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What is wrong with Calvinism ?

ReverendRV

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Tilled soil is akin to a softened heart, not a regenerated one.
In the scheme of things, what is the difference between a Softened Heart and a Regenerated Heart? The Hard Heart is the Antecedent of both of these descriptions, so isn't it true there is a Native Inability before the Softening or the Regenerating?

You can see I use a method I call 'using Shared beliefs' to make a point. Let's say that a Softened Heart is %50 percent more Able than a Hard Heart which hasn't been Softened by God; and let's say that a Regenerated Heart is %100 more Able than a Hard Heart. Isn't it true that both of these differences, despite their degrees of difference to each other, mean that while the Heart is Hard (like Pharaoh's); people with Hard Hearts are Totally Unable to Believe?
 
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iwbswiaihl

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The only way that anyone is ever saved, by sovereign regeneration of the Holy Spirit:

"You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.'
The wind
(breath, spirit) blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound (see its effects), but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit." (John 3:7-8).

.
The inspired scriptures cannot be more sovereign, the Holy Spirit inspired the writer and knows what is the word of God, being 1 of the 3 of the Godhead. I showed you the seed is the word, it is the power of God unto salvation to all who believe it. John 6:63 from as few different translations:

KJ21
It is the Spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing. The words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
ASV
It is the spirit that giveth life; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I have spoken unto you are spirit, and are life.
AMP
It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh conveys no benefit [it is of no account]. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life [providing eternal life].
AMPC
It is the Spirit Who gives life [He is the Life-giver]; the flesh conveys no benefit whatever [there is no profit in it]. The words (truths) that I have been speaking to you are spirit and life.
BRG
It is the Spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are Spirit, and they are life.
CSB
The Spirit is the one who gives life. The flesh doesn’t help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.
CEB
The Spirit is the one who gives life and the flesh doesn’t help at all. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life.
CJB
It is the Spirit who gives life, the flesh is no help. The words I have spoken to you are Spirit and life,
 
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RickReads

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In the scheme of things, what is the difference between a Softened Heart and a Regenerated Heart? The Hard Heart is the Antecedent of both of these descriptions, so isn't it true there is a Native Inability before the Softening or the Regenerating?

You can see I use a method I call 'using Shared beliefs' to make a point. Let's say that a Softened Heart is %50 percent more Able than a Hard Heart which hasn't been Softened by God; and let's say that a Regenerated Heart is %100 more Able than a Hard Heart. Isn't it true that both of these differences, despite their degrees of difference to each other, mean that while the Heart is Hard (like Pharaoh's); people with Hard Hearts are Totally Unable to Believe?

Regeneration requires the Holy Spirit to enter your body. Softening of the heart is done without. Jesus at the door requiring you to make a decision.

Regeneration is supper with Jesus.
 
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ReverendRV

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Regeneration requires the Holy Spirit to enter your body. Softening of the heart is done without. Jesus at the door requiring you to make a decision.

Regeneration is supper with Jesus.
I'll drop this for now. This doesn't sound right to me...
 
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Clare73

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The inspired scriptures cannot be more sovereign, the Holy Spirit inspired the writer and knows what is the word of God, being 1 of the 3 of the Godhead. I showed you the seed is the word, it is the power of God unto salvation to all who believe it.
The power of God only to those who believe it (it was not the power of God to my brother). . .and believing it is the result of being born again, for one cannot even see (much less believe in) the Kingdom of God without the rebirth by the Holy Spirit (John 3:3-8; 1 Corinthians 2:14;
Romans 8:7-8).
John 6:63 from as few different translations:
KJ21 It is the Spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing. The words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
ASV It is the spirit that giveth life; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I have spoken unto you are spirit, and are life.
AMP It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh conveys no benefit [it is of no account]. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life [providing eternal life].
AMPC It is the Spirit Who gives life [He is the Life-giver]; the flesh conveys no benefit whatever [there is no profit in it]. The words (truths) that I have been speaking to you are spirit and life.
BRG It is the Spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are Spirit, and they are life.
CSB The Spirit is the one who gives life. The flesh doesn’t help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.
CEB The Spirit is the one who gives life and the flesh doesn’t help at all. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life.
CJB It is the Spirit who gives life, the flesh is no help. The words I have spoken to you are Spirit and life,
 
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RickReads

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I'll drop this for now. This doesn't sound right to me...

Ok, maybe you are a Calvinist.

Revelation 3:20
Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

You have to open the door for Jesus before He will feed you.
 
