What is wrong with Calvinism ?

[Clare73]

What would be the point of imputing/crediting man with sin when obviously all men sin?

God purposed two Adam's (1 Corinthians 15:21-23, 1 Corinthians 15:45-39), and
he purposed the first Adam to be a pattern for the second Adam (!) (Romans 5:14),
which Paul demonstrates in Romans 5:12-21,
whereby all those born of the first Adam are condemned by imputation of his guilt, as a pattern of
all those (re)born of the second Adam being redeemed by imputation of his righteousness (justification). (Romans 1:17, Romans 3:21-24)

 

[misput]

Clare Quote "The NT does not present the mercy of a "break" or "benefit" to those ignorant of the law who will, therefore, be judged by their conscience.

The NT presents all mankind, without exception, as unrighteous and hell-bound (Romans 3:12),
shut up in sin (Romans 11:32), and whose only way out is by the mercy of God through faith in Jesus Christ."
There are multitudes since time began who were and are ignorant of the law and Christ. I believe Paul is saying in Rom. 1 & 2 creation and conscious becomes the gospel for these. To believe these are condemned to hell would be like believing God chooses some to hell for no reason, whatever hell is, no one seems to know for sure. Probably because the details of heaven and hell are above our pay grade. Paul went to heaven an declared it wasn't possible to describe it.

 

[Clare73]

Another way of looking at things per your Accountant POV is that
if I write a check and the other person does not cash it, where is the double payment?

Does God use U.S. dollars?

You may be interested to know that "forgiveness" is an accounting term, meaning "cancellation of debt."

Be that as it may. . .so you're telling me that Jesus died a death horrible and brutal enough to earn a deposit big enough to cover checks he would write, many of which would not be cashed?
You're telling me he died for nothing in all those cases?
Where is divine justice in that?
You're telling me the just Father had him suffer needlessly and, therefore, unjustly, in all those cases?

Are you sure about that?
God is perfectly just, and that would not be justice.

Calvinists and Charismatics like myself see two different wills. You term God's will being his desire and his decreed will. If God can decree a thing (because man's free will is not a factor), why would he make it different from his desire? Charismatics see God's Perfect Will and God's Permissive Will. Per Matthew 6:10, we see God's Perfect will as "God's will be done on earth as it is in heaven". I believe Calvinists see that as God's desire. The difference between us is we believe that cooperation with God (per prayer and obedience) leads to seeing God's Perfect Will. Permissive will as a far lower standard that allows God's desire to not be done because men reap what they sow.
I don't see any problem with God's love, mercy, and justice. Just Calvinist's dark, unloving view of God - I don't believe God predestines anyone to the lake of fire for eternity in order to receive glory.

Thanks.

However, the Bible knows nothing of a "permissive" will of God (Exodus 4:21; Exodus 9:16; 1 Samuel 18:10; 2 Samuel 24:1, 2 Samuel 24:10; 1 Kings 22:23; Job 12:16; Ezekiel 14:9; Daniel 4:25).
The Bible knows only the revealed will of God, which man is commanded to obey, but disobeys, and
the secret will of God, which God has decided it is best for us not to know (Deuteronomy 29:29),
and which is always done (Isaiah 46:10-11).

The Bible knows nothing of a God who unwillingly grants what he does not wish to happen (Exodus 4:11b, Deuteronomy 32:39; 1 Samuel 2:7; 1 Kings 11:14, 23, 1 Kings 12:15, 24; Job 1:12; Isaiah 45:7, Isaiah 53:10, 54:16; Jeremiah 44:27-28; Lamentations 3:37-38; Amos 3:6; Zechariah 11:16; Matthew 10:29; John 9:2-3; Revelation 17:17).
The God of the Bible is sovereign. Everything that happens is according to his secret and all-wise counsels (Isaiah 53:10; Daniel 11:36; Acts 2:23, 3:18, 4:28, 13:48),
determined in eternity past before the worlds were ever created (Matthew 25:34; Ephesians 1:4; Revelation 13:8, 17:8).

The Bible knows nothing of a God whose will is thwarted by man (2 Chronicles 20:6; Job 9:12, Job 42:2; Isaiah 14:27; Daniel 4:35),
nor of a God whose plans are conditioned or determined by (Exodus 9:16, Acts 4:28) the actions of men,
nor who sustains loss because of (John 6:37; Acts 13:48) the actions of men.
The Bible knows only a God who ordains or decrees (not permits) everything (Lamentations 3:37),
down to the last detail (Psalms 50:11, Psalms 139:16, Psalms 147:4; Matthew 10:30).

