What is wrong with Calvinism ?

[zoidar]

Yes, because while Jesus knows who are his enemies, we do not.

The one we think is an enemy may well be one that comes to faith and is God's elect, and in reality we would actually be hating our brother, not our enemy.

Sorry, but that was the most far-fetched idea I have heard in my life. No one is our brother or sister until they come to faith.

 

[Clare73]

Sorry, but that was the most far-fetched idea I have heard in my life.
No one is our brother or sister until they come to faith.

They are our brothers and sisters from before the foundation of the world.

Too much human thinking. . .not enough Biblical thinking. . .being received.

 

[zoidar]

Mistaken: first, those without the law did not sin (Romans 5:14), because there was no law to sin against, yet they died anyway.
Why?
Adam's guilt was imputed to them.

Eh, ok no one sinned before the Law? Maybe you meant no one was accountable for their sins before the Law?

For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law.
— Romans 2:12

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned⁠— for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
— Romans 5:12-14

Death spread to all men, because all men sinned. Even sin wasn't imputed by Law, death reigned through sins that wasn't like Adams, where Adam had broken a command, those who sinned without Law didn't have such a command as Adam. Yet death still reigned through their sins.

Just as sin leading to death came from Adam, righteous leading to life came from Christ.

For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.
— Romans 5:17

 

[Clare73]

Eh, ok no one sinned before the Law?
Maybe you meant no one was accountable for their sins before the Law?

Or maybe I meant what the Scripture states in Romans 5:14, "death reigned over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam.

For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law.
— Romans 2:12

Context. . .in context, "without the law" refers to all men pre-Abraham, and to the Gentiles from Abraham forward.

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned⁠— for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
— Romans 5:12-14

That is the conundrum Paul presents in Romans 5:12-14. . .where there is no law there is no sin, yet all sinned, as proven by the death of all between Adam and Moses.
So what was the sin?

Death spread to all men, because all men sinned. Even sin wasn't imputed by Law, death reigned through sins that wasn't like Adams, where Adam had broken a command, those who sinned without Law didn't have such a command as Adam. Yet death still reigned through their sins.

So what sin condemned those who did not sin? (Romans 5:14)

Just as sin leading to death came from Adam, righteous leading to life came from Christ.
For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.
— Romans 5:17

Transgression of the one, not transgression of all, yet all died.
For what sin?

Not their own, they did not sin (Romans 5:14) because there was no law to transgress.

So what is the answer to the question: what sin condemned those who did not sin?

See Romans 5:15-17.

The guilt of Adam was imputed to all the seed of Adam, causing their condemnation (Romans 5:18),
as the pattern (Romans 5:14) for the righteousness of Christ imputed to all the seed of Christ (Romans 5:18-19).

 

[zoidar]

Or maybe I meant what the Scripture states in Romans 5:14, "death reigned over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam.
Context. . .in context, "without the law" refers to all men pre-Abraham, and to the Gentiles from Abraham forward.

That is the conundrum Paul presents in Romans 5:12-14. . .where there is no law there is no sin, yet all sinned, as proven by the death of all between Adam and Moses.
So what was the sin?

So what sin condemned those who did not sin? (Romans 5:14)

Transgression of the one, not transgression of all, yet all died.
For what sin?

Not their own, they did not sin (Romans 5:14) because there was no law to transgress.

So what is the answer to the question: what sin condemned those who did not sin?

See Romans 5:15-17.

The guilt of Adam was imputed to all the seed of Adam, causing their condemnation (Romans 5:18),
as the pattern (Romans 5:14) for the righteousness of Christ imputed to all the seed of Christ (Romans 5:18-19).

Eveyone sinned...

... so death spread to all men, because all sinned⁠—
— Romans 5:12

 

[Clare73]

Eveyone sinned...

... so death spread to all men, because all sinned⁠—
— Romans 5:12

Why do you ignore "those who did not sin" (Romans 5:14) because there was no law to transgress (Romans 5:13)?

Let's be a little more "thorough."

.

 

[zoidar]

They are our brothers and sisters from before the foundation of the world.

Too much human thinking. . .not enough Biblical thinking. . .being received.

What you are presenting is not Bible, it's doctrine.

Can you refer to one place in the NT where someone who isn't a follower of Christ is referred to a brother or sister?

 

[zoidar]

Why do you ignore "those who did not sin" (Romans 5:14) because there ws no law to transgress (Romans 5:13)?

Let's be a little more "thorough."

.

It doesn't say there were those who did not sin. It's your interpretation of the text.

Even sin wasn't imputed before the Law still people died from their sin.

 

[Mark Quayle]

God holding us responsible for a sin we have not committed is obviously (I think it's obvious) unjust by God. But if Adam's sin lead to a disease which is spread through inheritance, how is that making God unjust? Sure it's not just we inherit the disease, but it's not God's doing. It's not Him being unjust, but it's an "unjust" consequence of life. Some die young, some die old, is that God's fault?

