What is wrong with Calvinism ?

[Clare73]

Hm, Jesus got a glorified body after his resurrection. So I believe we will have something similar to that in the coming kingdom.

We will have exactly that, a glorified body--free of sin, of its damage and of mortality.

The one and only eternal kingdom of God is now (Luke 11:20; Daniel 2:44*; Ephesians 2:6; 1 Peter 2:5, 9), it is spiritual--invisible and within (Luke 17:20-21) the hearts where God reigns and rules.
Authoritative NT apostolic teaching presents no other kingdom of God.


* "in the time of those kings;" i.e., the Roman empire (2:40-43), which conquered the Greek empire (2:39, 8:21).
The Messianic kingdom was set up during the past Roman empire, at the first coming of Christ (Matthew 12:28), and it never ends, it simply moves to eternity at the end of time.

 

[zoidar]

We will have exactly that, a glorified body, free of sin, of its damage and of mortality.

The one and only eternal kingdom of God is now (Luke 11:20; Daniel 2:44*; Ephesians 2:6; 1 Peter 2:5, 9), it is spiritual--invisible and within (Luke 17:20-21) the hearts where God reigns and rules.
Authoritative NT apostolic teaching presents no other kingdom of God.


* "in the time of those kings;" i.e., the Roman empire (2:40-43), which conquered the Greek empire (2:39, 8:21).
The Messianic kingdom was set up during the past Roman empire, at the first coming of Christ (Matthew 12:28), and it never ends, it simply moves to eternity at the end of time.

Now but not yet.

 

[Clare73]

Now but not yet.

Yes, the eternal is not yet.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I don't think you are saying the dwelling place of God--the church, the body of Christ, is a brick and mortar structure, are you?

The structure is figurative of the body of Christ, the church, right?

Not what we know here, the structure, no. But I do think, though, like I have tried to say so every time, that I can't teach it as doctrine, that the structure Revelation refers to as the New Jerusalem is in fact the Elect. When Christ said he goes "to prepare a place for" us, I think he went there and is preparing us.

The structure here is AT BEST figurative of the body of Christ. I tend to think it is hardly that, though I know there were attempts to make it as beautiful as possible, for like reasons as God making his Dwelling Place perfect and beautiful. Specially, though, I consider the Tabernacle and Temple as figurative. They symbolized so much of the Gospel, and I think when we are in Heaven we will see the Gospel, the Word of God, the love of God, in person. But these are nearly meaningless coming from my mind.

God did dwell with them in the Tabernacle, it was not just figurative (Exodus 40:34-38; Leviticus 1:1), which was the reason for the Day of Atonement, to cleanse the holy things of their defilement from being among a sinful people (Leviticus 16:16).

Agreed. Totally.

That was the Holy of Holies (Most Holy Place), where the Ark and the presence of God resided.

Okay, so you are saying that God's actual dwelling with them in the Tabernacle was a type of his indwelling Holy Spirit in the New Covenant.

Have I got it straight now?

That is somewhat how it seems to me; we know the terminology, "indwelling of (or by) the Holy Spirit", and know it refers to the Spirit of God having 'taken up residence' within us. I don't like to commit myself to the use of "type" there, until I see it represented as such in Scripture's mention. Let's just say there is a strong likeness.

An added comment to tack onto the discussion of current church buildings as 'figurative', (or whatever), of the New Jerusalem. Here, present day, there is a huge difference between the structure and the Elect that worship God there, two or more gathered. It is obvious that the structure is only a place. I think in Heaven we will see both as one. And this will also include God himself as our place of rest.

 

[Mark Quayle]

For those without preconceptions: The obvious meaning of "all men" and "all" in 1 Timothy 2:1-6 is "all without exception". There is nothing in the way 1 Timothy 2:1-6 is written or in the entire letter to think otherwise. To those with Calvinist preconceptions, as an exercise try reading the passage as if you knew nothing about Calvinism.

After having answered you on this, it occurs to me to say that there really is nobody without preconceptions; although their preconceptions may not be specific to this subject, they impinge on this subject. A reader may not have ever heard of this subject, but he has preconceptions none-the-less, perhaps, for example, that life is about him. THAT will make a difference how he reads that verse.

Also, even aside from the fact that everyone has preconceptions, the fact that a bare reading, or 'innocent' view of, or whatever other terminology you may want to put there to make a point —such a view is not the standard for truth or accuracy, nor for understanding, wisdom and maturity.

 

[Mark Quayle]

The Tabernacle was an extremely rich depiction of Christ and much more. I read a book years ago I (wish I could remember the name/author). Of course, if u are an expert interpreter of scripture u probably don't need any guidance in understanding. I will try to look up the Author anyway.

Is the sarcasm really necessary?