It is men, not the Bible, who present God as simply knowing in advance what men are going to do.
The Bible presents God as causing men to do what he wills them to do (Genesis 20:6; Exodus 3:21, 14:17, 23:27; Deuteronomy 2:25, Deuteronomy 2:30; Joshua 11:20; 1 Samuel 10:9; 2 Samuel 24:1; 1 Kings 22:23; 1 Chronicles 5:26; Ezra 1:1, Ezra 1:5; Nehemiah 2:12, 7:5; Proverbs 21:1; Ezekiel 14:9; Daniel 1:9, 11:36; John 6:37; Acts 2:23, 4:28, 13:48; 2 Corinthians 8:16; Revelation 17:17.

For the answer to man's objection to this, see Romans 9:19-21.

Does this make me a "Calvinist"?

 

[Clare73]

Clare Quote "The NT does not present the mercy of a "break" or "benefit" to those ignorant of the law who will, therefore, be judged by their conscience.
The NT presents all mankind, without exception, as unrighteous and hell-bound (Romans 3:12),shut up in sin (Romans 11:32), and whose only way out is by the mercy of God through faith in Jesus Christ."
There are multitudes since time began who were and are ignorant of the law and Christ. I believe Paul is saying in Rom. 1 & 2 creation and conscious becomes the gospel for these.

He is saying that creation and conscience are the law by which they will be judged, according to what they have done (Romans 2:6).
They will be condemned by the "law of creation and conscience" because they did not keep them perfectly, they violated them (Romans 2:13), their consciences accusing them when they disobeyed, and defending them when they obeyed (Romans 2:15).

To believe these are condemned to hell would be like believing
God chooses some to hell for no reason,

They go to hell for violating the law they knew.

whatever hell is, no one seems to know for sure. Probably because the details of heaven and hell are above our pay grade. Paul went to heaven an declared it wasn't possible to describe it.

 

[RickReads]

I did not say they would be damned for Adams sin either, but because they inherited the sin nature from their parents and one must repent and belief on the Lord or else they would face judgment, would they not? Because all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

That is what I believe as well so I`m not sure what you think the problem is.

 

[John Mullally]

Things I find wrong about Calvinism:

1. Calvinists have God in charge of our actions even though the scriptures are full of directives addressed to men. Why the directives, if God controls our actions? Seems literally like miss-direction.
2. Calvinists (at least Clare73) says the God in charge of everything decrees things out of line with His desires.
3. 1 Timothy 2:4 & 2 Peter 3:9 say that God desires all to be saved, but Calvin says that God predestines some before birth to eternal hell fire and God receives glory from that. Perhaps this mystery is solved by understanding Point #2.
4. Calvinists say that a God who predestines some before birth to eternal hell fire is a God of Love, Mercy, and Justice.

How does believing Calvinist theology make me a better person? I don't see how believing any of the above is going to make anyone a better person.

Show me where I am wrong, so I can refine my list.

 

[misput]

It's an application of the doctrine of the two Adam's (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,
1 Corinthians 15:45-39) which Paul demonstrates in Romans 5:12-21,
whereby all those born of the first Adam are condemned by imputation of his guilt,
and all those reborn of the second Adam are redeemed by imputation of his righteousness (justification).

That is your doctrine, not mine.

He is saying that creation and conscience are the law by which they will be judged, according to what they have done (Romans 2:6).
They will be condemned by the "law of creation and conscience" because they did not keep them perfectly, they violated them (Romans 2:13), their consciences accusing them when they disobeyed, and defending them when they obeyed (Romans 2:15).

They go to hell for violating the law they knew.

No one goes to hell for violating the law. We go to hell for not believing in the Lord. Creation and conscience are the only gospel people who never heard of the Lord have to believe in. This is why I have always said, there is much more to the gospel than we realize.

 

[RickReads]

Are you aware that is an extra-Biblical construct, not authorized by the NT (1 Corinthians 4:6), and which constructs of man invariably lead to error?
Why the need to add to the Scriptures?
The opposition to these terms, Rick, is not unfortunate for the Scriptures, for any true "unfolding" of the NT is presented in NT apostolic teaching, where we find no such thing.
That is not a "NT detail" of the NT "unfolding the way that it does," that is a construct of man imposed on the NT without Biblical authority.
Any true "unfolding" of the NT is presented in NT teaching, which that is not.
Thanks. . .but a rose by any other name still smells the same.

In light of your insulting accusations I`ve lost interest in wasting my time answering all these because it's not going to be a worthwhile conversation. Your talk of ad hominem is a glass house and you are not the Paul expert you believe yourself to be.

