What is the strong delusion God will send in the end time?

Im going to add here that any opinion I have on this subject comes in consideration of me having direct experience with "ufos", "orbs" , or whatever you want to call them.

Personally, from that experience, I do believe they are demons because of the were not wanted and they are mischievous.

If you have not experienced any thing like this, then you probably would not believe it. I , however, can not deny what is in front of my own eyes.

Alfred Persson said:

I agree wholeheartedly. Too many reputable people, astronauts, military men, policemen, even the Arizona Governor etc...claim they saw them, and even physical evidence.

UFOs exist, its the interpretation of what they are that is debatable. I agree with you, they are demonic.

Click to expand...

I read a book about the whole UFO thing by Nick Pope, 'The Uninvited', one of the people at the press conferences when the UK released everything they had on UFOs. What he concluded I thought was refreshing and insightful. He compared these abduction stories to mythology like leprechauns and fairies. He tells of a young girl who was very ill and bedridden, she tells her Mom she saw a fairy, her Mom tells her the next time she sees it to invite it in the room with her. It became some kind of an imaginary, childhood friend.

It's a modern mythology and what Pope found was that the abduction stories were rarely one time events. He also describes some kind of an enhanced intelligence, unlike natural intelligence they were strangely dysfunctional.

It's a modern mythology, a kind of mystical encounter for the modern man. Reports I've heard and admittedly, they are few and far between, seem consistent with pagan mysticism. I can't say for sure they are demonic but I think it has a powerful narcotic effect spiritually, invariably these ufologist types disparage or deprecate traditional Christian theism.

But unlike many Christians, I believe Scripture allows them to be physical in our realm, if God permits which I think He will do in the end time, so that all who didn't love His truth the Bible, but took pleasure in unrighteousness, could be condemned.

Click to expand...

The Tribulation is definitely a time when you have to get off the fence.

So my faith won't be shaken if UFOs land and appear before TV cameras, to say "so and so" is the Christ predicted to come, that they were the ones who intelligently designed life on the planet and they are here to teach us how to ascend to the next evolutionary plane of existence.

Click to expand...

Ever hear of Art Bell? He had a late night call in talk show that did a lot of UFO, ghost story, psychic phenomenon type topics. The last episode I actually listened to was one of the guest hosts asking a Christian if he thought there was life on other planets, the caller answers...'well yea I guess...'. The host goes into some kind of a monologue about how these aliens are going to make an appearance and religion as we know it will be gone the next day.

I think it's subtle preparation, little more.

And that the God of the Bible doesn't exist. I'm expecting it.

Click to expand...

Very popular these days anyway.

And if that particular scenario doesn't happen, I'll still be raptured with the rest so I lost nothing.

But if you really believe angels can't be physical, then its plausible ufo aliens are actually aliens, and then its possible one's faith be shaken to the core when these begin to point to some texts of the Bible and they say, "See, there we are!" If you want a list of the Bible texts they will pervert, simply watch "Ancient Aliens" on Netflix or H2.

But watch out, their constant repetition "some ancient alien theorists believe these are actually aliens" is clearly "conditioning" (aka, brainwashing) meant to convert.

Click to expand...

I've been into the UFO thing since I was 12, I still revisit the topic from time to time, especially crop circles. It's an inexplicable curiosity, nothing more. The resurrection is our blessed hope, the redemption of the purchased price. A faith rooted and grounded in a living history, not the new age equivalent to camp fire ghost stories.

It's not brainwashing, it's what they called in the Middle Ages, leaving the hole. It was a kind of a euphemism for the quarry from which your were hewn, the idea is a to 're' 'legion' or rejoin to your source. Which is God of course. When you abandon that fundamental human need something has to fill it. Sometimes it's UFOs but it's been my experience that it can be just about anything.

