• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

What is wrong with Calvinism ?

Mark Quayle

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist
Site Supporter
May 28, 2018
14,282
6,366
69
Pennsylvania
✟948,521.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Widowed
Speaking of the mark of the beast, how do you interpret that?
I don't, other than to guess that it has to be something that involves self-importance, or self-preservation involving denial of God. I can't see it happening to anyone "by accident", or in innocence.
 
Upvote 0

zoidar

loves Jesus the Christ! ✝️
Site Supporter
Sep 18, 2010
7,500
2,677
✟1,042,807.00
Country
Sweden
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
I believe it can happen at any time, because I have been wrong about many other things. As for the man of lawlessness, what does it mean —is it not possible that he has already been revealed and most did not realize it as such? But yes, I agree with the sequence as you show it.

Is it really "revealed" if no one gets it. . .particularly so since Paul makes it the condition for the second coming?

There was this guru in India that said he came to fulfill what Jesus started. I don't know if his movement still exists, but his "spiritual blessings" were given all over the world. He was certrainly an antichrist (I even thought at the time it might be him), but when the antichrist comes, I think it will be quite obvious to true believers.
 
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
29,263
7,552
North Carolina
✟345,723.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
There was this guru in India that said he came to fulfill what Jesus started. I don't know if his movement still exists, but his "spiritual blessings" were given all over the world. He was certrainly an antichrist, but when the antichrist comes, I think it will be quite obvious to true believers.
That's what I'm thinking, also. . .not to mention the spirit of the anti-Christ which is in the world, as well as many other anti-christs.
 
Upvote 0

misput

JimD
Sep 5, 2018
1,026
384
86
Pacific, Mo.
✟173,825.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I don't, other than to guess that it has to be something that involves self-importance, or self-preservation involving denial of God. I can't see it happening to anyone "by accident", or in innocence.
Do you think it could be a reference to the fleshly nature which is very much like a beast?
 
Upvote 0

Mark Quayle

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist
Site Supporter
May 28, 2018
14,282
6,366
69
Pennsylvania
✟948,521.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Widowed
It certainly does not have anything to do with after death repentance. I am surprised you say it is unknown. Most refer to it as part of the apostles creed. Surely you have an opinion, being a teacher.
I have some opinions and have seen some vague parallels or applications in scripture, but I don't see anything firm to hold to other than the mere fact of it. I have more conjecture than even opinion. I don't know.

The apostles' creed doesn't even mention it specifically, but that he descended into hell, (or "to the dead") depending on what version is used. But the apostles' creed isn't Scripture. What Scripture mentions seems related to the judging of the living and the dead, which in my opinion is referring (if not also to other dead) to those dead to whom he preached.

The idea of 'proclaiming' rather than 'preaching' seems to me to allow some relevance to all things being restored to God.

What are your thoughts on it?
 
Upvote 0

Mark Quayle

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist
Site Supporter
May 28, 2018
14,282
6,366
69
Pennsylvania
✟948,521.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Widowed
Do you think it could be a reference to the fleshly nature which is very much like a beast?
I doubt it, though it will involve that, certainly.
 
Upvote 0

misput

JimD
Sep 5, 2018
1,026
384
86
Pacific, Mo.
✟173,825.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
That's what I'm thinking, also. . .not to mention the spirit of the anti-Christ which is in the world, as well as many other anti-christs.
1Jo 2:18 ¶ Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1Jo 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1Jo 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
2Jo 1:7 ¶ For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
 
Upvote 0

zoidar

loves Jesus the Christ! ✝️
Site Supporter
Sep 18, 2010
7,500
2,677
✟1,042,807.00
Country
Sweden
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
1Jo 2:18 ¶ Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1Jo 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1Jo 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
2Jo 1:7 ¶ For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour.
— 1 John 2:18
 
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
29,263
7,552
North Carolina
✟345,723.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour.
— 1 John 2:18
A 2000-year-old "last hour". . .for a day is as a thousand years.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Mark Quayle
Upvote 0

misput

JimD
Sep 5, 2018
1,026
384
86
Pacific, Mo.
✟173,825.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I have some opinions and have seen some vague parallels or applications in scripture, but I don't see anything firm to hold to other than the mere fact of it. I have more conjecture than even opinion. I don't know.

The apostles' creed doesn't even mention it specifically, but that he descended into hell, (or "to the dead") depending on what version is used. But the apostles' creed isn't Scripture. What Scripture mentions seems related to the judging of the living and the dead, which in my opinion is referring (if not also to other dead) to those dead to whom he preached.

The idea of 'proclaiming' rather than 'preaching' seems to me to allow some relevance to all things being restored to God.

What are your thoughts on it?
About the same as yours.
 