 

[Mark Quayle]

The Tabernacle was an extremely rich depiction of Christ and much more. I read a book years ago I (wish I could remember the name/author). Of course, if u are an expert interpreter of scripture u probably don't need any guidance in understanding. I will try to look up the Author anyway.

Nobody is expert. Everyone needs guidance.

 

[Clare73]

Not what we know here, the structure, no. But I do think, though, like I have tried to say so every time, that I can't teach it as doctrine, that the structure Revelation refers to as the New Jerusalem is in fact the Elect. When Christ said he goes "to prepare a place for" us, I think he went there and is preparing us.

The New Jerusalem is the Bride--the elect, and we know he is preparing a Bride for his Son, who is likewise the Father's own personal inheritance and treasure.

The structure here is AT BEST figurative of the body of Christ. I tend to think it is hardly that, though I know there were attempts to make it as beautiful as possible, for like reasons as God making his Dwelling Place perfect and beautiful. Specially, though, I consider the Tabernacle and Temple as figurative. They symbolized so much of the Gospel, and I think when we are in Heaven we will see the Gospel, the Word of God, the love of God, in person. But these are nearly meaningless coming from my mind.

I'm thinking there won't be any "structure," just angels, saints, the Son and God, the saints being the Bride, his treasured possession.

The structures are just figurative for the meaning of it all.
I've never thought the structures were anything more than figurative. . .it's prophetic riddle.

 

[John Mullally]

After having answered you on this, it occurs to me to say that there really is nobody without preconceptions; although their preconceptions may not be specific to this subject, they impinge on this subject. A reader may not have ever heard of this subject, but he has preconceptions none-the-less, perhaps, for example, that life is about him. THAT will make a difference how he reads that verse.

Also, even aside from the fact that everyone has preconceptions, the fact that a bare reading, or 'innocent' view of, or whatever other terminology you may want to put there to make a point —such a view is not the standard for truth or accuracy, nor for understanding, wisdom and maturity.

Its not just that everyone has some pre-conceptions. I see that the acceptance of Calvinist doctrines results in adding an abundance of pre-conceptions. Acceptance of Calvinist doctrines adds a strong fatalistic point-of-view to the understanding of the Bible and everything.

At an extreme fatalists, AKA determinists, believe that all events are determined by causes that have already been set in motion. That people have no control over their own destiny and that everything is predetermined. This means that people believe that they cannot do anything to change the course of their life, no matter what they do.

Fatalism can also have a negative impact on mental health, as it can lead to anxiety and depression. This is because fatalistic thinking can lead to people feeling stuck in their current situation and believing that they will never be able to improve it. I have seen a few forum threads where the OP accepts Calvinism as truth, but are depressed because they don't think God chose them as elect.

 

[misput]

Is the sarcasm really necessary?

Just a response to an attitude I have observed here. I notice u ignore the first part of my post. Seems to be a habit of some.

 

[misput]

Nobody is expert. Everyone needs guidance.

Not according to some.

 

[misput]

Not what we know here, the structure, no. But I do think, though, like I have tried to say so every time, that I can't teach it as doctrine, that the structure Revelation refers to as the New Jerusalem is in fact the Elect. When Christ said he goes "to prepare a place for" us, I think he went there and is preparing us.

The structure here is AT BEST figurative of the body of Christ. I tend to think it is hardly that, though I know there were attempts to make it as beautiful as possible, for like reasons as God making his Dwelling Place perfect and beautiful. Specially, though, I consider the Tabernacle and Temple as figurative. They symbolized so much of the Gospel, and I think when we are in Heaven we will see the Gospel, the Word of God, the love of God, in person. But these are nearly meaningless coming from my mind.
That is somewhat how it seems to me; we know the terminology, "indwelling of (or by) the Holy Spirit", and know it refers to the Spirit of God having 'taken up residence' within us. I don't like to commit myself to the use of "type" there, until I see it represented as such in Scripture's mention. Let's just say there is a strong likeness.

An added comment to tack onto the discussion of current church buildings as 'figurative', (or whatever), of the New Jerusalem. Here, present day, there is a huge difference between the structure and the Elect that worship God there, two or more gathered. It is obvious that the structure is only a place. I think in Heaven we will see both as one. And this will also include God himself as our place of rest.

Here is something else you might believe but will not teach: When Jesus said He goes "to prepare a place for" us, He was talking about the cross. This is where we all must go to be with Him and He had told them this several times and that He was God. Read John 14 with this in mind and see what you think.

 

[Mark Quayle]

The New Jerusalem is the Bride--the elect, and we know he is preparing a Bride for his Son, who is likewise the Father's own personal inheritance and treasure.

I'm thinking there won't be any "structure," just angels, saints, the Son and God, the saints being the Bride, his treasured possession.

The structures are just figurative for the meaning of it all.
I've never thought the structures were anything more than figurative. . .it's prophetic riddle.