Grace and peace,
Mark

Alfred Persson said in post 62:

So my faith won't be shaken if UFOs land and appear before TV cameras, to say "so and so" is the Christ predicted to come, that they were the ones who intelligently designed life on the planet and they are here to teach us how to ascend to the next evolutionary plane of existence.

Click to expand...

Regarding "that they were the ones who intelligently designed life on the planet", note that even the existence of real aliens wouldn't require that they, instead of God, created humans on this planet. For God himself could have directly created both humans on this planet and aliens on other planets (cf. John 1:3). Also, if someone were to claim that aliens created Adam (the forbear of all existing humans on this planet) instead of YHWH God, that claim would be false, for it would contradict the Bible's teaching that YHWH God himself created Adam (Genesis 2:7).

Some people feel that the Antichrist's future, one-world religion will teach that Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) is an alien who created humans on this planet. But while the Antichrist's future one-world religion will indeed be Luciferian (Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9), it will at the same time also be Gnostic, denying that Christ is in the flesh (1 John 4:3; 2 John 1:7) and utterly reviling YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:31). And it wouldn't make sense for this religion to say that Lucifer is an alien who created humans on this planet. For the reason that Gnosticism reviles YHWH is because he is the Creator of all human fleshly bodies. So it would be better for believers not to worry too much about an "alien deception", and start arming themselves against the Gnostic deception, which happened to have also been one of the main enemies of the early church.

-

Gnosticism is an ancient religious movement that says that everything material is inherently evil, while only that which is pure spirit can be good. Gnosticism teaches that all humans used to be pure spirit and dwelling in bliss from all eternity in a purely-spiritual heaven called the "Pleroma", until by some mishap humanity fell into the material universe and became trapped in fleshly bodies. Gnosticism reviles YHWH, the God of Biblical Christians, and the Creator of the material universe and of all fleshly bodies, as an evil, subordinate deity, a "Demiurge", who is keeping humans imprisoned and suffering in fleshly bodies and in the material universe.

Gnosticism became the main enemy of the early church, just as it will become the main enemy of the church during the future tribulation. For the Antichrist will be a Gnostic. He will teach the Gnostic/antichrist lie that Christ isn't in the flesh (1 John 4:3). And the Antichrist, like the Gnostics, will utterly revile YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36). The Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") will instead bring the world into the worship of Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) and himself (Revelation 13:4,8, Revelation 12:9).

-

Gnosticism has some core teachings in common with the major religions of Buddhism and Hinduism:

1. The material realm is unreal and evil. (Both Buddhism and Gnosticism got this mistaken idea, originally called "Maya", from Hinduism.)

2. People must strive to escape the material realm completely, and enter a state which is wholly non-physical (Parinirvana in Buddhism, the Pleroma in Gnosticism). Buddhism and Gnosticism got this mistaken idea, originally called "Brahman", from Hinduism.

3. The way for people to get free from their imprisonment within the material realm is through their minds attaining a certain level of enlightenment (Nirvana in Buddhism, Gnosis in Gnosticism). Buddhism and Gnosticism got this mistaken idea, originally called "Moksha", from Hinduism.

4. The way for their minds to attain this certain level of enlightenment is through following the way of the Serpent (one legend of Buddhism says that the Buddha was given the true Buddhism by the King of the Serpents; and in Gnosticism, Gnosis comes from the Christ/the Serpent). Both Buddhism and Gnosticism got this mistaken idea of the enlightening serpent, originally called "Kundalini", from Hinduism. (Regarding the serpent in Genesis 3, Gnostics see him as the good guy, just as they see YHWH as the bad guy.)

The Bible contradicts each of the 4 points above:

1. The material realm is real, and was created very good (Genesis 1:31). God himself is in the flesh (John 1:1,14, Luke 24:39) and remains wholly without sin (Hebrews 4:15). So there is nothing evil about matter in itself.

