What is wrong with Calvinism ?

[Mark Quayle]

There is the argument again: "God can do whatever He likes." How does that show we are responsible? And no! Scripture does not confirm your position. Since Scripture affirms personal responsibility, it affirms free will. There is no need for reinterpretation of Scripture, we agree there.

But Adam "robbed a bank" (ate from the tree), and now you say we have the guilt for it... No we don't know it is so. Not all Christians agree with this idea.

Doesn't matter if all Christians agree. Doesn't even matter if ANY Christians agree, as to whether a thing is true or not.

I don't believe God is holding us responsible for inclinations, but for sins we actually commit. How are "freely chosing sin" making us responsible, if what we will to choose is caused by God? To me this sounds like eating the cake and have it too. On one hand affirming our responsibilty and then saying God is the reason we will what we will. I don't see how it's not a contradiction.

He has every righteous just right to hold us responsible for our enmity against him. Goodness knows! he did so to several generations all at once, because the inclinations of their heart was evil, in the flood. He can dispose of any marred vessel. But I'm not saying he does hold us responsible for inclinations. I'm saying that freely willing to sin IS freewill. And we always choose according to our inclinations.

Again how am I responsible for my willful choice, if God is the cause of it?

If just by the cold logic of causation it is obvious we do not operate on his level, deistically. But more than that, he has the absolute right to paint a picture, tell a story, or whatever else you might use for a parallel notion to his creating. He spoke into creation this whole 6000 (or 15 billion or whatever) years. And it was so when he spoke it. We are creatures, existing in this 'envelope within reality'. You want free will? There it is, we do, just as he wrote, planned, imagined, —spoke into reality. You going to say we operate on his level where he doesn't know and must wait for our decisions before making his?

This feels like a topic for another discussion.

That is something we can discuss. It's an interesting topic, but I don't see it as part of this discussion: "How we can be responsible without free will."

No, it's the same discussion

No, I'm saying God is not inputing guilt to us, but a sinful nature.

"God can do whatever He pleases" ? No, not really. He can't be unjust. That is against His character.

You are mentioning what sounds like "mystery". Sure it can be a mystery. And yes, we don't know everything. But that is not a logical argument for us being responsible.

God doesn't please to be unjust. The claim remains valid, that God can do whatever he pleases. We are incapable of describing or even comprehending rules to which God must comply. Our conceptions are only crutches to help us walk.

If God holds us responsible for A He can also hold us responsible for B. Sure He can. But Him holding us responsible, does it make us logically responsible? Where do you find that personal responsibility?

I don't think God imputed Adams sin to us, but his sinful nature.

My point, again, in my "4 ways" was not to show what we might consider direct logical proof that we are responsible, but ways that we can show the opposite is not true.

As for the question of imputed sin, the guilt of it is imputed. The sinful nature is inherited. Perhaps the two always happen together, but that is not the point of the argument, nor does it deny the point of the argument.

I give up. . .the same reason no verses mention "Trinity". . .or "sovereignty" regarding God?

Agreed; neither does it mention 'free will' as is meant by it in this context

 

[zoidar]

Adam's sinful nature is inherited, not "imputed," and we are not condemned for it.

Inherited, correct! Thanks!

 

[misput]

God has every right to include us as cells of a corrupt body to be disposed of or whatever else he wishes to do with us. You consider each individual an end unto himself?

Not if He is our loving Father, see all scripture of His love, mercy, forgiveness, etc.. Your theology is way off. Don"t take my word, see all scripture not isolated and misinterpreted verses.

 

[misput]

Except that the apostle teaches that it is (Romans 5:12-14, Romans 5:18).

See post 3603

 

[Clare73]

See post 3603

Thanks, but I see no Biblical demonstration of error.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Not if He is our loving Father, see all scripture of His love, mercy, forgiveness, etc.. Your theology is way off. Don"t take my word, see all scripture not isolated and misinterpreted verses.

What do you do with Romans 9:13-24? Ignore the obvious as if it is isolated? Discard or ignore it in favor of your supposed not isolated correctly interpreted passages supposedly favoring freewill? And yes, there are many more besides Romans 9. In fact, most of the passages I have seen supposedly supporting freewill, are actually in their context rather strong support of predestination and the other tenets of the Gospel of Grace.

 

[Clare73]

I can't help but wonder what you do with this: "For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous." (Romans 6:14) and its context.

Ya' mean Romans 5:19?

 

[zoidar]

I give up. . .the same reason no verses mention "Trinity". . .or "sovereignty" regarding God?

The Bible has verses that says God is almighty. Isn't that the same as sovereign?

 

[Clare73]

The Bible has verses that says God is almighty. Isn't that the same as sovereign?

