What is wrong with Calvinism ?

[Mark Quayle]

A better person hopefully but still plagued by that old fleshly nature.

Yes, but that is still a general statement. It is YOU specifically he is working into what he had in mind when he made you! May even be more of a grouch than you were in your 50's, haha. I consider some who were, at least to their estimation, more obedient before, than at the time of their death. But at the time of their death, Christ was more precious than before, and God more glorious, and more desired.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Mark were you aware that Calvin was a lawyer and was never trained or schooled in theology ? His training was in law .

 

[Mark Quayle]

Thanks.

Just out of curiosity. What are your thoughts on the two trees, the snake and the "mark" of Cain in Genesis?

The story of Cain brings up a side thesis, that of Sin, and where it comes from, how it is caused, and its nature. Most believers that have had to deal with it logically (such as myself), with as few presuppositions as possible (not such as myself, haha), find themselves saying such as, "it is not ontologically 'a thing'", or it "is only the 'privation' of good" ('privation' being a very carefully chosen word to avoid certain contradictions and accusations).

Yet curiously, we find people enslaved by sin and governed by sin, and in Cain's story, sin takes on an almost animalistic or demonic personality, in "Behold, sin crouches at the threshold; it desires to have you, but you must master it." We also have Christ "became sin" for us. There's a lot we don't know.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Those passages don't repeat.

I meant, you said them twice in answer to two different posts of mine, as if repeating them after I asked for you to explain their relevance, was the explanation of the relevance.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Mark were you aware that Calvin was a lawyer and was never trained or schooled in theology ? His training was in law .

I've heard that. Not sure why you mentioned it. What is your point?

 

[Mark Quayle]

Lutheranism can be of great help in this regard. Lutherans do hold to that it's not our choice to repent that matters, but what God has done for us. How much do you know of Lutheranism?

Most Christians speak the same way. I have had the necessity of thinking that, logically, whatever condition, state, situation I find myself in, even by my own choices or sinfulness, is precisely where God intended me to be at that point in time, for my own sake and for the fulfillment of what he has planned from creation, and from there (indirectly), I gain the strength to get up and move forward. My victory has not been in my success, but in God's. I am not saying I don't still look for answers, and maybe I shouldn't take the attitude of, "I've heard it all before", but even from most Reformed sources I disparage what they might say on the subject. The church is full of sick people. I need to hear from the Physician himself.

 

[misput]

Yes, but that is still a general statement. It is YOU specifically he is working into what he had in mind when he made you! May even be more of a grouch than you were in your 50's, haha. I consider some who were, at least to their estimation, more obedient before, than at the time of their death. But at the time of their death, Christ was more precious than before, and God more glorious, and more desired.

That sure is a relief! Some have been trying to teach me that because of God's screw up with Adam He made me a child of wrath before I could see the light : ) See what I did there : )

 

[misput]

Funny, or strange, how the Tree of Life is there in Heaven/New Jerusalem, not to mention the weird concepts the description of it forms in the mind.

But I'm not sure what you are asking me, what are my thoughts on that.

One thought on it has to do with the concept of 'Allegory' or 'Symbolism' that people more and more seem to take to. Apparently their concept of 'literal' means that this all happened in our current 'way of things'. But I have noticed that we almost always see things backwards. One of my ways of thinking is that much of what people consider symbolic or allegorical, etc, is because they can't match what they read with their current temporal worldview, which they consider ontological reality.

Thus, to me, if what happens in Revelation or Daniel's prophecy, for example, is REAL, or literal, it is not according to this mode that we know of as reality, but as THE REAL, to which this is, according to Scripture, like a vapor. (Credit CS Lewis for giving my mind a working concept of this notion). So also, with the Eden story. We really don't know much. To us they apply perhaps allegorically, but present day existence is not the standard by which to interpret Scripture, even though we are stuck in it. In other words, a healthy skepticism of our thinking, particularly of our presuppositions, is in order.

In other words u don't know. That's OK, like I said: just curious. How about:
1Pe 3:18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;
19 in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison,
20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.
What is your interpretation of this?

 

[Mark Quayle]

When I was a calvinist I was just like MacArthur in my eschatology, pre-tribulation, premillennial, dispensationalist. I still hold those eschatological views but I'm not dogmatic about them. I believe the whole point is to be ready/prepared at all times that His return is immanent. Jesus had much to say in His parables about our readiness. When one has that view I believe it has a direct effect on how one lives their christian life.

hope this helps !!!

I completely agree with that! To me it made no sense, seeing as "the one who sins is a slave to sin", that one who had everything figured out, for example as to the Mark Of The Beast, that they would even be able to avoid it, even if they recognized it for what it was, if they had not the habit of obedience before that moment.

 

[Clare73]

When I was a calvinist I was just like MacArthur in my eschatology, pre-tribulation, premillennial, dispensationalist. I still hold those eschatological views but I'm not dogmatic about them. I believe the whole point is to be ready/prepared at all times that
His return is immanent.

Not immanent. . .one more thing must happen before it can occur, the man of lawlessness must be revealed (2 Thessalonians 2:3).

