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chad kincham

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I did. Circumcision is from the law of Moses not the 10 commandments. To come up with an interpretation that Acts of the Apostles 15 teaches that God's 10 commandments are no longer a requirement for christian living disagrees with pretty much all the new testament scriptures (scripture support here) as everyone of Gods' 10 commandments are repeated as a requirement for Christian living and are also repeated all through the new covenant scriptures (scripture support here). A

The 4th command is conspicuously absent in being restated as needing to be kept in the New Testament.
Jesus cited the two love commands as the commands that fulfill all the law, as did Paul, and there is no required day to be kept at all in them - we are free to observe any day of rest we choose.
The Decalogue is included as part of the law of Moses, so when the church in Acts 15 says gentile believers need to keep only the few things listed from the law of Moses, they are obviously not under the Decalogue any longer - which is also obvious because scripture says the ten ARE the covenant on two tables of stone. What is famously on two tables of stone? The ten commands are. That’s why the decorated box they kept the ten commands in, is called THE ARK OF THE COVENANT.
Here’s what claim they were pondering in Acts 15, it was not only circumcision:

Acts 15:5 there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

Act 15:6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.

Act 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

Act 15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;

Act 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

Act 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

Act 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

Note that circumcision is not an unbearable yoke of burden, but keeping the 613 rules, commands, and statutes in the law given to Moses, WAS a burden, and deliberately so, to contrast trying to earn righteousness vs righteousness by grace through faith in the new covenant.

In Galatians 4:21-31 Paul calls the covenant given on mount SINAIS, slavery! It was the law and the ten commands that were given on mount Sinai, and yet it was slavery, ie. a yoke of burden.
 
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Leaf473

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Why not? What do you think is the meaning of Acts of the Apostles 17:30-31 and James 4:17 are and how might these scriptures apply to answering your question here? God only holds us accountable to what we know not what we do not know according to these scriptures.
I believe I have a different understanding from yourself of the idea that humans live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.

That's why I was asking you what you thought.
 
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HIM

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We thought this issue was resolved sorry. Here is the Net2 which is basically translated from Alexandrian text. Below it is the text to which it is translated from. And below that is the Byzantine text. The only difference, variant was highlighted with a bold emphasis. It is the same word. The only difference is the first's gender is masculine and the second entry's gender is neuter. This does not affect the translation at all in this text.

Now please take note that The words "this means" from the Net2 are nowhere in the either text.


Mark 7:19 For it does not enter his heart but his stomach, and then goes out into the sewer.” (This means all foods are clean.)


Mark 7:19 οτι (that) ουκ (not) εισπορευεται (going) αυτου (him), εις (into) την (the) καρδιαν (heart) αλλ (but) εις (into) την (the) κοιλιαν (bowels) και (and) εις (into) τον (the) αφεδρωνα(sewer) εκπορευεται (discharged) καθαριζων (cleansing) παντα (all) τα (the) βρωματα (foods)

Mark 7:19 οτι ουκ εισπορευεται αυτου εις την καρδιαν αλλ εις την κοιλιαν και εις τον αφεδρωνα εκπορευεται καθαριζον παντα τα βρωματα

Nor is "In saying this, Jesus declared"
NIV

For it doesn't go into their heart but into their stomach, and then out of the body." (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods clean.)

Nor is "By saying this, he declared that every kind of food is acceptable in God’s eyes."

NLT

Food doesn’t go into your heart, but only passes through the stomach and then goes into the sewer.” (By saying this, he declared that every kind of food is acceptable in God’s eyes.)

Nor is "Thus he declared"

ESV

since it enters not his heart but his stomach, and is expelled?” (Thus he declared all foods clean.)


Sadly all translation at some point go from being a translation to paraphrasing, what they think is meant by the Original text. This can and has been quite the stumbling block for many.

A FEW QUESTION FOR ALL.

WHAT CLEANSES THE FOOD IN THESE TEXT?

IS THIS OR WAS THING THAT CLEANSES THE FOOD NEW?

IS FOOD THAT WHICH WAS OR IS MEANT TO BE EATEN OR IS IT WHAT WE EAT IN GOD'S ESTIMATION?