Upvote 0

SkyWriting

The Librarian
Site Supporter
Jan 10, 2010
37,281
8,501
Milwaukee
✟411,038.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I meant, you said them twice in answer to two different posts of mine, as if repeating them after I asked for you to explain their relevance, was the explanation of the relevance.
You don't really need my opinions. Aw shucks.
 
  • Haha
Reactions: Mark Quayle
Upvote 0

Mark Quayle

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist
Site Supporter
May 28, 2018
14,282
6,366
69
Pennsylvania
✟948,521.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Widowed
You don't really need my opinions. Aw shucks.
Haha! No, I'm saying I don't know what your opinion is, nor what your opinion is about. All I saw was a few Bible verses, that at first (and second) read did not seem relevant to the thread nor the post to which they were posted in response.
 
Upvote 0

SkyWriting

The Librarian
Site Supporter
Jan 10, 2010
37,281
8,501
Milwaukee
✟411,038.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Haha! No, I'm saying I don't know what your opinion is, nor what your opinion is about. All I saw was a few Bible verses, that at first (and second) read did not seem relevant to the thread nor the post to which they were posted in response.
If the passages did not directly address, then sorry. I did my best.
 
  • Friendly
Reactions: Mark Quayle
Upvote 0

Jesus is YHWH

my Lord and my God !
Site Supporter
Dec 15, 2011
3,496
1,727
✟389,997.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
That's what I'm thinking, also. . .not to mention the spirit of the anti-Christ which is in the world, as well as many other anti-christs.
Yes they were in Johns day as per 1 John 4:1-4 and 2 John 1:7
 
Upvote 0

Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president
Site Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
29,117
6,145
EST
✟1,123,523.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
There was this guru in India that said he came to fulfill what Jesus started. I don't know if his movement still exists, but his "spiritual blessings" were given all over the world. He was certrainly an antichrist (I even thought at the time it might be him), but when the antichrist comes, I think it will be quite obvious to true believers.
Maharishi Mahesh Yogi
 
  • Prayers
Reactions: Jesus is YHWH
Upvote 0

zoidar

loves Jesus the Christ! ✝️
Site Supporter
Sep 18, 2010
7,500
2,677
✟1,042,807.00
Country
Sweden
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ. No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.
— John 1:17-18

It is through Jesus we know God the Father.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

zoidar

loves Jesus the Christ! ✝️
Site Supporter
Sep 18, 2010
7,500
2,677
✟1,042,807.00
Country
Sweden
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
I'm still not sure if you are discarding this: "How can one be responsible without actual willed choice?", for this: "How can one be responsible without uncaused free will?"

I don't know if this is the best thing to bring up again. But "willed choice" doesn't make you responsible. It has to be "free will choice", and by free will, I mean uncaused from prior event. You are not responsible just by being able to choose what you will, if what you will has been caused by God.

If you feel we are done discussing this, then no problem. Maybe I shouldn't have opened the lid again...
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Jesus is YHWH

my Lord and my God !
Site Supporter
Dec 15, 2011
3,496
1,727
✟389,997.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
That's what I'm thinking, also. . .not to mention the spirit of the anti-Christ which is in the world, as well as many other anti-christs.

Here is my view on the teaching of the spirit of antichrist and what that means. It has to do with the 2 natures in Christ, that He is fully God and remains fully man, in the flesh. I have quoted several renown Greek scholars that concur.

The number one test to distinguish truth for error and the Spirit of God from that of the spirit of antichrist is the confession of our divine Lord Jesus Christ. Every spirit that confesses Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God. There is one thing the spirit of antichrist will deny and that is they will deny the deity of Jesus Christ. They will deny God in human flesh. They will always deny the Incarnation which was permanent. When a person affirms that Jesus Christ is God in flesh that equates to divine truth. Every spirit that confesses meaning to continually confess or agrees with saying the same thing as John declares in his writings is from God. This is the person who is taught by the Spirit of God according to John. The first test that you want to have for any teacher is their Christology, check out what they say about Christ. This becomes a litmus test that is very easy to spot among the false teachers. If you have somebody who denies the deity of Christ you have a clear indication they are of the spirit of antichrist.

If we go back to the beginning of 1 John, we read that which we he beheld, and actually touched concerning the Word of life. That is a term expressing the very deity of Christ. Christ emanates from God as His living Word. He was with the Father in the beginning in 1:2. Jesus was One with the Father sharing the same essence with the Father in heaven with Him before the foundation of the world. John says He was manifested to us. John's language then starts out with the fact that Jesus Christ emanates from God as the very living Word of God. Jesus is the living Word of God,the One John says that was from the beginning that we heard, we saw and we touched. Jesus the Word of life was the eternal One who was with the Father prior to His Incarnation and was then manifested to us in the flesh that we could see and hear and touch according to John. Therefore, we can clearly see Jesus is the very Word of God Incarnate. He is the eternal life who became flesh. The Word who was with God, the Word who was God, was the One who John says was manifested to us. This is how we can tell the spirit of truth from the spirit of antichrist. Can you confess Jesus is God Incarnate?