Not quite. . .

The same method applies to "guilt."

 

[zoidar]

Not quite. . .

The same method applies to "guilt."

What would be the difference?

Ok, what word do Paul use instead of guilt?

 

[Clare73]

What would be the difference?

Ok, what word do Paul use instead of guilt?

Not "instead of". . .condemnation. . .due only to guilt.

 

[misput]

What do you do with Romans 9:13-24? Ignore the obvious as if it is isolated? Discard or ignore it in favor of your supposed not isolated correctly interpreted passages supposedly favoring freewill? And yes, there are many more besides Romans 9. In fact, most of the passages I have seen supposedly supporting freewill, are actually in their context rather strong support of predestination and the other tenets of the Gospel of Grace.

Down boy, one case at a time. Does condemned always mean too hell? Does it not have other meaning? When God had His discussion with Cain, did He condemn him too hell? Did He not tell him, if you do well , you will be accepted? Which I take to mean believe God. This after Adam's fall, (condemned too hell according to you) and Cain's actual sin un repented of up to this point. Do you think God's basic dealing with man has changed? I know some do. Even if we are condemned, we are not condemned too hell until or unless we die in this condition. Not to mention infants and children.

 

[Clare73]

Down boy, one case at a time. Does condemned always mean too hell? Does it not have other meaning. When God had His discussion with Cain, did He condemn him too hell?

Did God tell Cain he was condemned (John 3:18; John 5:24; Romans 5:18)?

Did He not tell him, if you do well , you will be accepted? Which I take to mean believe God. This after Adam's fall, (condemned too hell according to you) and Cain's actual sin un repented of up to this point. Do you think God's basic dealing with man has changed? I know some do. Even if we are condemned, we are not condemned too hell until or unless we die in this condition. Not to mention infants and children.

 

[misput]

Did God tell Cain he was condemned (John 3:18; John 5:24; Romans 5:18)?

Irrelevant and incomplete.

 

[atpollard]

Not if He is our loving Father, see all scripture of His love …

Examining the Gospels (to create a manageable quantity).

God’s Love:

• [Mark 10:21 NASB95] 21 Looking at him, Jesus felt a love for him and said to him, "One thing you lack: go and sell all you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”
  • Jesus, as God, counts, but this example was love for ONE INDIVIDUAL rather than a love for all men without exception.
• [Luke 11:38-44 NASB95] 38 When the Pharisee saw it, he was surprised that He had not first ceremonially washed before the meal. 39 But the Lord said to him, "Now you Pharisees clean the outside of the cup and of the platter; but inside of you, you are full of robbery and wickedness. 40 "You foolish ones, did not He who made the outside make the inside also? 41 "But give that which is within as charity, and then all things are clean for you. 42 "But woe to you Pharisees! For you pay tithe of mint and rue and every [kind of] garden herb, and [yet] disregard justice and the love of God; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others. 43 "Woe to you Pharisees! For you love the chief seats in the synagogues and the respectful greetings in the market places. 44 "Woe to you! For you are like concealed tombs, and the people who walk over [them] are unaware [of it.]"
  • At first glance, this might appear to refer to an attribute within God, but from the context it is clearly a love from God that should be within the people Jesus is speaking to … but is absent. That makes it a love FROM God within men rather than a love of all men within God.
• [John 5:39-42 NASB95] 39 "You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; 40 and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life. 41 "I do not receive glory from men; 42 but I know you, that you do not have the love of God in yourselves.
  • Again we have a love that SHOULD be in men but is not in a group of specific men. That says nothing about a universal love of God for all men.
• [John 11:3 NASB95] 3 So the sisters sent [word] to Him, saying, "Lord, behold, he whom You love is sick."
  • Another example that proves Jesus (God) loved a specific man, but not a claim that God loves all men.
• [John 14:20-23 NASB95] 20 "In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. 21 "He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him." 22 Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, what then has happened that You are going to disclose Yourself to us and not to the world?" 23 Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him.
  • Clearly, the love of God in these verses is real, but it is for some and not for all … not everyone will be saved, but according to this passage, everyone that God loves will be saved.
• [John 15:9-10 NASB95] 9 "Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love. 10 "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.
  • Another passage about God’s love for the saints and not a statement about God’s love for everyone.
• [John 17:26 NASB95] 26 and I have made Your name known to them, and will make it known, so that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them."
  • God’s love in “them” (the saints) … nothing about God loves all.

You may be able to produce a verse that either appears to say “God loves all men without exception” or may actually say “God loves all men without exception”. However, searching the Gospels reveals example after clear example of God loving some (and not all) or giving His love to some (and not all).