ARE THE ANIMALS CONSIDERED TO BE UNCLEAN BY GOD MEANT TO BE FOOD?

AND IF CHRIST WAS TALKING ABOUT UNCLEAN ANIMALS DO YOU THINK HE WOULD HAVE MENTIONED THEM SPECIFALLY?
Just some more clarity for your post:
katharizo, means to purge, to expel, to discharge, and by extension, to cleanse: the word is catharsis, which means simply to discharge.

The misuse of this word is at the heart of the confusion associated with this passage.

The passage simply states that what goes in comes out, period.....
Exactly, this is not something new. This not something Jesus has changed. The food is purged because it goes into the draught.
Mark 7:19 Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats?

Nothing entering me can defile me, yet if I eat what is clean imagining that it is against God, then indeed, I will be defiled, not by the clean food, but by my conscience.
Indeed, Praise God though...
1John 3:20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.


Therefore, those believers who eat swine, or anything, in ignorance, are not reckoned sinners, but, if the knowledge of the truth is provided them, and they continue to eat swine presumptuously, then they have rejected God's will by breaking His command, and have rejected Christ as their Master, and supplanted His doctrine with the traditions of man.

--Sunday, Swine, and Sodomy: they persist, and will remain, markers on all who refuse God's commands, on all who refuse to repent to change.

The truth must always be obvious to those who can see, otherwise, it cannot be considered light.
What was the punishment according to the law for us who partook?
 
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LoveGodsWord

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I believe I have a different understanding from yourself of the idea that humans live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.

That's why I was asking you what you thought.
What is your view Leaf?
 
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LoveGodsWord

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The 4th command is conspicuously absent in being restated as needing to be kept in the New Testament.
That is not true Chad. According to the scriptures we read from Jesus that the Sabbath was made for man and Jesus us the Lord of the Sabbath in Mark 2:27-28; Matthew 12:8. Jesus in fact taught us that it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath in Matthew 12:1-12; Mark 3:1-5; Luke 6:1-10; 13:14-16; 14:1-5; John 7:22-23; 9:14; Mark 1:21; Mark 6:2; Luke 4:16; 31; Luke 14:1; 23:56 and it was His custom to keep the Sabbath in Luke 4:16. Jesus also warned his disciples to pray that their flight be not on the Sabbath day when Jerusalem was to be destroyed in Matthew 24:20 so he was still expecting His disciples to still be keeping the Sabbath of Gods' 4th commandment *Exodus 20:8-11 well after His death and resurrection. Not to mention all the disciples continued keeping God's Sabbath according to the scriptures in the new testament in Acts of the Apostles 13:14; 13:27; 13:44; 15:21; 16:13; 17:2. According to Hebrews we also read in Hebrews 4:9 Therefore it remains for the people of God to keep the Sabbath. Jesus did not come to abolish the law *Matthew 5:17-19 Sorry Chad your wrong in your claims here (Need more scripture? linked)
Jesus cited the two love commands as the commands that fulfill all the law, as did Paul, and there is no required day to be kept at all in them - we are free to observe any day of rest we choose.
Not according to the scriptures....

LOVE IS NOT SEPARATE FROM LAW IT IS EXPRESSED THROUGH IT!

Jesus says unless we are born again to love we cannot see the kingdom of Heaven in John 3:3-7. Those who are born again do not practice sin according to John in 1 John 3:6-9 and those who do have not seen God or know him *1 John 2:3-4; Matthew 7:21-23.

We need a new heart to love and that is what God's new covenant is as shown in the scriptures in Jeremiah 31:31-34; Ezekiel 36:24-27 and Hebrews 10:26-31. God knows us that we are all sinners in need of His salvation and Grace *Matthew 9:12-13 and without Gods help we do not have the love of God in us *John 5:42.

According to the scriptures we cannot separate Gods' love from God's law as God's love is expressed through obedience to Gods' law and is why Jesus says that on the two great commandments of love to God and love to man hang all the law and the prophets in Matthew 22:36-40; Paul says the same thing as Jesus when he shows in Romans 13:8-10 that love is expressed in obedience to the 10 commandment to our fellow man and that love to man is simply a summary of obedience to God's 10 commandments. This is also agreed to by James when he shows in James 2:8-12 that love is not expressed through breaking anyone of God's 10 commandments.