2. People must strive to attain to a resurrection (Philippians 3:11) in an immortal human body of flesh and bones, like the immortal human body of flesh and bones that Jesus Christ obtained at his resurrection (Luke 24:39, Philippians 3:21; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54, Romans 8:23-25), and in which he will remain forever as our fully-human mediator/high priest (1 Timothy 2:5, Hebrews 2:16-17, Hebrews 7:24-26). His tomb is empty (Matthew 28:6), and when he returns he will show the scars of the Crucifixion on his body (Zechariah 13:6, Zechariah 12:10-14).

3. Resurrected people who have been truly enlightened/illuminated (Ephesians 1:18, Hebrews 10:32) by Jesus Christ (John 14:6-7, John 8:32, John 3:36) will remain in the material realm (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29), ultimately living on a new earth with God (Revelation 21:1-4).

4. The Serpent, Satan/Lucifer, is the deceiver of the whole world (Revelation 12:9).

mark kennedy said in post 63:

The resurrection is our blessed hope, the redemption of the purchased price. A faith rooted and grounded in a living history, not the new age equivalent to camp fire ghost stories.

Click to expand...

Amen.

Also, regarding "the new age", New Age is a modern spiritual movement which says that everything is One, and that we are all God, we just need to realize it. This mistaken idea comes from "Advaita (Non-duality)" Vedanta Hinduism, by way of Theosophy (the founder of which used the term "New Age" in her book "The Secret Doctrine" in 1888). Unlike Gnostics, New Age adherents don't think that the material realm is evil per se. They don't want to escape this physical life, or stop reincarnating, but want to create their own amazing destinies within this physical universe (whether during their lives on this planet or after being reincarnated on some other planets), or in some other, spiritual universes, by employing their own, innate powers as God. They believe that all they have to do is think the right things, and because (as they say) "Thought Creates", whatever they think will materialize. They think that they can override physical reality as God, create their own reality around themselves, and make it whatever they want.

Also, for New Age adherents, ultimately nothing is evil: There is no such thing as sin, for everything is God. Even people who seem evil are just working through some lessons. They will eventually become tired of toying with that which is merely delaying them from manifesting themselves as the wonderful God that they are. New Age adherents believe that everyone and everything in the universe is working together, whether they consciously realize it or not, to move everything forward, to ultimately bring the entire universe (even the entire universe of universes) into a wonderful, perfect destiny for everyone and everything. This sounds good, but it's a Satanic pipe dream, so that people will feel no need to fear the eternal punishment of hell (Luke 12:5, Matthew 25:41,46, Revelation 20:10,15, Revelation 14:10-11, Mark 9:45-46), feel no need to repent from their sins (Luke 13:3) and believe in Jesus Christ of Nazareth, the only begotten (only-born) Son of God (John 14:6, John 3:16,36, Acts 4:12) and his death on the Cross for our sins and his rising from the dead on the 3rd day (1 Corinthians 15:1-4, Matthew 26:28, Romans 3:25-26).

oh some good insite in this thread.. good job..
I think it is that all the lies involved that allows for scientism.

so the lie , that says that you are like a god and can only trust your own reality , your positive confessions, the positivity of positivity and all things you can weigh and measure for yourself and that you can only trust all things that grow from between your ears.
and in this generation or two that their education had no winners, no losers, no challengers ,
no measures...... just positive of positive and Self ESTEEME and always trama drama and drama trama all ways..
That is the original lie which man sold his inheritance for.. and do and did chose it over God to keep man/himself in the center of self and all things of the belly button well analyzed and highly esteemed..

maybe it seems God is really just giving them/us yall/we/ them a bigger dose of the retro, the same retro we have brought to the world . I think he is just rubbing our proverbial nose in our proverbial "knows".
maybe like in wrestling , unless they plant their feet , he can't or won't push or pull them over and have their own weight assist you in taking them down for the count..

southcountry said:

Im going to add here that any opinion I have on this subject comes in consideration of me having direct experience with "ufos", "orbs" , or whatever you want to call them.