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rturner76

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You used the term convulsion which is used in the Gospels as being associated with demon possession. Quite offensive
Apologies, no offense intended.
 
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roman2819

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I believe in predestination, wherein God chooses whom He will save and destroy the rest on judgment day, as do a small number of others. The rest of you believe in "free will" salvation, otherwise known as Arminianism. People like to call predestination "Calvinism," but that is a misnomer, as John Calvin did not create, discover or originate the doctrine of predestination, he believed it and taught it to others. Predestination is in Scripture. Just as Calvin's name is not found in Scripture, neither is the name of Jacobus Arminius, from which the word "Arminianism" derives. John 1:12 is one of the favorite verses quoted to validate Arminianism. Yet, John 1:13, which is directly related to John 1:12, is rarely, if ever also quoted. Arminianism is completely built upon and depends totally upon the false concept that each individual has the ability, intellect and opportunity to "chose" to believe or not, that each person determines whether or not they "get saved." As I heard a pastor say, "Everybody chooses where they will spend their eternity." This ability to "chose" is directly related to man's "free will." The reason John 1:13 is ignored is that the verse totally destroys the concept that man has the "free will" to choose or reject the gospel and by his "free will" determines if he "gets saved" or rejects the truth.
John 1:13 Which were born(spiritual birth that comes from God, James 1:18), not of blood (being Jewish), nor of the will of the flesh,(that which man desires), NOR OF THE WILL OF MAN, but of God.
In order to teach "free will" salvation requires a pastor to either ignore verses that teach predestination or twist the predestination verses if they quote them. The main "proof text" used to teach that God "wants to save everybody" is, of course, 2Pet 3:9. However, this verse has not been translated properly, in that a couple of crucial words is left out. Peter wrote, "...but is longsuffering to us-ward..." Whenever the word "us" is used in the New Testament, it is only used to refer to the sheep, the believers, the predestinated. It is never used to mean "all people." So Peter wrote that "God is longsuffering to His sheep..." As a result of clarification, the verse should properly read,"... not willing that any of us (sheep) should perish, but that all of the sheep will come to repentance." In church buildings, pew warmers will often hear the phrase, "God wants to...", "God wants to bless you," "God wants to use you," "God wants to do a mighty work in your life,..." Yet, there is no verse that uses the words, "God wants to..." Rather than "God wants to...," Scripture teaches that God does whatever He wants to do, in the case of people, no person can prevent God from acting nor does God have to get permission from a person before God can act on a person, or that "God will never do something against a person's will."
Psalm 115:3, 135:6
Isa 46:10
Dan 4:35

Let's look at some predestination verses using logic rather than a skewed view.
Isa 55:11, a favorite verse in many church buildings.
So shall my word be that goes forth out of my voice: it will not return to me void, but it will accomplish that which I purpose, and it will prosper (succeed) in the situation/circumstance to which I send it.
This verse is easy to understand. By the meaning of the verse, if God sent His word to individuals with the purpose of those individuals "getting saved," then, these individuals would "get saved." God's word would prosper in the goal of which it was sent. So, if God "wants" all people to get saved, why doesn't He simply send His word to all individuals? Why doesn't He tell every individual exactly what each individual needs to hear to "persuade" or "convince" each individual to "Accept Christ?" ("Accept Christ" is not found in Scripture.) Your camp teaches that God pursues people, something not found in Scripture. Your camp teaches that God "woo's people." Again, another tradition of man not found in Scripture.

A person has to have their spiritual eyes and ears open to understand salvation, which is a spiritual thing, 1Cor 2:14 But the natural man (man in the flesh) recieveth not the things of the Spirit (spiritual things) of God: for they (spiritual things) are foolishness unto him, neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerened. A person has to have their spiritual eyes and ears open to understand the spiritual truths in Scripture. A person has to have their spiritual eyes and ears opened in order to believe in Jesus. If so, what do you do with these verses?
Mat 11:25 At that time, Jesus, "I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou has hid these things from the wise and prudent and has revealed them to babes. Hmm, God "wants" everybody to "get saved?" But He hides knowledge and understanding from the wise of the world? If a person needs spiritual knowledge and understanding to obtain salvation, but God hides it from them, how can you say God wants everybody saved if He keeps the crucial and necessary information from them? And Jesus gave thanks for this action of God!