I have a tendency to consider some things more literal than what we can understand at present. I think there is a structure, but it is not built with human hands, nor is it built with building materials as we conceive of them, but it is surely the Dwelling Place of God. To me, to call it figurative assumes too much of an understanding of what it will be like, when we surely do not understand what it will be like, for all the prophetic descriptions we get as to its particulars, figurative or otherwise.

I certainly do look forward to laughing with you when we look upon the facts there!

 

[Fervent]

Its not just that everyone has some pre-conceptions. I see that the acceptance of Calvinist doctrines results in adding an abundance of pre-conceptions. Acceptance of Calvinist doctrines adds a strong fatalistic point-of-view to the understanding of the Bible and everything.

At an extreme fatalists, AKA determinists, believe that all events are determined by causes that have already been set in motion. That people have no control over their own destiny and that everything is predetermined. This means that people believe that they cannot do anything to change the course of their life, no matter what they do.

Fatalism can also have a negative impact on mental health, as it can lead to anxiety and depression. This is because fatalistic thinking can lead to people feeling stuck in their current situation and believing that they will never be able to improve it. I have seen a few forum threads where the OP accepts Calvinism as truth, but are depressed because they don't think God chose them as elect.

Any position that ends in fatalism isn't worth considering, after all if it's true we have no power to change what we think about it.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Its not just that everyone has some pre-conceptions. I see that the acceptance of Calvinist doctrines results in adding an abundance of pre-conceptions. Acceptance of Calvinist doctrines adds a strong fatalistic point-of-view to the understanding of the Bible and everything.

At an extreme fatalists, AKA determinists, believe that all events are determined by causes that have already been set in motion. That people have no control over their own destiny and that everything is predetermined. This means that people believe that they cannot do anything to change the course of their life, no matter what they do.

Fatalism can also have a negative impact on mental health, as it can lead to anxiety and depression. This is because fatalistic thinking can lead to people feeling stuck in their current situation and believing that they will never be able to improve it. I have seen a few forum threads where the OP accepts Calvinism as truth, but are depressed because they don't think God chose them as elect.

Yet, (I hope), you do not think how people react or think as relevant to the accuracy of doctrine. Yet, as to that, I could probably show you one for one, those who are discouraged, fearful, confused and dismayed by the notion that it is their decision for Christ that made all the difference, when their own sin appears before them unconquerable. How can they believe their own sincerity when they repent, or make promises to God? It's enough to drive one crazy, or to abandon the faith altogether!

Acceptance, and understanding, of Calvinist doctrines leads one to continue with the One who loves us so much, and who took such horrific sin upon himself, because of the secure knowledge that he will indeed accomplish all he set out to do. And that he is doing it for his own sake, is a blessing beyond description for his people. This, not because the doctrines are Calvinist, but because they are Biblical, not to mention unassailable logically.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Just a response to an attitude I have observed here. I notice u ignore the first part of my post. Seems to be a habit of some.

No, matter of fact, I did not ignore it, but answered it in another post.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Here is something else you might believe but will not teach: When Jesus said He goes "to prepare a place for" us, He was talking about the cross. This is where we all must go to be with Him and He had told them this several times and that He was God. Read John 14 with this in mind and see what you think.

Interesting thought. I admit I had not thought about this, to study the notion, in years. Nice! Thanks.

Do you think it can be both, or are they mutually exclusive?

 

[Mark Quayle]

Here is something else you might believe but will not teach: When Jesus said He goes "to prepare a place for" us, He was talking about the cross. This is where we all must go to be with Him and He had told them this several times and that He was God. Read John 14 with this in mind and see what you think.

Are you preterist in your eschatology?

 

[Mark Quayle]

Any position that ends in fatalism isn't worth considering, after all if it's true we have no power to change what we think about it.

Ha! Nice.

Yet our thinking does change, just as God planned for it to do! If that is not fatalism, oh well.... So Calvinism doesn't end in fatalism —at least, not the brand of fatalism you describe.

Friend of mine says, "Here is how I think of Calvinism: Slam the door on my finger, 'Well, I'm glad that's over with!'" Funny, though, that Calvinists don't think of it that way! They don't think of fatalism. They think of providence.

 

[Fervent]

Ha! Nice.

Yet our thinking does change, just as God planned for it to do! If that is not fatalism, oh well.... So Calvinism doesn't end in fatalism —at least, not the brand of fatalism you describe.

Friend of mine says, "Here is how I think of Calvinism: Slam the door on my finger, 'Well, I'm glad that's over with!'" Funny, though, that Calvinists don't think of it that way! They don't think of fatalism. They think of providence.

Exactly why I reject Calvinism. Either
a)Calvinism is false as my reason, my studies of the Scripture, and my base experience tell me.

of

b) Calvinism is true and God has willed that I not believe it so it is outside my power to believe.

No need to even bother considering it further.