Personally, from that experience, I do believe they are demons because of the were not wanted and they are mischievous.

If you have not experienced any thing like this, then you probably would not believe it. I , however, can not deny what is in front of my own eyes.

Click to expand...

actually my sons thinks the priest might be an "alien" bring us "enlightment..." he had a very intense dream about it.

I have come to think that ' the image" of one of the ? ... is a like the movie Simone ( Al Pacino ) , it can say and do great wonders because it isn't real at all it is all techno . it just is the mouth piece for whoever the they is / OZ of anti. The whomever wills is that thinks they know better than God does what is good and evil for man. and it appears Oz plans to break all the most Ancients of Days most ancient covenant of free will. you see only God believes in free will. hell doesn't ! just watch... and I think Simone will say and do what ever the whomevers are ( kingdom of anti of hell and earth, spirit and flesh ) wants it to say, be or do to capture humanities will .

Alfred Persson said:

I agree wholeheartedly. Too many reputable people, astronauts, military men, policemen, even the Arizona Governor etc...claim they saw them, and even physical evidence.

Click to expand...

Saw what? Things they couldn't identify. Could have been birds, could have been airplanes, could have been anything at all, because they were, Unidentified,hence the U in UFO. You assume they were demons. That's superstition.

UFOs exist

Click to expand...

Yep, sure do. And most of them are airplanes, not demons.

the interpretation of what they are that is debatable. I agree with you, they are demonic.

Click to expand...

Which notion is made up from whole cloth, based on nothing but your own imagination.

But unlike many Christians, I believe Scripture allows them to be physical in our realm

Click to expand...

Allows what to be physical? Misidentified aircraft?

So my faith won't be shaken if UFOs land and appear before TV cameras, to say "so and so" is the Christ predicted to come

Click to expand...

Assuming "UFOs" translates to "flying saucers" here, whose faith would be challenged? Those who had none to begin with?

, that they were the ones who intelligently designed life on the planet and they are here to teach us how to ascend to the next evolutionary plane of existence.

Click to expand...

The intelligent response to such as that would be to place one's hand firmly over one's wallet and take evasive maneuvers.

But watch out, their constant repetition "some ancient alien theorists believe these are actually aliens" is clearly "conditioning" (aka, brainwashing) meant to convert.

Click to expand...

Seems to be converting a lot of Christians into believing in flying saucers, and believing in them enough to try and incorporate them into the Christian faith. Maybe all Old Nick wants is for us to contaminate our Christian faith with so much imaginary claptrap like flying saucers that it's no longer really Christian at all. That should be a scary though. No real FSs necessary. Just get everybody to believe that every time they see something in the air and don't know what it is, that it's the "power of Satan", and they'll take it all on faith without Nick ever having to turn a hand. They'll have done his sleazy work for him. Something to think about.

Jipsah said:

Saw what? Things they couldn't identify. Could have been birds, could have been airplanes, could have been anything at all, because they were, Unidentified,hence the U in UFO. You assume they were demons. That's superstition.

Yep, sure do. And most of them are airplanes, not demons.

Which notion is made up from whole cloth, based on nothing but your own imagination.

Allows what to be physical? Misidentified aircraft?

Assuming "UFOs" translates to "flying saucers" here, whose faith would be challenged? Those who had none to begin with?

The intelligent response to such as that would be to place one's hand firmly over one's wallet and take evasive maneuvers.

Seems to be converting a lot of Christians into believing in flying saucers, and believing in them enough to try and incorporate them into the Christian faith. Maybe all Old Nick wants is for us to contaminate our Christian faith with so much imaginary claptrap like flying saucers that it's no longer really Christian at all. That should be a scary though. No real FSs necessary. Just get everybody to believe that every time they see something in the air and don't know what it is, that it's the "power of Satan", and they'll take it all on faith without Nick ever having to turn a hand. They'll have done his sleazy work for him. Something to think about.

