is through repentance of sin and faith in Christ. The word "imputed" may not have been used, but the meaning is still there in the Romans passage.

Nowhere does the Bible say we are invoiced/imputed with Adams's sin.

From Adam, we receive sinfulness and physical death by aging.

From Jesus, we receive righteousness and life.

We do not receive righteous works nor do we receive sins nor does the Bible say that we do.

 

[Clare73]

The Parable is not primarily about the soils.

You are in disagreement with Jesus in Mark 4:13-20; Luke 8:11-15.

It is about what happens to the seed when it falls on different types of soil.
I am resisting merging Calvinist theology with the Parable.

Good for you, but irrelevant in light of John 3:3, John 8:47; 1 Corinthians 2:14; Romans 8:7-8.

And not good for you when it requires you to disagree with Jesus in Mark 4:13-20; Luke 8:11-15.

How is disagreeing with Jesus better than the "Calvinism" you deny?

 

[iwbswiaihl]

Jesus teaching is for those who have ears to hear. (Mark 4:23; Luke 14:35)

Only those who belong to God can hear. (John 8:47; Acts 13:48)
Rebirth is not salvation, faith is salvation.
The Holy Spirit raises the human spirit from spiritual death to spiritual life in the rebirth.
Then everything begins. . .faith, salvation, justification, adoption.

The yoke is the grace of salvation (remission of sin) in Jesus Christ by faith rather than by works.

Rebirth itself is not salvation, faith is salvation. There is no saving faith apart from rebirth.

Yes, rebirth. . .then faith. . .then salvation (remission of sin). . .then justification. . .then adoption
(making you a legal co-heir in Christ's inheritance). . .and all can be in the twinkling of an eye.

I say you are 100% correct. . .he was saved by his faith, as is every believer. . .which faith is a gift (Philippians 1:29; 2 Peter 1:1; Acts 13:48, Acts 18:27; Romans 12:3).

You say this: Only those who belong to God can hear. (John 8:47; Acts 13:48)
Rebirth is not salvation, faith is salvation. Is your statement the same as without faith it is impossible to please God, Heb 11:6? You go and say faith is salvation: where in the bible does it say that? Most would say, if you believe the word of God and confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus you will be saved, is this not scriptural seeing as how it is the exact words in Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. This says you are saved by faith, it does not say "faith is salvation" but by grace(unmerited favor) are you saved through faith, which would surely mean you must have faith that Jesus is the Savior of the world and paid your sin debt and as John said, you must be born again. It cannot be any clearer than that. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God, Romans 10:17, which I have shown you before, it too is very clear, the word says; you must believe what the word says, then you are saved, faith that does not have works is dead faith. When the jailer ask Paul what must I do to be saved, why didn't Paul tell him rebirth is not salvation, faith is salvation? No, Paul told him believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. If this is not clear enough, I pass, will have to let others speak on this topic. Thanks for listening.

We have went through this before so one more time, this text in Acts 16:25 But at midnight Paul and Silas were praying and singing hymns to God, and the prisoners were listening to them. 26Suddenly there was a great earthquake, so that the foundations of the prison were shaken; and immediately all the doors were opened and everyone’s chains were loosed. 27And the keeper of the prison, awaking from sleep and seeing the prison doors open, supposing the prisoners had fled, drew his sword and was about to kill himself. 28But Paul called with a loud voice, saying, “Do yourself no harm, for we are all here.” Then he called for a light, ran in, and fell down trembling before Paul and Silas. 30And he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.” 32Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. 33And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their stripes. And immediately he and all his family were baptized. 34Now when he had brought them into his house, he set food before them; and he rejoiced, having believed in God with all his household.

 

[misput]

Since this seems to have some importance to you I just reviewed the scriptures and find nothing to indicate Adams's sins are imputed to us. So no there's is no truth to it.

If we are under the Law, the law can impute sin and faith will impute righteousness. But no one is responsible for the sins of someone else and that includes Adams's sins.

the Bible says sin and death entered because of Adam. That refers to aging and the flesh nature.

What about:
Ps 51:1 <<For the choir director. A Psalm of David, when Nathan the prophet came to him, after he had gone in to Bathsheba.>> Be gracious to me, O God, according to Your lovingkindness; According to the greatness of Your compassion blot out my transgressions.
2 Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity And cleanse me from my sin.
3 For I know my transgressions, And my sin is ever before me.
4 Against You, You only, I have sinned And done what is evil in Your sight, So that You are justified when You speak And blameless when You judge.
5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Not according to John 3:3, John 8:47; 1 Corinthians 2:14; Romans 8:7-8.

Better to quote these references in full rather than making me look them up. I'm feeling lazy at the moment.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

You are in disagreement with Jesus in Mark 4:13-20; Luke 8:11-15.

Good for you, but irrelevant in light of John 3:3, John 8:47; 1 Corinthians 2:14; Romans 8:7-8.

And not good for you when it requires you to disagree with Jesus in Mark 4:13-20; Luke 8:11-15.

How is disagreeing with Jesus better than the "Calvinism" you deny?

Same as my last posts. Quote your references in full, otherwise I don't know what you are talking about. I always quote passages in full out of respect for those reading my posts. I want to make things as easy as possible.

I'm off to the gym now, so I won't be responding for a while.