1 John 4:2
By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God;

2 John 7
For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist.


Erchomenon the present participle in 2 John 7



Alford- the present tense is timeless(pg 274 RNTC on 2 John)

Brooke- the Incarnation is not only an event in history, it is an abiding truth(pg 274 RNTC on 2 John)

Stott- the two natures manhood and Godhood were united already at His birth, never to be divided. In 1 John 4:2 and here in 2 John 7 emphasizes this permanent union of the natures in the One Person ( TNTC pages 209-210) He who denies the Incarnation is not just a deceiver and an antichrist but “the deceiver and the antichrist”. There is in this heresy a double affront: it opposes Christ and deceives men.(stott TNCT page 210)

Marshall- the use of the present and perfect tenses becomes significant if the point is that Jesus Christ had come and still existed “in flesh”. For him(John) it was axiomatic that there had been a true Incarnation, that the word became flesh and remained flesh. It is a point that receives much stress in 1 John 2:18-28;4:1-6;5:5-8. (NICNT pages 70-71)

Smalley- the present tense emphasizes the permanent union of the human and Divine natures in Jesus. Gods self disclosure in Jesus took place at a particular moment in history , but it has continuing effects in the present and into the future(Word Biblical Commentary page 317)

Nicoll- the continuous manifestation of the Incarnate Christ(Expositors Greek Testament Volume 5 page 202)

Akin- Much has been made of the fact that John uses the present tense in this Christological confession. Literally the verse reads, “Jesus Christ coming in flesh.” “Coming” is a present active participle. This stands out in remarkable contrast to the affirmation of 1 John 4:2, where the text states that “Jesus Christ has [emphasis mine] come in the flesh.” There the perfect active participle is used. The key, it seems, is to discover what John is affirming. Here in 2 John the emphasis falls on the abiding reality of the incarnation. First John 4:2 teaches that the Christ, the Father’s Son (v. 3), has come in the flesh. Second John affirms that the wedding of deity and humanity has an abiding reality (cf. 1 Tim 2:5). The ontological and essential nature of the incarnation that would receive eloquent expression one thousand years later in the writing of St. Anselm (1033–1109) in his classic Cur Deus Homo is already present in seed form in the tiny and neglected letter of 2 John.

Lenski- In 1 John 4:2 we have ἐν σαρκὶ ἐληλυθότα, the perfect participle, “as having come in flesh” (incarnate, John 1:14); here we have ἐρχόμενον ἐν σαρκί, “as coming in flesh,” although the participle is present in form it is really timeless.of Christ as "still being manifested." See the note at 1 John 3:5. In 1 John 4:2 we have the manifestation treated as a past fact by the perfect tense, ‎eleeluthota ‎"has come

Robertson- That Jesus Christ cometh in the flesh Ieesoun ‎‎Christon ‎‎erchomenon ‎‎en ‎‎sarki‎. "Jesus Christ coming in the flesh." Present middle participle of ‎erchomai treating the Incarnation as a continuing fact which the Docetic Gnostics flatly denied. In 1 John 4:2 we have ‎eleeluthota ‎(perfect active participle) in this same construction with ‎homologeoo‎, because there the reference is to the definite historical fact of the Incarnation.

Vincent- Is come erchomenon‎. Wrong. The verb is in the present participle, "coming," which describes the manhood

hope this helps !!!
 
  • Informative
Reactions: RickReads
Upvote 0

RickReads

Well-Known Member
Sep 27, 2020
3,433
1,068
60
richmond
✟72,331.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Divorced
Here is my view on the teaching of the spirit of antichrist and what that means. It has to do with the 2 natures in Christ, that He is fully God and remains fully man, in the flesh. I have quoted several renown Greek scholars that concur.

The number one test to distinguish truth for error and the Spirit of God from that of the spirit of antichrist is the confession of our divine Lord Jesus Christ. Every spirit that confesses Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God. There is one thing the spirit of antichrist will deny and that is they will deny the deity of Jesus Christ. They will deny God in human flesh. They will always deny the Incarnation which was permanent. When a person affirms that Jesus Christ is God in flesh that equates to divine truth. Every spirit that confesses meaning to continually confess or agrees with saying the same thing as John declares in his writings is from God. This is the person who is taught by the Spirit of God according to John. The first test that you want to have for any teacher is their Christology, check out what they say about Christ. This becomes a litmus test that is very easy to spot among the false teachers. If you have somebody who denies the deity of Christ you have a clear indication they are of the spirit of antichrist.

