What is "true" Islam?

[MorkandMindy]

Greetings,

I can see that with the media spewing out the stuff it does, always calling for war for the very very best of reasons, 'humanitarian air strikes' for example,

that the question of which is worse, Islam (which variety) or Christianity (which variety) could seem the obvious question.


But it isn't just a simple two-way question. The religious liberals have noted that it is the religious conservatives who started the fighting.

G W Bush the most religious President the US has ever had, and A Blair, although High Church then, now Catholic, but also a committed Christian, attacking, the secular but mostly Islamic state of Iraq

in retaliation for an attack by Wahhabi Muslims mainly from the 100% Islamic state of Saudi Arabia where atheism is a capital offense, but we wouldn't fight them because they are our allies.

The liberals would blame all the fundamentalist religious groups; our own Christian led government doing Shock and Awe and things, and Zionists and Wahhabi Muslims, for the problems and it would all be OK if only everyone could be liberal.

 

[MorkandMindy]

And this is where things get difficult because the fourth side is the atheists who then comment that with the battles back and forth between the Eastern Christians and Western Christians and between the Christian barons, and finally the Pope declaring a religious war (a Jihad) against the Muslims which became the Crusades,

the atheists then bemoan how many people have been killed in the name of religion.

I don't think that's a fair criticism though the lesser charge of how ineffective the religions of the book have been at reducing or preventing wars is likely to stick. Consider for example WWI where the British, predominantly Anglican which is part Lutheran with some Catholicism mixed in various proportions, fought the Germans who were mostly Lutheran though some were Catholic. And priests on both sides assured their soldiers that if they died they would go to Heaven.

 

[MorkandMindy]

That didn't cause the war but it may have made it worse and certainly did nothing to stop it.

So have Christians and Muslims, or Muslims and Muslims also, been killing each other for religious reasons in the Middle East for a thousand years?

Apart from the Crusades it was quieter than Europe until oil was discovered, and there's been lots of conflict there ever since.

 

[Robban]

And this is where things get difficult because the fourth side is the atheists who then comment that with the battles back and forth between the Eastern Christians and Western Christians and between the Christian barons, and finally the Pope declaring a religious war (a Jihad) against the Muslims which became the Crusades,

the atheists then bemoan how many people have been killed in the name of religion.

I don't think that's a fair criticism though the lesser charge of how ineffective the religions of the book have been at reducing or preventing wars is likely to stick. Consider for example WWI where the British, predominantly Anglican which is part Lutheran with some Catholicism mixed in various proportions, fought the Germans who were mostly Lutheran though some were Catholic. And priests on both sides assured their soldiers that if they died they would go to Heaven.

All religion/s are similar to one,s own backside, divided.

These divisions serve a purpose, to create conflict and war.

Often by those who do not belong to whichever religion is in question at the time,

Heinrich Himmler admired Islam, he saw it as a very practical and admirable religion for soldiers.

Or as something that would serve his purpose.

Where do these divisions come from?

Tip of the day,

James 4,

For those who have forgotten,
time to get out your dusty, rusty, trusty Bible,
and take a look.

 

[Episaw]

THE TRUTH ABOUT ISLAM....

In what kind of world is it normal for whole villages to be burned and many people murdered on a regular basis? The world of Northern Nigeria.

Todd Nettleton of Voice of the Martyrs spoke to us about one of the last violent attacks to bring in the New Year.

"There was an attack in sort of the Eastern part of Nigeria. Allegedly a group of Fulani Muslim herdsmen came into a village, attacked a Christian village, burned the church, burned the home of the pastor and killed 10 people in the village. Sadly, it's just another day in Nigeria."

In the constant violence and conflict, Nettleton says it's just another attack, another village.

Nettleton says these conflicts between the Fulani herdsmen and Christians are both due to religious tension and the battle for land. It's a fight between Christians and Muslims, and combat between herdsmen and farmers.