According to the scriptures sin according to John is the transgression of God's law *1 John 3:4 and those who practice sin and those who do not is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil in 1 John 3:9-10. Unless we are born again into God's new covenant promise to love we cannot see the kingdom of heaven (John 3:3-7).

1 John 5:2-4 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. For whatever is born of God overcomes the world: and this is the victory that overcomes the world, even our faith. This is why Jesus says "If you love me keep my commandments *John 14:15.
The Decalogue is included as part of the law of Moses, so when the church in Acts 15 says gentile believers need to keep only the few things listed from the law of Moses, they are obviously not under the Decalogue any longer - which is also obvious because scripture says the ten ARE the covenant on two tables of stone. What is famously on two tables of stone? The ten commands are. That’s why the decorated box they kept the ten commands in, is called THE ARK OF THE COVENANT.
Here’s what claim they were pondering in Acts 15, it was not only circumcision:

Acts 15:5 there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
Act 15:6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
Act 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
Act 15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
Act 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
Act 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
Act 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
Acts 15 is silent about the Sabbath just as it is about committing murder, lying, stealing, committing adultery, using God's name in vain, coveting your neighbors belongings, and worshiping other God's. This is because Acts 15 was never over the question of "Are the ten commandments a requirement for Christian living?" The question that Acts 15 was discussing was "Is circumcision a requirement for salvation for new gentile believers?" This is clearly shown in Acts of the Apostles 15:1-2 and this was the question Paul and Barnabas when to Jerusalem to discuss as shown in the scriptures. To have an interpretation of Acts 15 that God's 10 commandments are not a requirement for gentile believers contradicts most of the new testament scriptures and the teachings of Jesus and the Apostles who all kept the Sabbath and taught others to keep God's 10 commandments (scripture support here). Having the interpretation that Acts 15 was over the 10 commandments and not circumcision as it is written in Acts of the Apostles 15:1-2 also makes Paul a hypocrite when he goes to the Corinthians believers not long afterwards and says "Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God." in 1 Corinthians 7:19. According to the scriptures, Acts 15 has nothing to do with if God's 10 commandments are a requirement for Christian living. It was about if the Mosiac "shadow law" was a requirement for salvation for new gentile believers. The answer was no as they would continue learning God's Word every Sabbath *Acts of the Apostles 15:19-21.
Note that circumcision is not an unbearable yoke of burden, but keeping the 613 rules, commands, and statutes in the law given to Moses, WAS a burden, and deliberately so, to contrast trying to earn righteousness vs righteousness by grace through faith in the new covenant.
According to the scriptures we are saved by grace through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God and not of works lest any man should boast *Ephesians 2:8-9 but Gods grace is so we can be obedient to the faith *Romans 1:5. Obedience to God's Law is not how we are saved it is the FRUIT faith of one that is already been given Gods promise of salvation and the fruit of God's work in us *Philippians 2:13 as we believe and follow his word *John 10:26-27. If our faith has no fruit it is dead *James 2:18-20; 26 and our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *Matthew 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50; Hebrews 10:26-27. Therefore we do not abolish God's law through faith like some people teach but God's law is established in the heart by faith that works by love *Romans 3:31; 1 John 5:3-4; Romans 13:8-10. According to the scriptures, sin (breaking God' commandments and not believing and following God's Word) is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil *1 John 3:6-10; 1 John 2:3-4; Revelation 12:17; Revelation 14:12; Revelation 22:14. Therefore it is not a burden to keep God's commandments if we have been born again into God's new covenant promise *Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27 to love. John tells us that keeping God's law is not a burden to those who love in 1 John 2:2-3 where he says "By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous." and Jesus when he says If you love me keep my commandments - John 14:15
In Galatians 4:21-31 Paul calls the covenant given on mount SINAIS, slavery! It was the law and the ten commands that were given on mount Sinai, and yet it was slavery, ie. a yoke of burden.
Galatians 4:21-31 [21], Tell me, you that desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? [22], For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a free woman. [23], But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the free woman was by promise. [24], WHICH THINGS ARE AN ALLEGORY: FOR THESE ARE THE TWO COVENANTS; THE ONE FROM MOUNT SINAI, WHICH BRINGS FORTH TO BONDAGE WHICH IS HAGAR. [25], For this Hagar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answers to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. [26], But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. [27], For it is written, Rejoice, you barren that bear not; break forth and cry, you that travail not: for the desolate has many more children than she who has a husband. [28], Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. [29], But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. [30], Nevertheless what says the scripture? Cast out the BONDWOMEN AND HER SON (OLD COVENANT ): for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the free woman.