You challenged people to ”see all scripture of His love” and I did. Let’s contrast that to God’s many commands for men to love:

• [Matthew 5:43-44, 46 NASB95] 43 "You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR and hate your enemy.' 44 "But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, ... 46 "For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?
  
• [Matthew 6:24 NASB95] 24 "No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and wealth.
• [Matthew 19:19 NASB95] 19 HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER; and YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."
  
• [Matthew 22:37, 39 NASB95] 37 And He said to him, " 'YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.' ... 39 "The second is like it, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.'
  
• [Matthew 24:12 NASB95] 12 "Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold.
  
• [Mark 12:30-31, 33 NASB95] 30 AND YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH.' 31 "The second is this, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.' There is no other commandment greater than these." ... 33 AND TO LOVE HIM WITH ALL THE HEART AND WITH ALL THE UNDERSTANDING AND WITH ALL THE STRENGTH, AND TO LOVE ONE'S NEIGHBOR AS HIMSELF, is much more than all burnt offerings and sacrifices.
• [Luke 6:27, 32, 35 NASB95] 27 "But I say to you who hear, love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, ... 32 "If you love those who love you, what credit is [that] to you? For even sinners love those who love them. ... 35 "But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for He Himself is kind to ungrateful and evil [men.]
  
• [Luke 7:42 NASB95] 42 "When they were unable to repay, he graciously forgave them both. So which of them will love him more?"
  
• [Luke 10:27 NASB95] 27 And he answered, "YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND; AND YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."
  
• [Luke 16:13 NASB95] 13 "No servant can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and wealth."
• [John 8:42 NASB95] 42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me.
• [John 13:34-35 NASB95] 34 "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. 35 "By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."
• [John 14:15, 24 NASB95] 15 "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments. ... 24 "He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father's who sent Me.
• [John 15:12, 17 NASB95] 12 "This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you. ... 17 "This I command you, that you love one another.
• [John 21:15-17 NASB95] 15 So when they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, "Simon, [son] of John, do you love Me more than these?" He said to Him, "Yes, Lord; You know that I love You." He said to him, "Tend My lambs." 16 He said to him again a second time, "Simon, [son] of John, do you love Me?" He said to Him, "Yes, Lord; You know that I love You." He said to him, "Shepherd My sheep." 17 He said to him the third time, "Simon, [son] of John, do you love Me?" Peter was grieved because He said to him the third time, "Do you love Me?" And he said to Him, "Lord, You know all things; You know that I love You." Jesus said to him, "Tend My sheep.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Irrelevant and incomplete.

Just repeating the same 3 verses for the 100th time .

 

[zoidar]

Doesn't matter if all Christians agree. Doesn't even matter if ANY Christians agree, as to whether a thing is true or not.

Hm, even if the apostles agree on it? I understand what you are saying and I agree.

You going to say we operate on his level where he doesn't know and must wait for our decisions before making his?

No, I'm not saying that. Why would God need to wait? God knows our free will decisions outside of time.

My point, again, in my "4 ways" was not to show what we might consider direct logical proof that we are responsible, but ways that we can show the opposite is not true.

Aha, I see! But if you see that determinism (that was the only word I could come up with to describe your view. Feel free to correct me.) isn't Biblically possible, then what?

As for the question of imputed sin, the guilt of it is imputed. The sinful nature is inherited. Perhaps the two always happen together, but that is not the point of the argument, nor does it deny the point of the argument.

I just believe Adam's sinful nature was inherited, not that Adam's guilt was imputed. Like I said, that sounds, and not only sounds but is from reason unjust to me.

 

[zoidar]

Let's start with Romans 5:14. For what could sinful Adam possibly be a pattern for Christ, the sinless one, as the apostle teaches there that Adam is?

The pattern I see is that death came through Adam's sin and life comes from Christ's righteousness. And that sin reigned even over those that sinned without the Law before Moses.

Are you seeing something else?

 

[zoidar]

Examining the Gospels (to create a manageable quantity).