Click to expand...

Im calling you on this. You are painting with a very broad brush. This is unfortunate in that you seem to be rather intelligent, you just havent experienced anything outside your comfort zone yet.

In that case you would be wise to not assume or tend to diminish that which you know nothing of.

But, I can understand that as I used be of the same mindset.

To agree with what you are posting requires me to deny what has been placed before me, which is beyond any physical knowledge that I presently know of. Speaking directly to you, I am not someone who hypes things up to be what they are not. If I am not 100% positive what I have experienced is not some sort of man made or natural occurence, I would not be on here speaking of it.

The only way which I know how to share this information to you is to pass along the name of a book which documents the exact same phenomena which I have observed.

Try to find a book called Project Identification on Amazon. It is by Rutledge. He was a physics professor here in Missouri and decided to study what many were seeing in this area. He and his students compiled hard facts on these things and it started to slip into the occult realm with telepathy and more.

Hardly a person who would pass a plane off as a UFO. Youwont hear much of him or his observations for some reasons, even though his study was the best out there.

There is also an entry on wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harley_Rutledge

Like I said, I dont expect anyone to believe in these things, but at least look at the evidence before making a final judgement......Not all of us out here are crazy.....We are just looking for answers.

Alfred Persson said:

What is the strong delusion God will send in the end time?

And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, (2Th 2:11 NKJ)
...

Click to expand...

Read anywhere on this board and you will see it.

southcountry said:

Im calling you on this. You are painting with a very broad brush. This is unfortunate in that you seem to be rather intelligent, you just havent experienced anything outside your comfort zone yet.

In that case you would be wise to not assume or tend to diminish that which you know nothing of.

But, I can understand that as I used be of the same mindset.

To agree with what you are posting requires me to deny what has been placed before me, which is beyond any physical knowledge that I presently know of. Speaking directly to you, I am not someone who hypes things up to be what they are not. If I am not 100% positive what I have experienced is not some sort of man made or natural occurence, I would not be on here speaking of it.

The only way which I know how to share this information to you is to pass along the name of a book which documents the exact same phenomena which I have observed.

Try to find a book called Project Identification on Amazon. It is by Rutledge. He was a physics professor here in Missouri and decided to study what many were seeing in this area. He and his students compiled hard facts on these things and it started to slip into the occult realm with telepathy and more.

Hardly a person who would pass a plane off as a UFO. Youwont hear much of him or his observations for some reasons, even though his study was the best out there.

There is also an entry on wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harley_Rutledge

Like I said, I dont expect anyone to believe in these things, but at least look at the evidence before making a final judgement......Not all of us out here are crazy.....We are just looking for answers.

Click to expand...

You actually read the book and have it ? I looked online, cheapest one I could find after doing a few quick searches was $89.99. Out of my league

If you still have the book, what were some of the ultimate conclusions Rutledge arrived at, if you don't mind sharing ...

TillICollapse said:

You actually read the book and have it ? I looked online, cheapest one I could find after doing a few quick searches was $89.99. Out of my league

If you still have the book, what were some of the ultimate conclusions Rutledge arrived at, if you don't mind sharing ...

Click to expand...

I have two of them I bought six or seven years ago when they were still cheap. One is on loan to my neighbor and the other is in storage in a box somewhere.

In the end he was inconclusive and reluctant to speak about which way he was leaning. I think that may have changed later as he narrowed down the possibilities.

He did say they took an interest in him and appeared at his house and school.

Here is some good reading:

Google News Archive Results for 'Project Identification: The first Scientific Study of UFO Phenomena' : UAP


Read the March 22nd 1988 paper article. Be aware that when you have to skip pages in the paper, it doesnt co-relate with the page it shows at the top. Look for the page on the paper itself.

Here is an interesting statement:

" Youve got to be careful when you predict", he said. "I havent said its extra-terrestrials. It might be man made. I believe religion has to be considered also. This may have something to do with religion".