HAGAR = OLD COVENANT (Exodus)
SARAH = NEW COVENANT PROMISE (Jer 31:31-33; Heb 8:10-12)

.................

links to Rom 3:19-20...

Romans 3:19-20 [19], Now we know that whatsoever things the law says, it says to them who are UNDER THE LAW: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. [20], Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: FOR BY THE LAW IS THE KNOWLEDGE OF SIN.

back to John 8...

[34], Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, WHOSOEVER COMMITS SIN IS A SERVANT OF SIN. [35], And the servant abides not in the house forever: but the Son abides ever. [36], IF THE SON SHALL MAKE YOU FREE <from SIN> YOU SHALL BE FREE INDEED.

NEW COVENANT PROMISE IS FREEDOM FROM THE BONDAGE OF SIN (breaking God's law) BY WALKING IN GOD'S SPIRIT (1 John 3:4; Romans 7:7; Romans 3:20; Galatians 5:16. That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit *Romans 8:1-4. Faith does not abolish God's law according to Paul it establishes Gods' law *Romans 3:31; Romans 13:8-10.

.................

CONCLUSION: HAGAR and her son represent the OLD COVENANT and those who are in BONDAGE to SIN. God's LAW gives a KNOWLEDGE of what SIN is. SARAH represents the NEW COVENANT and freewomen and those who have found forgiveness through FAITH in the BLOOD of CHRIST. The problem is many do not know what the OLD COVENANT is and mix up the SHADOW laws with those which are eternal and give us a KNOWLEDGE of SIN that lead us to the Savior and are the standard in the OLD and NEW COVENANTS and the Judgement to come.

Hope this is helpful
 
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Nathan@work

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You ever wondered how a grapevine produces grapes?

Is it the branch that makes the grapes? Does the branch say to itself "I think I will produce a grape today"?

Something to think about when you are trying to decide if it is you that is working or God working through you. :)
 
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LoveGodsWord

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You ever wondered how a grapevine produces grapes?

Is it the branch that makes the grapes? Does the branch say to itself "I think I will produce a grape today"?

Something to think about when you are trying to decide if it is you that is working or God working through you. :)

What do you think salvation is from and why do we need it *Matthew 9:12-13? No one has ever said here we save ourselves. According to the scriptures we are saved by grace through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God and not of works lest any man should boast *Ephesians 2:8-9 but Gods grace is so we can be obedient to the faith *Romans 1:5. Obedience to God's Law is not how we are saved it is the FRUIT faith of one that is already been given Gods promise of salvation and the fruit of God's work in us *Philippians 2:13 as we believe and follow his word *John 10:26-27. If our faith has no fruit it is dead *James 2:18-20; 26 and our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *Matthew 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50; Hebrews 10:26-27. Therefore we do not abolish God's law through faith like some people teach but God's law is established in the heart by faith that works by love *Romans 3:31; 1 John 5:3-4; Romans 13:8-10. According to the scriptures, sin (breaking God' commandments and not believing and following God's Word) is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil *1 John 3:6-10; 1 John 2:3-4; Revelation 12:17; Revelation 14:12; Revelation 22:14.