Lol, if God does it, how is it a fault? The Lord gives and the Lord takes away. Are you going to say he doesn't?

But God has the just right to do whatever he will with his creation. If he wants to wipe out several whole generations (see The Flood) he is not unjust to do so. Fault? Theirs. But he is the one who did it.

This life is not for this life, but for the next, not for us, but for God. Do you have anything to comment about corporate humanity vs individuals? Why would God be unjust to cause the individuals of a corrupt society to die, including the children?

 

[Mark Quayle]

What you are presenting is not Bible, it's doctrine.

Can you refer to one place in the NT where someone who isn't saved is refered to a brother or sister?

When any NT author speaks to a body of believers, his brothers and sisters, necessarily there will be some that are at that point only Christians in name, not in fact.

 

[Clare73]

What you are presenting is not Bible, it's doctrine.

Where do you think doctrine comes from (1 Timothy 4:16; Titus 1:9, Titus 2:1)?

Can you refer to one place in the NT where someone who isn't saved is refered to a brother or sister?

Can you refer to a place where it states they are not?

 

[zoidar]

When any NT author speaks to a body of believers, his brothers and sisters, necessarily there will be some that are at that point only Christians in name, not in fact.

That was not my point. Change it to "a follower of Christ" then.

 

[Mark Quayle]

All right, God made clear the law before Cain slew Abel.
There wasn't any forgiveness or redemption after Cain slew Abel.

Not saying at all that I agree with Misput, but how do you know there wasn't?

 

[zoidar]

Can you refer to a place where it states they are not?

It's you who said that the elect are brothers and sisters, before they are born again. If you state that, I think it's fair you show Scripture for it.

On the contrary Paul says we were enemies before we were born again. If we were enemies to God, how could we be brothers and sisters?

For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
— Romans 5:10

 

[Clare73]

It doesn't say there were those who did not sin.

Romans 5:14 - "but death reigned from Adam until Moses even over those not sinning in the likeness of the transgression of Adam (transgression of law: "Thou shalt not eat of it."), who is a type (pattern) of the one coming (Christ)".

Please quote Romans 5:14 from your text.

Even sin wasn't imputed before the Law still people died from their sin.

No, they died of sin, because death is the result of sin (Romans 6:23).
but they did not die of "their" sin, for no sin was reckoned or accounted to them (Romans 5:13).

If we can't agree that Romans 5:13 states sin is not accounted/reckoned where there is no law, and that
Romans 5:14 states those between Adam and Moses committed no transgression of law,
then we have no basis for discussion.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Do you have a bible search engine? Look up "do well and well done" what do they usually mean?
Mt 25:21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
What does "sin is crouching at the door and desires to have you" mean to you"?
Lu 22:31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:
What does the whole council of scripture teach about these things"? These are certainly not a guessing game to me.


What does God saying "be accepted" mean to u? The scripture says God is the same yesterday, today and forever. What does that mean to u?

The only thing silly is looking for black and white answers for Spiritual questions.

What's silly is thinking the answers Scripture gives are subject to any person's interpretation.

 

[Clare73]

It's you who said that the elect are brothers and sisters, before they are born again. If you state that, I think it's fair you show Scripture for it.

Irrelevant to the point of loving one's enemies because they may not be your enemies, they may be your brother or sister.

 

[zoidar]

Romans 5:14 - "but death reigned from Adam until Moses even over those not sinning in the likeness of the transgression of Adam (transgression of law: "Thou shalt not eat of it."), who is a type (pattern) of the one coming (Christ)".

Please quote Romans 5:14 from your text.

No, they died of sin, because death is the result of sin (Romans 6:23).
but they did not die of "their" sin, for no sin was reckoned or accounted to them (Romans 5:13).

If we can't agree that Romans 5:13 states sin is not accounted/reckoned where there is no law, and that
Romans 5:14 states those between Adam and Moses committed no transgression of law,
then we have no basis for discussion.

Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
— Romans 5:14

Two things:

1. It does not say they did not sin. It says they did not sin in the likeness of the offense of Adam. Why does v. 12 say that all sinned, if not all sinned? It wasn't imputed, but sure they sinned.

2. I'm not sure but I think death here might refer to physical death, so even their sins wasn't imputed they died physically from sin.

 

[Clare73]

Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
— Romans 5:14
Two things:
1. It does not say they did not sin. It says they did not sin in the likeness of the offense of Adam. Why does v. 12 say that all sinned, if not all sinned? It wasn't imputed, but sure they sinned.

We are not in agreement on the meaning of Romans 5:14 and, therefore, have no basis for discussion.

2. I tend to think death here refers to physical death, so even their sins wasn't imputed they died physically from sin.

Yes, it refers to physical death.

 

[zoidar]

We are not in agreement on the meaning of Romans 5:14 and, therefore, have no basis for discussion.

Yes, it refers to physical death.

Ok, let us just focus on one verse, v. 12. Can you give me a good explanation why Paul says all sinned? So far you have just avoided to comment on it.

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned⁠—
— Romans 5:12