If we go back to the beginning of 1 John, we read that which we he beheld, and actually touched concerning the Word of life. That is a term expressing the very deity of Christ. Christ emanates from God as His living Word. He was with the Father in the beginning in 1:2. Jesus was One with the Father sharing the same essence with the Father in heaven with Him before the foundation of the world. John says He was manifested to us. John's language then starts out with the fact that Jesus Christ emanates from God as the very living Word of God. Jesus is the living Word of God,the One John says that was from the beginning that we heard, we saw and we touched. Jesus the Word of life was the eternal One who was with the Father prior to His Incarnation and was then manifested to us in the flesh that we could see and hear and touch according to John. Therefore, we can clearly see Jesus is the very Word of God Incarnate. He is the eternal life who became flesh. The Word who was with God, the Word who was God, was the One who John says was manifested to us. This is how we can tell the spirit of truth from the spirit of antichrist. Can you confess Jesus is God Incarnate?

1 John 4:2
By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God;

2 John 7
For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist.


Erchomenon the present participle in 2 John 7



Alford- the present tense is timeless(pg 274 RNTC on 2 John)

Brooke- the Incarnation is not only an event in history, it is an abiding truth(pg 274 RNTC on 2 John)

Stott- the two natures manhood and Godhood were united already at His birth, never to be divided. In 1 John 4:2 and here in 2 John 7 emphasizes this permanent union of the natures in the One Person ( TNTC pages 209-210) He who denies the Incarnation is not just a deceiver and an antichrist but “the deceiver and the antichrist”. There is in this heresy a double affront: it opposes Christ and deceives men.(stott TNCT page 210)

Marshall- the use of the present and perfect tenses becomes significant if the point is that Jesus Christ had come and still existed “in flesh”. For him(John) it was axiomatic that there had been a true Incarnation, that the word became flesh and remained flesh. It is a point that receives much stress in 1 John 2:18-28;4:1-6;5:5-8. (NICNT pages 70-71)

Smalley- the present tense emphasizes the permanent union of the human and Divine natures in Jesus. Gods self disclosure in Jesus took place at a particular moment in history , but it has continuing effects in the present and into the future(Word Biblical Commentary page 317)

Nicoll- the continuous manifestation of the Incarnate Christ(Expositors Greek Testament Volume 5 page 202)

Akin- Much has been made of the fact that John uses the present tense in this Christological confession. Literally the verse reads, “Jesus Christ coming in flesh.” “Coming” is a present active participle. This stands out in remarkable contrast to the affirmation of 1 John 4:2, where the text states that “Jesus Christ has [emphasis mine] come in the flesh.” There the perfect active participle is used. The key, it seems, is to discover what John is affirming. Here in 2 John the emphasis falls on the abiding reality of the incarnation. First John 4:2 teaches that the Christ, the Father’s Son (v. 3), has come in the flesh. Second John affirms that the wedding of deity and humanity has an abiding reality (cf. 1 Tim 2:5). The ontological and essential nature of the incarnation that would receive eloquent expression one thousand years later in the writing of St. Anselm (1033–1109) in his classic Cur Deus Homo is already present in seed form in the tiny and neglected letter of 2 John.

Lenski- In 1 John 4:2 we have ἐν σαρκὶ ἐληλυθότα, the perfect participle, “as having come in flesh” (incarnate, John 1:14); here we have ἐρχόμενον ἐν σαρκί, “as coming in flesh,” although the participle is present in form it is really timeless.of Christ as "still being manifested." See the note at 1 John 3:5. In 1 John 4:2 we have the manifestation treated as a past fact by the perfect tense, ‎eleeluthota ‎"has come

Robertson- That Jesus Christ cometh in the flesh Ieesoun ‎‎Christon ‎‎erchomenon ‎‎en ‎‎sarki‎. "Jesus Christ coming in the flesh." Present middle participle of ‎erchomai treating the Incarnation as a continuing fact which the Docetic Gnostics flatly denied. In 1 John 4:2 we have ‎eleeluthota ‎(perfect active participle) in this same construction with ‎homologeoo‎, because there the reference is to the definite historical fact of the Incarnation.

Vincent- Is come erchomenon‎. Wrong. The verb is in the present participle, "coming," which describes the manhood

hope this helps !!!

Something I find disturbing (since the mark of the beast has been brought up) is this new tattooing technology that is quickly advancing. The tech exists right now to put an invisible tattoo on you that will contain your medical info, and personal info, and serve as your debit/credit card.

I even read that they will place it on your forearm and/or your forehead. It fits the Biblical description of the mark perfectly and the world is poised to go cashless real soon.

Pretty ominous in my opinion.
 
Upvote 0