Jesus had much to say in His parables about our readiness. When one has that view I believe it has a direct effect on how one lives their christian life.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Mark Quayle]

In other words u don't know. That's OK, like I said: just curious. How about:
1Pe 3:18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;
19 in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison,
20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.
What is your interpretation of this?

Unknown. I'm pretty sure it has nothing to do with an after-death repentance. But I can't prove that.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Not immanent. . .one more thing must happen before it can occur, the man of lawlessness must be revealed (2 Thessalonians 2:3).

I believe it can happen at any time, because I have been wrong about many other things. As for the man of lawlessness, what does it mean —is it not possible that he has already been revealed and most did not realize it as such? But yes, I agree with the sequence as you show it.

 

[Clare73]

The story of Cain brings up a side thesis, that of Sin, and where it comes from, how it is caused, and its nature. Most believers that have had to deal with it logically (such as myself), with as few presuppositions as possible (not such as myself, haha), find themselves saying such as, "it is not ontologically 'a thing'", or it "is only the 'privation' of good" ('privation' being a very carefully chosen word to avoid certain contradictions and accusations).

Yet curiously, we find people enslaved by sin and governed by sin, and in Cain's story, sin takes on an almost animalistic or demonic personality, in "Behold, sin crouches at the threshold; it desires to have you, but you must master it."
We also have Christ "became sin" for us. There's a lot we don't know.

Sort of a mutual "imputation," of our sin to Christ (2 Corinthians 5:21) and his righteousness to us (Romans 1:17, Romans 3:21-24).

For some reason, I am content to think of it all in the terms in which it is revealed to us in Scripture, including the creation account.

If it all isn't actually as it is revealed, then I am persuaded the way it is revealed is the way God would have me think of it now, and that is fine with me.
I can wait until he gives me to know otherwise.

 

[Clare73]

I believe it can happen at any time, because I have been wrong about many other things. As for the man of lawlessness, what does it mean —is it not possible that he has already been revealed and most did not realize it as such? But yes, I agree with the sequence as you show it.

Is it really "revealed" if no one gets it. . .particularly so since Paul makes it the condition for the second coming?

 

[misput]

The story of Cain brings up a side thesis, that of Sin, and where it comes from, how it is caused, and its nature. Most believers that have had to deal with it logically (such as myself), with as few presuppositions as possible (not such as myself, haha), find themselves saying such as, "it is not ontologically 'a thing'", or it "is only the 'privation' of good" ('privation' being a very carefully chosen word to avoid certain contradictions and accusations).

Yet curiously, we find people enslaved by sin and governed by sin, and in Cain's story, sin takes on an almost animalistic or demonic personality, in "Behold, sin crouches at the threshold; it desires to have you, but you must master it." We also have Christ "became sin" for us. There's a lot we don't know.

Like u said, there is a lot we don't know.

 

[misput]

I completely agree with that! To me it made no sense, seeing as "the one who sins is a slave to sin", that one who had everything figured out, for example as to the Mark Of The Beast, that they would even be able to avoid it, even if they recognized it for what it was, if they had not the habit of obedience before that moment.

Speaking of the mark of the beast, how do you interpret that?

 

[zoidar]

Most Christians speak the same way. I have had the necessity of thinking that, logically, whatever condition, state, situation I find myself in, even by my own choices or sinfulness, is precisely where God intended me to be at that point in time, for my own sake and for the fulfillment of what he has planned from creation, and from there (indirectly), I gain the strength to get up and move forward. My victory has not been in my success, but in God's. I am not saying I don't still look for answers, and maybe I shouldn't take the attitude of, "I've heard it all before", but even from most Reformed sources I disparage what they might say on the subject. The church is full of sick people. I need to hear from the Physician himself.

As I got saved in 2010 I had my assurance of being saved in what I had experienced, the new birth and so on. Then I sinned, disobeyed God and I could no longer feel inside I had any faith. It was like my heart had become a stone. At this life crisis I met my Lutheran friend who told me it was not about having faith inside, but looking at the cross of Christ. He said salvation wasn't about me at all, but all about Christ, that he had borne my sins. So I changed my focus from looking at myself for faith, to trusting in Christ, what he had done for me. It gave me great comfort in this time of despair. One day at church, Jesus gave me faith back to my heart, but the lessoned was learned to look at Christ, not myself.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Sort of a mutual "imputation," of our sin to Christ (2 Corinthians 5:21) and his righteousness to us (Romans 1:17, Romans 3:21-24).

For some reason, I am content to think of it all in the terms in which it is revealed to us in Scripture, including the creation account.

If it all isn't actually as it is revealed, then I am persuaded the way it is revealed is the way God would have me think of it now, and that is fine with me.
I can wait until he gives me to know otherwise.

I love that! Well put!

 

[misput]

Unknown. I'm pretty sure it has nothing to do with an after-death repentance. But I can't prove that.

It certainly does not have anything to do with after death repentance. I am surprised you say it is unknown. Most refer to it as part of the apostles creed. Surely you have an opinion, being a teacher.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Is it really "revealed" if no one gets it. . .particularly so since Paul makes it the condition for the second coming?

I should think so, but.... I've been wrong before. And so has the news.