Read this carefully, Mat 11:27 All things are delivered to me from my Father: and no human knows the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any human the Father, except for the Son, and he TO WHOMSOEVER THE SON WILL REVEAL HIM.
Hmm, no person, of their own efforts and intellect, can ever come to know the Father. Jesus has to reveal the Father to people! According to this verse, Jesus chooses to whom He will reveal the Father. This also means that Jesus doesn't reveal the Father to all people.

Mat 13:10-11 And the disciples asked Jesus, "Why do you speak to them in parables?" Jesus replied, "Because it is granted to you to understand the mysteries of the kingdom of Heaven, but it (the ability to understand) is not granted to them." Hmm, the ability to understand the mysteries of the kingdom, spiritual eyes and ears opened, is only given to some and the rest are kept in spiritual darkness. Again, crucial information is given to some and kept unknown to others.

Lk 9: 43-45 "... Jesus said to his disciples, "Let these sayings sink down into your ears: for the Son of man will be delivered into the hands of men." BUT THEY UNDERSTOOD NOT WHAT JESUS WAS SAYING, IT WAS HID FROM THEM...

Lk 19:42...but now they are hid from your (spiritual) eyes.

John 8:47 "He that is of God hears God's word. You do not hear God's word because you are not of God."

John 10:26-27 "But you don't believe me because you are not one of my sheep...My sheep hear my voice, and I know them and they follow me."

John 12: 37-40 "... THEREFORE THEY COULD NOT BELIEVE because Isaiah had said, " He (God) has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts so that they could not see (with spiritual eyes), nor understand with their heart (mind), and be converted, and I should heal them. God prevented them from believing. Why would God actively prevent people from believing if He wants everybody saved? How does salvation come? When a person believes, Acts 16: 28-31. If believing is the first part of salvation and is necessary for salvation, and God prevents people from believing, how does that fit in with "God wants everybody to get saved?"

2Cor 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost.

Eph 3:5 Which in other ages WAS NOT MADE KNOWN UNTO THE SONS OF MEN, AS IT IS NOW REVEALED UNTO HIS HOLY APOSTLES AND PROPHETS BY THE SPIRIT.

2Tim 2:7 Consider what I say; and the Lord GIVE YOU UNDERSTANDING IN ALL THINGS.

1John 4:6 We are of God: He that knoweth God hears us; he that is not of God does not hear us. "Hear" here does not mean simply audibly hearing words. For the sheep, it means to hear with spiritual ears having been opened to the truth. For the goats, it means that their ears are spiritually closed, made deaf.

These verses are in your bible. I can show many more which teach that God opens eyes and ears and God closes eyes and ears. But these verses are never taught or explained. Why? because they all contradict Arminianism. Notice, there is not one mention of God closing off spiritual understanding as a response or reaction to people "rejecting the truth." The "lost" in 2Cor 4:3 are lost because God purposed them to be lost before they were born. They are born lost, they live their lives as lost people and they will die lost. You may disagree, but this is what belief in predestination teaches.

You are interpreting so many verses without considering context

Consider how verses can be taken out of context:

ACTS 16:31 where Peter said to the prison guard: “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.
Does this means that parents can pray for their children, and in turn they will be saved? The answer is No. But those who read words only and ignore the rest of the Scripture will insist it can be done.

John 3:16: For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
It didn't say you have to repent and confess sins to Jesus to be saved. So does it mean that believing is Jesus' existence is sufficient? The answer is No. In the context of the bible, one has to repent and confess sins.

If God had chose which individuals to believe in Him, then surely Jesus or the apostles in their writing would have said so clearly. Instead, Jesus and apostles say "You must repent".

Revelation 3:20. Jesus said, " I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me” Did it say "God cause you to open the door" ?
 
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iwbswiaihl

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The power of God only to those who believe it (it was not the power of God to my brother). . .and believing it is the result of being born again, for one cannot even see (much less believe in) the Kingdom of God without the rebirth by the Holy Spirit (John 3:3-8; 1 Corinthians 2:14;
Romans 8:7-8).
I would like for you to consider your words: The power of God only to those who believe it-----how the power for conversion happen if they did not believe it? Romans 10:17 Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. You said: For one cannot even see (much less believe in) the Kingdom of God without the rebirth by the Holy Spirit.

Then tell me what this passage in context is saying: Acts 16:25 But at midnight Paul and Silas were praying and singing hymns to God, and the prisoners were listening to them. 26 Suddenly there was a great earthquake, so that the foundations of the prison were shaken; and immediately all the doors were opened and everyone’s chains were loosed. 27 And the keeper of the prison, awaking from sleep and seeing the prison doors open, supposing the prisoners had fled, drew his sword and was about to kill himself. 28 But Paul called with a loud voice, saying, “Do yourself no harm, for we are all here.”