Alfred Persson said:

Pilots and astronauts know the difference between swamp gas etc, human designed craft, and unidentified craft.

Click to expand...

Yep, and that's the U signifies, Unidentified. I.E., Dunno What It Is. It doesn't mean Demonic Flying Object or Alien Flying Object, it means UNIDENTIFIED. To assume that mean "satanic" or "alien" is pure superstition.

They are trained observers, learning from their experience as well.

Click to expand...

Sure, and when they say "I don't know what it was." we can pretty much bank on them not knowing what they were looking at.

Its clear I won't convince you of anything

Click to expand...

That much is certain. I don't act out of superstition. (Although I still won't say anything good about a car in its hearing.)

, but I'll comment on your assuming only those without faith, can fail.

Click to expand...

I didn't say anything of the sort. I did, however, comment that those who would lose their faith in Christ because some joker, demonic, alien, or garden-variety grifter, claimed to be a god of some sort, or placed himself in any way in opposition to the Christian faith, might not have had any faith to start with. Can you actually imagine anyone who truly believed in the Gospel giving it over because anybody, no matter where they cam from or what they were driving, fed 'em a line of bravo sierra denigrating or gainsaying that Faith? I think the response of most of us would be "You lying sack, better get back on your flying saucer and get out of here while you're still healthy."

Its deducible from preaching the gospel to every creature, and from the command we be ready to give answer for the faith in us, that people can be convinced one way or the other.

Click to expand...

Apparently you don't think it takes much to turn people away from the Gospel. Just a glib spiel and a flash ride.

Therefore, its consistent with the command we preach and defend the truth against all deception, that we have an answer if UFO aliens actually do make a physical appearance in our realm, if Christ is to remain relevant to those wanting to know what the Bible says.

Click to expand...

The answer is "What difference does it make?" Christ is God Incarnate, and He made them as well as us. If they gainsay that, then they're lying, punto. Ain't hard.

Your denials of reality then will appear very foolish.

Click to expand...

"Reality" meaning your imaginings that any unidentified aircraft is a demon driving a flying saucer. That belief, sir, is foolishness.

I hope you keep my warning somewhere in your files, so as you mock and ridicule those who believe UFOs (fallen angels)

Click to expand...

I think I'll continue to mock those who choose to believe that if you can tell what a B2 is from a distance then it must have been a fallen angel. I really can't fathom how anyone can embrace such a ridiculous concept.

might have a role in the end time delusion, that if it actually happens, you can shift gears and get on board for the big win.

Click to expand...

If it actually happens I will post a public apology on the largest billboard I can rent. Until then, I will continue to call superstitious nonsense superstitious nonsense.

southcountry said:

Im calling you on this.

Click to expand...

Go right ahead. You lost me when you repeated the old standard "Defied The Laws Of Physics" canard.

you just havent experienced anything outside your comfort zone yet.

Click to expand...

Might have something to do with my comfort zone being rather larger than some because I'm not troubled by superstition. I don't have to be scared of stuff I don't immediately recognize, because I don't immediately assume that it's aliens or demons or haints or chupacabras or some such. If I see something in the air I don't recognize, my thought is "I wonder what that was," rather than "Arghhhh! Aliens have come to take over the earth!", or "Oh no, a fallen angel trying to deceive the nations!"

There's a neat logical principal call the Rule of Parsimony or Occam's Razor. The idea is that the hypothesis with the fewest assumptions is most likely correct. In practice it means when in doubt, pick the simplest answer and you'll most likely be right. So let's look at an example:

I'm out walking one evening, and I see a flying object of a shape and size that seems weird and impossible. The possible explanations are:

A) It's an alien spacecraft designed on a 4th dimensional paradigm that allows it to warp space allowing interstellar travel.
B) It's an abomination designed by fiends in the pit to strike fear, uncertainty, and doubt in the population.
C It's an airplane, and a combination of perspective and distance have made it look weird from where I'm standing.