This particular attack took place in the Sabon Gida Shagogo village on Dec. 17, according to Morning Star News. They report 100 herdsmen invaded the village at 4 AM.

 

[Inkfingers]

What is the true Islam?

I would hazard a guess that it is the Islam that made Saladin, the Ottoman Empire, Saudi, Pakistan, Iran, the Fatimids, the Moguls, the Rashidun Caliphate, the Umayyads, and the Abbasids.

I would hazard a guess also that it is the Islam that says women are second-class witnesses in court, or the sterile sex slaves of men in the Islamic vision of Paradise.

 

[ebia]

I would hazard a guess also that it is the Islam that says women are second-class witnesses in court, or the sterile sex slaves of men in the Islamic vision of Paradise.

Or the Islam that elected the three largest islamic countries female heads of state, something the world's largest Christian country had yet to achieve.

 

[Inkfingers]

Or the Islam that elected the three largest islamic countries female heads of state, something the world's largest Christian country had yet to achieve.

I take it that you mean Pakistan, Indonesia and Bangladesh? Those are protected upper-class women. Take a look at how the rank and file are treated. And then at how in Islam women are second-class citizens in life, and sterile sex-slaves in "paradise".

And the US we are repeatedly told is not actually a Christian country in its constitution, whilst my own country (with an Established Church) has had a female head of state since the 50s.

So my point still stands. True Islam is the Islam of the numerous Caliphates. It is also the ruling power in countries that will imprison or execute homosexuals (liberals would do well to remember that next time they are defending Islam whist calling Christians "homophobic").

 

[ebia]

I take it that you mean Pakistan, Indonesia and Bangladesh? Those are protected upper-class women. Take a look at how the rank and file are treated. And then at how in Islam women are second-class citizens in life, and sterile sex-slaves in "paradise".

The point is your cherry picked measures. Much of humanity including christianity has treated women as second-class citizens for much of history; that's reflected in a lot of the OT, it's reflected in much "conservative christianity" still, and as such its still reflected in the USs politics.

So my point still stands. True Islam is the Islam of the numerous Caliphates. It is also the ruling power in countries that will imprison or execute homosexuals (liberals would do well to remember that next time they are defending Islam whist calling Christians "homophobic").

It's not long ago the the UK was locking up people for homosexuality.
Alan Turing perhaps did more to win the Second World War than any other individual, but was persecuted to his suicide.
Many Christian countries like Uganda are still at that point.

 

[Inkfingers]

The point is your cherry picked measures. Much of humanity including christianity has treated women as second-class citizens for much of history; that's reflected in a lot of the OT, it's reflected in much "conservative christianity" still, and as such its still reflected in the USs politics.

I cherry-picked nothing. Try being a woman in Iran, Pakistan, Saudi, Afghanistan, and you will get better idea of what oppression really looks like.

It's not long ago the the UK was locking up people for homosexuality.
Alan Turing perhaps did more to win the Second World War than any other individual, but was persecuted to his suicide.
Many Christian countries like Uganda are still at that point.

When was the last person executed for being homosexual in England?

The point is that Islam is not a nice religion. It is an intrinsically warlike and oppressive religion. ISIS are not the exception. They are the foundation of every Islamic empire ever.

 

[ebia]

I cherry-picked nothing. Try being a woman in Iran, Pakistan, Saudi, Afghanistan, and you will get better idea of what oppression really looks like.

I've been to NWFP, and I've got close friends, including women, from each of those except Saudi. I suspect I've got a better handle on the reality than you have.

When you compare the worst you can find in islam to the best you can find in Christian history cherry-picking is exactly what you are doing.

When was the last person executed for being homosexual in England?

So it's good to persecute people so long as you've stopped executing them.

The point is that Islam is not a nice religion.

Neither is christianity, nor pretty much any other religion, if you consistently apply the same measure in an objective manner, instead of picking the data that supports your contention.