29 Then he called for a light, ran in, and fell down trembling before Paul and Silas. 30 And he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” Question: How could the jailer have ask this question to Paul about being saved were he not being drawn to believe in the Lord, unless the word of God was convicting him of his sin and need for a Savior; plus the fact Paul stated nothing of what you said must happen first, but said this:

31 So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.” 32 Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. 33 And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their stripes. And immediately he and all his family were baptized. 34 Now when he had brought them into his house, he set food before them; and he rejoiced, having believed in God with all his household.

Having read this, does it not make you reconsider what you said: "and believing it is the result of being born again, for one cannot even see (much less believe in) the Kingdom of God without the rebirth by the Holy Spirit". Were this true, would Paul have told him what he said in v31 through v34 about how to be saved?
 
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ReverendRV

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I would like for you to consider your words: The power of God only to those who believe it-----how the power for conversion happen if they did not believe it? Romans 10:17 Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. You said: For one cannot even see (much less believe in) the Kingdom of God without the rebirth by the Holy Spirit.

Then tell me what this passage in context is saying: Acts 16:25 But at midnight Paul and Silas were praying and singing hymns to God, and the prisoners were listening to them. 26 Suddenly there was a great earthquake, so that the foundations of the prison were shaken; and immediately all the doors were opened and everyone’s chains were loosed. 27 And the keeper of the prison, awaking from sleep and seeing the prison doors open, supposing the prisoners had fled, drew his sword and was about to kill himself. 28 But Paul called with a loud voice, saying, “Do yourself no harm, for we are all here.”

29 Then he called for a light, ran in, and fell down trembling before Paul and Silas. 30 And he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” Question: How could the jailer have ask this question to Paul about being saved were he not being drawn to believe in the Lord, unless the word of God was convicting him of his sin and need for a Savior; plus the fact Paul stated nothing of what you said must happen first, but said this:

31 So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.” 32 Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. 33 And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their stripes. And immediately he and all his family were baptized. 34 Now when he had brought them into his house, he set food before them; and he rejoiced, having believed in God with all his household.

Having read this, does it not make you reconsider what you said: "and believing it is the result of being born again, for one cannot even see (much less believe in) the Kingdom of God without the rebirth by the Holy Spirit". Were this true, would Paul have told him what he said in v31 through v34 about how to be saved?
I would say there is a Temporal Order of Salvation, and a Logical Order of Salvation. In the Temporal Order, all aspects required for Justification happen simultaneously; as in we cannot tell which came first. In the Logical Order, the Bible tells us what the Order of Salvation is from God's perspective. God's perspective is that no one can come to him unless he himself Draws them...

I have a saying; "For every Verse which says we CAN come to God, his prevening Grace must be presumed to have already appeared and made a 'real' difference in our Salvation before we Believe". All Christians believe Grace comes first... @Clare73
 
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Clare73

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I would like for you to consider your words:
I can do that.
The power of God only to those who believe it-----how the power for conversion happen if they did not believe it?
John 3:8-7 explains how spiritual rebirth happens. . .a completely sovereign act of God.
And until that happens, no one believes the word of God, as my brother did not, because he was not reborn.
Romans 10:17 Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.
Which does not preclude the necessity of rebirth before the faith that comes by hearing can take place.
You said: For one cannot even see (much less believe in) the Kingdom of God without the rebirth by the Holy Spirit.
Actually, Jesus was the one who said that in John 3:3, it was not me.
Then tell me what this passage in context is saying: Acts 16:25 But at midnight Paul and Silas were praying and singing hymns to God, and the prisoners were listening to them. 26 Suddenly there was a great earthquake, so that the foundations of the prison were shaken; and immediately all the doors were opened and everyone’s chains were loosed.
27 And the keeper of the prison, awaking from sleep and seeing the prison doors open, supposing the prisoners had fled, drew his sword and was about to kill himself. 28 But Paul called with a loud voice, saying, “Do yourself no harm, for we are all here.”
29 Then he called for a light, ran in, and fell down trembling before Paul and Silas.
If I had to locate the time of the jailer's rebirth, I would locate it with that earthquake by the power of God, which power at the same time operated in his spirit, "shivering his timbers."
It was a reborn jailer who, according to v.30 would have been listening to Paul and Silas along with the prisoners before he finally fell asleep, and who fell down trembling before Paul and Silas.
30 And he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
Question: How could the jailer have ask this question to Paul about being saved
were he not being drawn to believe in the Lord,
This was no "drawing" to believe in the Lord, this was conviction, certainty and fear beyond doubt, which only the Holy Spirit can give, that he was in desperate need of saving to avoid dire peril.
the word of God was convicting him of his sin and need for a Savior; plus the fact Paul stated nothing of what you said must happen first, but said this:
31 So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.” 32 Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house.
33 And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their stripes. And immediately he and all his family were baptized. 34 Now when he had brought them into his house, he set food before them; and he rejoiced, having believed in God with all his household.