 

[Clare73]

Things I find wrong about Calvinism:Calvinists have God in charge of our actions even though the scriptures are full of directives addressed to men. Why the directives, if God controls our actions?Calvinists say the God in charge of everything decrees things completely out of line with His desires.1 Timothy 2:4 & 2 Peter 3:9 say that God desires all to be saved, but Calvin says that God predestines some before birth to eternal hell fire and God receives glory from that. Perhaps this mystery is solved by understanding Point #2.Calvinists say that a God who predestines some before birth to eternal hell fire is a God of Love, Mercy, and Justice.How does believing Calvinist theology make me a better person? I don't see how believing any of the above is going to make anyone a better person.
Show me where I am wrong.

I'm taking a pass on this. . .I do Scripture, not "ism's."

 

[Clare73]

It's part of the doctrine of the two Adam's (1 Corinthians 15:21-23, 1 Corinthians 15:45-39), where the first Adam is a pattern for the second Adam (!) (Romans 5:14),
and which Paul demonstrates in Romans 5:12-21,
whereby all those born of the first Adam are condemned by imputation of his guilt,
and all those (re)born of the second Adam are redeemed by imputation of his righteousness (justification).

That is your doctrine, not mine.

It is the doctrine of neither of us, it is the doctrine of the NT.

No one goes to hell for violating the law. We go to hell for not believing in the Lord. Creation and conscience are the only gospel people who never heard of the Lord have to believe in. This is why I have always said, there is much more to the gospel than we realize.

Biblical demonstration of your assertion?

 

[Clare73]

In light of your insulting accusations I`ve lost interest in wasting my time answering all these because it's not going to be a worthwhile conversation. Your talk of ad hominem is a glass house and you are not the Paul expert you believe yourself to be.

I understand. . .

And I see myself as having a working knowledge, rather than being an expert.

 

[John Mullally]

I'm taking a pass on this. . .I do Scripture, not "ism's."

Calvin, the guy behind your ism, presents a God without love. Its all a resounding gong.

“…individuals are born, who are doomed from the womb to certain death, and are to glorify him by their destruction.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 6)​

1 Corinthians 13:1 If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal.​

 

[iwbswiaihl]

It is the doctrine of neither of us, it is the doctrine of the NT.

Biblical demonstration of your assertion?

That is your doctrine, not mine.

No one goes to hell for violating the law. We go to hell for not believing in the Lord. Creation and conscience are the only gospel people who never heard of the Lord have to believe in. This is why I have always said, there is much more to the gospel than we realize.

[ Not replying to what other that you said in post other than your statement here: No one goes to hell for violating the law. We go to hell for not believing in the Lord. Creation and conscience are the only gospel people who never heard of the Lord have to believe in. This is why I have always said, there is much more to the gospel than we realize.] One would go to that place of torment because of the law of sin and death, the wages of sin is for everlasting torment in the lake of fire, not believing in Jesus Christ as the one who paid of our debt is the way into His righteousness and Him being the spotless lamb of God who paid the sin debt for all those who do believe in Him as their sin bearer/Savior. If one never violated the law there would be no debt to paid, only the Lord Jesus Christ did that for those who repent and place their faith in Him would be more correct than your statement, "no one goes to hell for violating the law, wouldn't it? Of course, every tub sets on its own bottom. What say you?

 

[Clare73]

Calvin, the guy behind your ism, presents a God without love. Its all a resounding gong.

“…individuals are born, who are doomed from the womb to certain death, and are to glorify him by their destruction.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 6)​

1 Corinthians 13:1 If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal.​

I'm still trying to figure out if I am a Calvinist. No one has commented what the following shows me to be:

I believe Romans 5:18--"the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men."
We are born condemned.
Like it or not, that is the word of God written and, therefore, I believe it.

I also believe John 6:65, John 6:37, John 6:39; i.e., shutting up faith to the power of God only, which basically means only God is the source of the new birth (John 3:8), which gift of new birth is the source of saving faith (Acts 13:48; Act 18:27; Philippians 1:29; 2 Peter 1:1; Romans 12:3).

I believe that salvation from the wrath of God on sin (John 3:36; Romans 5:9), which wrath by nature we are objects of (Ephesians 2:3), is by faith in and trust on the person and atoning sacrifice (blood, Romans 3:25) of Jesus Christ for the remission of one's sin and right standing with God's justice; i.e., "not guilty," by faith declared righteous (justified) with the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ (Romans 1:17, Romans 3:21-24), the same way Abraham was (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:2-3).