 

[Inkfingers]

I've been to NWFP, and I've got close friends, including women, from each of those except Saudi. I suspect I've got a better handle on the reality than you have.

When you compare the worst you can find in islam to the best you can find in Christian history cherry-picking is exactly what you are doing.

I'm not comparing the worst of Islam with the best of Christianity. I'm comparing the norm of Islam with the norm of Christianity.

So it's good to persecute people so long as you've stopped executing them.

Cutting people's heads off is whole magnitudes above anything ever done here.

Neither is christianity, nor pretty much any other religion, if you consistently apply the same measure in an objective manner, instead of picking the data that supports your contention.

Rubbish. Have Gay friends? Tell them to spend 2 weeks in Iran, Pakistan or Saudi and see if they even make it back safely. These are not the rare exception in Islam, they are its norm.

 

[Dari0]

Who do Islamic people look to as a representation of someone that is right with God? That should be your answer. I'm not Muslim so I don't know, but Mohammed looks important. What is true Christianity? The gospel is Jesus dying so that people that were once dead can be saved. and the OT is the power of God and his authority of the earth, which Jews and even Muslims look to for some truths.

 

[ebia]

I'm not comparing the worst of Islam with the best of Christianity. I'm comparing the norm of Islam with the norm of Christianity.

No you aren't.

Cutting people's heads off is whole magnitudes above anything ever done here.

Beheading is worse than hanging?
Traditionally in the west has seen those the other way around.

Rubbish. Have Gay friends? Tell them to spend 2 weeks in Iran, Pakistan or Saudi

Or uganda?

 

[Inkfingers]

Beheading is worse than hanging?
Traditionally in the west has seen those the other way around.

When did England last hang someone for homosexual acts?

Or uganda?

Uganda is the exception in Christianity.

Iran, Saudi and Pakistan are the norm and origin of Islam.

 

[ebia]

When did England last hang someone for homosexual acts?

The date is irrelevant unless you are cherry picking

Uganda is the exception in Christianity.

More cherry picking

Iran, Saudi and Pakistan are the norm and origin of Islam.

More cherry picking, and factually either meaningless or wrong.

 

[ebia]

If you apply the no true Scotsman fallacy you are bound to find data that supports your contention.

 

[Inkfingers]

The date is irrelevant unless you are cherry picking


More cherry picking


More cherry picking, and factually either meaningless or wrong.

No, not cherry picking (as I have pointed out). But your denials are noted and we are unlikely to get further.

 

[Robban]

Who do Islamic people look to as a representation of someone that is right with God? That should be your answer. I'm not Muslim so I don't know, but Mohammed looks important. What is true Christianity? The gospel is Jesus dying so that people that were once dead can be saved. and the OT is the power of God and his authority of the earth, which Jews and even Muslims look to for some truths.

I know nothing of Islam, it does not bother me that much either, there are many muslims in my neighbourhood, from different countries, they seem to have diffent styles, I take the buss often and seeing past their dressing I only see people, what is strange is, exchanging a smile or a word or two treating eachother equally, sometimes it is as if I have known that person for years and years.

Maybe I just think people can call themselves what they like, I don,t give tuppence.

But one thing I,m pretty sure of, is, "................and the spirit of God was hovering over the face of the water" is the exact same today and for evermore.

 

[Bungle_Bear]

When did England last hang someone for homosexual acts?

1835

When did Christian England last persecute a homosexual to the point they commited suicide? 2014

Uganda is the exception in Christianity.

No, it isn't. Nigeria is majority Christian, they have the death penalty for homosexuality - which is a step further even than Uganda. Much of sub-Saharan Africa is majority Christian, and in most of those countries homosexuality is illegal.

Iran, Saudi and Pakistan are the norm and origin of Islam.

Given that all 3 are very different, how can they all be the norm?

Despite what you claim, you are guilty of cherry-picking. I suspect you have never experienced a true Islamic country and are simply swayed by media reports.