God’s Love:

• [Mark 10:21 NASB95] 21 Looking at him, Jesus felt a love for him and said to him, "One thing you lack: go and sell all you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”
  • Jesus, as God, counts, but this example was love for ONE INDIVIDUAL rather than a love for all men without exception.
• [Luke 11:38-44 NASB95] 38 When the Pharisee saw it, he was surprised that He had not first ceremonially washed before the meal. 39 But the Lord said to him, "Now you Pharisees clean the outside of the cup and of the platter; but inside of you, you are full of robbery and wickedness. 40 "You foolish ones, did not He who made the outside make the inside also? 41 "But give that which is within as charity, and then all things are clean for you. 42 "But woe to you Pharisees! For you pay tithe of mint and rue and every [kind of] garden herb, and [yet] disregard justice and the love of God; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others. 43 "Woe to you Pharisees! For you love the chief seats in the synagogues and the respectful greetings in the market places. 44 "Woe to you! For you are like concealed tombs, and the people who walk over [them] are unaware [of it.]"
  • At first glance, this might appear to refer to an attribute within God, but from the context it is clearly a love from God that should be within the people Jesus is speaking to … but is absent. That makes it a love FROM God within men rather than a love of all men within God.
• [John 5:39-42 NASB95] 39 "You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; 40 and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life. 41 "I do not receive glory from men; 42 but I know you, that you do not have the love of God in yourselves.
  • Again we have a love that SHOULD be in men but is not in a group of specific men. That says nothing about a universal love of God for all men.
• [John 11:3 NASB95] 3 So the sisters sent [word] to Him, saying, "Lord, behold, he whom You love is sick."
  • Another example that proves Jesus (God) loved a specific man, but not a claim that God loves all men.
• [John 14:20-23 NASB95] 20 "In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. 21 "He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him." 22 Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, what then has happened that You are going to disclose Yourself to us and not to the world?" 23 Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him.
  • Clearly, the love of God in these verses is real, but it is for some and not for all … not everyone will be saved, but according to this passage, everyone that God loves will be saved.
• [John 15:9-10 NASB95] 9 "Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love. 10 "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.
  • Another passage about God’s love for the saints and not a statement about God’s love for everyone.
• [John 17:26 NASB95] 26 and I have made Your name known to them, and will make it known, so that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them."
  • God’s love in “them” (the saints) … nothing about God loves all.

You may be able to produce a verse that either appears to say “God loves all men without exception” or may actually say “God loves all men without exception”. However, searching the Gospels reveals example after clear example of God loving some (and not all) or giving His love to some (and not all).

You challenged people to ”see all scripture of His love” and I did. Let’s contrast that to God’s many commands for men to love:

• [Matthew 5:43-44, 46 NASB95] 43 "You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR and hate your enemy.' 44 "But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, ... 46 "For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?
  
• [Matthew 6:24 NASB95] 24 "No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and wealth.
• [Matthew 19:19 NASB95] 19 HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER; and YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."
  
• [Matthew 22:37, 39 NASB95] 37 And He said to him, " 'YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.' ... 39 "The second is like it, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.'
  
• [Matthew 24:12 NASB95] 12 "Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold.
  
• [Mark 12:30-31, 33 NASB95] 30 AND YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH.' 31 "The second is this, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.' There is no other commandment greater than these." ... 33 AND TO LOVE HIM WITH ALL THE HEART AND WITH ALL THE UNDERSTANDING AND WITH ALL THE STRENGTH, AND TO LOVE ONE'S NEIGHBOR AS HIMSELF, is much more than all burnt offerings and sacrifices.
• [Luke 6:27, 32, 35 NASB95] 27 "But I say to you who hear, love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, ... 32 "If you love those who love you, what credit is [that] to you? For even sinners love those who love them. ... 35 "But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for He Himself is kind to ungrateful and evil [men.]
  
• [Luke 7:42 NASB95] 42 "When they were unable to repay, he graciously forgave them both. So which of them will love him more?"
  
• [Luke 10:27 NASB95] 27 And he answered, "YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND; AND YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."
  
• [Luke 16:13 NASB95] 13 "No servant can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and wealth."
• [John 8:42 NASB95] 42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me.
• [John 13:34-35 NASB95] 34 "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. 35 "By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."
• [John 14:15, 24 NASB95] 15 "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments. ... 24 "He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father's who sent Me.
• [John 15:12, 17 NASB95] 12 "This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you. ... 17 "This I command you, that you love one another.
• [John 21:15-17 NASB95] 15 So when they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, "Simon, [son] of John, do you love Me more than these?" He said to Him, "Yes, Lord; You know that I love You." He said to him, "Tend My lambs." 16 He said to him again a second time, "Simon, [son] of John, do you love Me?" He said to Him, "Yes, Lord; You know that I love You." He said to him, "Shepherd My sheep." 17 He said to him the third time, "Simon, [son] of John, do you love Me?" Peter was grieved because He said to him the third time, "Do you love Me?" And he said to Him, "Lord, You know all things; You know that I love You." Jesus said to him, "Tend My sheep.

Why did you leave out all the Epistles?

Do you think Jesus expects us to love our enemies if he isn't doing it himself?

 

[Mark Quayle]

Ya' mean Romans 5:19?

Haha! Yes, sorry! Wow! Copy-paste gone wrong.