I believe from before the foundations of the world God fore-knew (loved, Matthew 7:31) those whom he then predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son that the Son might have many brothers, and whom he called, justified and glorified (Romans 8:29-30).

I believe that all men will be judged by the light they have, and whether that light be law or conscience, all will be found to be unrighteous according to it (Romans 2:12-16). Only those in Jesus Christ will be found righteous, with the perfect righteousness of Jesus Christ.

I believe God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all (Romans 11:32) according to the terms he has specified in his word written (Ephesians 2:8-9).

Anything outside those parameters is above my paygrade.
For where the word of God makes an end to teaching, I must make an end to learning.

So am I a Calvinist?

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

I'm still trying to figure out if I am a Calvinist. No one has commented what the following shows me to be:

I believe Romans 5:18--"the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men."
We are born condemned.
Like it or not, that is the word of God written and, therefore, I believe it.

I also believe John 6:65, John 6:37, John 6:39; i.e., shutting up faith to the power of God only, which basically means only God is the source of the new birth (John 3:8), which gift of new birth is the source of saving faith (Acts 13:48; Act 18:27; Philippians 1:29; 2 Peter 1:1; Romans 12:3).

I believe that salvation from the wrath of God on sin (John 3:36; Romans 5:9), which wrath by nature we are objects of (Ephesians 2:3), is by faith in and trust on the person and atoning sacrifice (blood, Romans 3:25) of Jesus Christ for the remission of one's sin and right standing with God's justice; i.e., "not guilty," by faith declared righteous (justified) with the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ (Romans 1:17, Romans 3:21-24), the same way Abraham was (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:2-3).

I believe that all men will be judged by the light they have, and whether that light be law or conscience, all will be found to be unrighteous according to it (Romans 2:12-16). Only those in Jesus Christ will be found righteous, with the perfect righteousness of Jesus Christ.

I believe God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all (Romans 11:32) according to the terms he has specified in his word written (Ephesians 2:8-9).

Anything outside those parameters is above my paygrade.
For where the word of God makes an end to teaching, I must make an end to learning.

So am I a Calvinist?

No since James Arminius ( Arminianism) believed what you stated above. Tulip and Double Predestination have nothing to do with what you stated above.

hope this helps !!!

 

[John Mullally]

I'm still trying to figure out if I am a Calvinist. No one has commented what the following shows me to be:

I believe Romans 5:18--"the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men."
We are born condemned.
Like it or not, that is the word of God written and, therefore, I believe it.

I am only going to comment on Romans 5:18. If you take the first half of Romans 5:18 as condemning all men, then you have to take the second half as justifying all men.

Romans 5:18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.
​

Many non-Calvinists, like myself, do not see the free gift as something automatically received, but being more like a check that you can only cash by faith. Hebrews 4:1-2 supports that assertion if you replace a promise remains of entering His rest in Hebrews 4:1 with the free gift came in Romans 5:18.

Hebrews 4:1 Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it. 2 For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it.​

 

[misput]

It is the doctrine of neither of us, it is the doctrine of the NT.

That is what everyone thinks : )

Biblical demonstration of your assertion?

I already did, Rom. 1 & 2. Can you give me individual names of those in scripture you know for sure are in hell.
PS: When I post, it would be a common courtesy if you addressed each point and question, not just highlight and respond to one part.

 

[misput]

They go to hell for violating the law they knew.

Do you really believe this!

 

[misput]

[ Not replying to what other that you said in post other than your statement here: No one goes to hell for violating the law. We go to hell for not believing in the Lord. Creation and conscience are the only gospel people who never heard of the Lord have to believe in. This is why I have always said, there is much more to the gospel than we realize.] One would go to that place of torment because of the law of sin and death, the wages of sin is for everlasting torment in the lake of fire, not believing in Jesus Christ as the one who paid of our debt is the way into His righteousness and Him being the spotless lamb of God who paid the sin debt for all those who do believe in Him as their sin bearer/Savior. If one never violated the law there would be no debt to paid, only the Lord Jesus Christ did that for those who repent and place their faith in Him would be more correct than your statement, "no one goes to hell for violating the law, wouldn't it? Of course, every tub sets on its own bottom. What say you?

I believe we are misunderstanding each other.

 

[John Mullally]

Anything outside those parameters is above my paygrade.
For where the word of God makes an end to teaching, I must make an end to learning.

So am I a Calvinist?

First relax, spend some quiet time with the Lord - enter His Gates with thanksgiving and enter His Courts with praise (Psalm 100:4).

There is plenty of the NT (written to believers) to plumb other than Soteriology related texts.

Peace