Now you'd no doubt go with B, and a true blue SaucerFan would unhesitatingly choose A. By Occam says go with C, the simple, mundane, boring answer is by far the most likely to be true.

How about this one: that same flying object begins to behave in a random manner, darting here and there, doing course changes that "Defy The Laws Of Physics, and generally behaving badly. The explanations are:
A) Aliens have advanced technology that allows them to thumb their noses at physics and engage in pointless and annoying maneuvers to to prove that they can
B) Fallen angels are so evil that they defy all of God's laws.
C) It wasn't really doing that stuff, but only appeared to, due to atmospheric conditions, distance, speed, and the observer himself.

Again, the simplest answer is C. You can't really defy the laws of Physics no matter how clever or evil (or both) you are, so it only appeared to be happening.

See how it works? That's why flying saucer stuff has as little effect on me as reports of ghosts or orbs or wampus cats. They all, in the end, have more to do with the credulous nature of folks who are willing to cast logic aside and believe nonsense.

To agree with what you are posting requires me to deny what has been placed before me, which is beyond any physical knowledge that I presently know of.

Click to expand...

The second clause is the sticky part there, isn't it? If something appears to be "beyond any physical knowledge", then my bet, based on parsimony, is that it isn't, at all.

Hardly a person who would pass a plane off as a UFO.

Click to expand...

Then they have't spent much time skywatching. I have done the "What the Sam Hill is that?" routine a number of times with what turned out to be aircraft. I was once persuaded that the planet Venus was moving erratically, and that it must be a weird aircaft of some sort. By friends were a long time letting me forget that. No, the old axiom is often true, there's nothing more unreliable than an eyewitness.

Not all of us out here are crazy.....We are just looking for answers.

Click to expand...

I wouldn't say you're crazy, but I would say you're looking for "answers" in a lot of the wrong places, and acting on some very flawed assumptions.

southcountry said:

I have two of them I bought six or seven years ago when they were still cheap. One is on loan to my neighbor and the other is in storage in a box somewhere.

In the end he was inconclusive and reluctant to speak about which way he was leaning. I think that may have changed later as he narrowed down the possibilities.

He did say they took an interest in him and appeared at his house and school.

Here is some good reading:

Google News Archive Results for 'Project Identification: The first Scientific Study of UFO Phenomena' : UAP


Read the March 22nd 1988 paper article. Be aware that when you have to skip pages in the paper, it doesnt co-relate with the page it shows at the top. Look for the page on the paper itself.

Here is an interesting statement:

" Youve got to be careful when you predict", he said. "I havent said its extra-terrestrials. It might be man made. I believe religion has to be considered also. This may have something to do with religion".

Click to expand...

Hmm interesting, I'll check out that link when I'm awake enough to read it ... thanks

I actually saw where you can download the first 2 Chapters of the book on Scribd, so I downloaded them, and will likely read them over the next couple of days.

Alfred Persson said:

I'm in general agreement this phenomena is really the same old occult in new packaging.

But it does not follow its harmless, Satan clearly is motivated to have the world accept the lie ufo aliens exist.

Its interesting Jacques Vallee basically says the same thing. And he researched this as a scientist, not Christian apologist:

Messengers of Deception: UFO Contacts and Cults: Jacques Vallee: 9780975720042: Amazon.com: Books

Click to expand...

I understand, of course there is a distinct occult influence. I just think most of the UFO thing is something akin to ghost stories and old Irish folklore. I don't mean to dismiss the UFO thing as necessarily harmless, I just think most of it closely resembles folklore and mythography.

I really don't think it's a powerful enough delusion to convince the children of perdition they can fight God and win. It can lead to delusions that dismiss and deprecate theology and religion but I don't see it as potent enough to deceive on an Apocalyptic scale.