Having read this, does it not make you reconsider what you said: "and believing it is the result of being born again, for one cannot even see (much less believe in) the Kingdom of God without the rebirth by the Holy Spirit".
Well, actually, I see it more as an example of what I am saying.
Were this true, would Paul have told him what he said in v31 through v34 about how to be saved?
No one had to tell Paul, after himself being knocked off his own horse by the power of God in his rebirth and conversion, what was going on with the jailer.
Paul knew the jailer would not have even been asking the question had not the power of God in rebirth mightily convicted him to do so.
 
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Jesus is YHWH

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John 3:8-7 explains how spiritual rebirth happens. . .a completely sovereign act of God.
And until that happens, no one believes the word of God, as my brother did not, because he was not reborn.

Which does not preclude the necessity of rebirth before the faith that comes by hearing can take place.

Actually, Jesus was the one who said that in John 3:3, it was not me.

If I had to locate the time of the jailer's rebirth, I would locate it with that earthquake by the power of God, which power at the same time operated in his spirit, "shivering his timbers."
It was a reborn jailer, who according to v.30 would have been listening to Paul and Silas along with the prisoners before he finally fell asleep, who fell down trembling before Paul and Silas.

This was no "drawing" to believe in the Lord, this was conviction, certainty and fear beyond doubt, which only the Holy Spirit can give, that he was in desperate need of saving to avoid dire peril.

Well, actually, I see it as an example of what I said.
No one had to tell Paul, after himself being knocked off his own horse by the power of God in his rebirth and conversion, what was going on with the jailer.
The jailer would not have even been asking the question had not the power of God in rebirth mightily convicted him to do so.
Did you speak in tongues when you were born again ?
 
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iwbswiaihl

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John 3:8-7 explains how spiritual rebirth happens. . .a completely sovereign act of God.
And until that happens, no one believes the word of God, as my brother did not, because he was not reborn.

Which does not preclude the necessity of rebirth before the faith that comes by hearing can take place.

Actually, Jesus was the one who said that in John 3:3, it was not me.

If I had to locate the time of the jailer's rebirth, I would locate it with that earthquake by the power of God, which power at the same time operated in his spirit, "shivering his timbers."
It was a reborn jailer, who according to v.30 would have been listening to Paul and Silas along with the prisoners before he finally fell asleep, who fell down trembling before Paul and Silas.

This was no "drawing" to believe in the Lord, this was conviction, certainty and fear beyond doubt, which only the Holy Spirit can give, that he was in desperate need of saving to avoid dire peril.

Well, actually, I see it as an example of what I said.
No one had to tell Paul, after himself being knocked off his own horse by the power of God in his rebirth and conversion, what was going on with the jailer.
The jailer would not have even been asking the question had not the power of God in rebirth mightily convicted him to do so.
To be honest with you but not meaning to be disrespectful most of your answer seem to simply states what you believe; like when you said: If I had to locate the time of the jailer's rebirth, I would locate it with that earthquake by the power of God, which power at the same time operated in his spirit, "shivering his timbers." That is not what the scripture actually said though, is it? I posted what the verses actually said, and when we get to the split in road, so to speak, I will go my way and you take your way. And when passing from this life to the heavenly home, we may meet there some day.
 
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To be honest with you but not meaning to be disrespectful most of your answer seem to simply states what you believe; like when you said: If I had to locate the time of the jailer's rebirth, I would locate it with that earthquake by the power of God, which power at the same time operated in his spirit, "shivering his timbers." That is not what the scripture actually said though, is it? I posted what the verses actually said, and when we get to the split in road, so to speak, I will go my way and you take your way. And when passing from this life to the heavenly home, we may meet there some day.
Ditto
 
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Clare73

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Did you speak in tongues when you were born again ?
Do we find that phenomenon throughout the NT at rebirth, or only in the beginning as a witness to the gospel?

No, I did not, and still do not.
 
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