Grace and peace,
Mark

Jipsah said:

Go right ahead. You lost me when you repeated the old standard "Defied The Laws Of Physics" canard.

Might have something to do with my comfort zone being rather larger than some because I'm not troubled by superstition. I don't have to be scared of stuff I don't immediately recognize, because I don't immediately assume that it's aliens or demons or haints or chupacabras or some such. If I see something in the air I don't recognize, my thought is "I wonder what that was," rather than "Arghhhh! Aliens have come to take over the earth!", or "Oh no, a fallen angel trying to deceive the nations!"

There's a neat logical principal call the Rule of Parsimony or Occam's Razor. The idea is that the hypothesis with the fewest assumptions is most likely correct. In practice it means when in doubt, pick the simplest answer and you'll most likely be right. So let's look at an example:

I'm out walking one evening, and I see a flying object of a shape and size that seems weird and impossible. The possible explanations are:

A) It's an alien spacecraft designed on a 4th dimensional paradigm that allows it to warp space allowing interstellar travel.
B) It's an abomination designed by fiends in the pit to strike fear, uncertainty, and doubt in the population.
C It's an airplane, and a combination of perspective and distance have made it look weird from where I'm standing.

Now you'd no doubt go with B, and a true blue SaucerFan would unhesitatingly choose A. By Occam says go with C, the simple, mundane, boring answer is by far the most likely to be true.

How about this one: that same flying object begins to behave in a random manner, darting here and there, doing course changes that "Defy The Laws Of Physics, and generally behaving badly. The explanations are:
A) Aliens have advanced technology that allows them to thumb their noses at physics and engage in pointless and annoying maneuvers to to prove that they can
B) Fallen angels are so evil that they defy all of God's laws.
C) It wasn't really doing that stuff, but only appeared to, due to atmospheric conditions, distance, speed, and the observer himself.

Again, the simplest answer is C. You can't really defy the laws of Physics no matter how clever or evil (or both) you are, so it only appeared to be happening.

See how it works? That's why flying saucer stuff has as little effect on me as reports of ghosts or orbs or wampus cats. They all, in the end, have more to do with the credulous nature of folks who are willing to cast logic aside and believe nonsense.

The second clause is the sticky part there, isn't it? If something appears to be "beyond any physical knowledge", then my bet, based on parsimony, is that it isn't, at all.

Then they have't spent much time skywatching. I have done the "What the Sam Hill is that?" routine a number of times with what turned out to be aircraft. I was once persuaded that the planet Venus was moving erratically, and that it must be a weird aircaft of some sort. By friends were a long time letting me forget that. No, the old axiom is often true, there's nothing more unreliable than an eyewitness.

I wouldn't say you're crazy, but I would say you're looking for "answers" in a lot of the wrong places, and acting on some very flawed assumptions.

Click to expand...

You have limited and oversimplified the subject matter. What happens when things go beyond what your hypothetical situation describes?

What option is left when one night, while checking on a new calf, a red orb flies along the edge of the field , splits into two and flies for a while, then goes back together before fading out?

What about the next night when the same is observed, then a half hour later three red lights land in the middle of the field and disappear and immediately after the whole field lights up with what seems to be a huge LED flashlight like someone flipped a switch. This happened for about 15 seconds then went off just as fast.

What about the third night when you wake up in your second story bedroom and the room is lit up, you go to the window and there is a red orb outside?

All this happens in the middle of the Ozarks, the nearest small town is ten miles away, no military bases, nearest neighbor is a mile away.

Ive only given you three examples. Ive had probably over 50 sightings like this. We are talking on nights where you can hear a pin drop, and tree top high and lower, nothing to do with aircraft. ( although I have seen the psuedostars come down to ground level.)

How do you reason your way out of these circumstances?

This is why I liked the studies of Rutledge so much. Did you even do a search on his name? Here is one of the most skeptic people around, investigating from a scientific standpoint, says there really is something to it. And this may be why his work gets very little attention.