God bless
 
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Nathan@work

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What do you think salvation is from and why do we need it *Matthew 9:12-13? No one has ever said here we save ourselves. According to the scriptures we are saved by grace through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God and not of works lest any man should boast *Ephesians 2:8-9 but Gods grace is so we can be obedient to the faith *Romans 1:5. Obedience to God's Law is not how we are saved it is the FRUIT faith of one that is already been given Gods promise of salvation and the fruit of God's work in us *Philippians 2:13 as we believe and follow his word *John 10:26-27. If our faith has no fruit it is dead *James 2:18-20; 26 and our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *Matthew 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50; Hebrews 10:26-27. Therefore we do not abolish God's law through faith like some people teach but God's law is established in the heart by faith that works by love *Romans 3:31; 1 John 5:3-4; Romans 13:8-10. According to the scriptures, sin (breaking God' commandments and not believing and following God's Word) is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil *1 John 3:6-10; 1 John 2:3-4; Revelation 12:17; Revelation 14:12; Revelation 22:14.

God bless

Salvation is from God and we need it because without it we die. :)

So, do we produce the fruit of that Salvation, or does God produce the fruit through us?
 
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Davy

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Hi Davy,


I am curious though, why do you think the other questions in this OP are not on topic if the Word of God is the gospel as already shown in the scriptures in post # 9 linked?

God bless

Mainly because you are introducing a Jewish matter regarding law keeping in conjunction with the idea of grace.

One of the philosophies SDA has is a pacifist dogma, which may be well for a monk in a monastery who desires an ascetic life withdrawn from society, but it is not a realistic philosophy per God's Word, because God's Word is not against the idea of killing, but against the idea of murder. The KJV translators in Exodus did not use the proper translation in Exodus 20 which in the Hebrew is about 'murder'. In Matthew 19 is the proper translation to "murder". Killing in war, and in self-defense is different than homicide murder.

I recognize that God has given the tribe of Judah care of His law all the way up to Christ's return, and that is why devout Jews especially have a propensity for law-keeping. I respect that, but that does not equally apply to Gentile believers on Christ. Laws against theft, murder, perjury, i.e., things that Apostle Paul mentioned in 1 Timothy 1 do apply, but many things in the law which devout Jews follow does not. For this reason I don't care to get into debates about the law.
 
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Davy

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I do kind of agree with this section of your post Davy but I think there is a little more you to it in my understanding and of course it is good to talk about these things to improve our understanding of the scriptures. The scripture says...

1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as you have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

I do agree that John (1 John 2:18) talks about both "the antichrist" (ἀντίχριστος (antíchristos G500) meaning opposed to Christ and also "many antichrists" plural

We know that Jesus is the living Word of God so this matches the warnings given by Jesus and Paul which is in regards to false teachers, false doctrines, false Christs and false prophets (will go look a little deeper at Matthew 24:24 in the next post). It may mean one who stands against Christ, or one who stands instead of Christ; just as ἀντιστράτηγος may mean either one who stands in the place of a στρατηγός praetor, a propraetor, or an opposing general. John never uses the word ψευδόχριστος false Christ here (Matthew 24:24; Mark 13:22) but one that is opposed to Christ or the opposite of Christ as "anti" or against either by doctrine (false teachers) that lead us away from God or His Word. The context here is to 1 John 2:1-6 and that if we are in him we ought to walk the way Jesus walked. This is contrasted in 1 John 2:3-4 where we are warned that those who say they know God (false teachers) and do not keep God's commandments are liars and the truth is not in them *1 John 2:3-4. This is contrasted with 1 John 2:18 that says

1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as you have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

Application here to false teachings or being in the world and departing the faith as shown in the next scripture where it says..

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

The application here is to "antichrist" or opposed to Christ is not to False Christs and false prophets as in Matthew 24:24 as the latter is pretending to uphold Christ while in action and teachings denying him while the former can be opposed to Christ in many ways that lead us away from God to the world for example we read further...

1Jo 2:22-24, Who is a liar but he that denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denies the Father and the Son.[23], Whoever denies the Son, the same has not the Father: he that acknowledges the Son has the Father also. [24], Let that therefore abide in you, which you have heard from the beginning. If that which you have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, you also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.

Application to antichrist here is to those who deny Jesus as the Christ (the Jews rejected Jesus as the Messiah) therefore their teachings were antichrist.

.......................

CONCLUSIONS: According to John there are many antichrists. Any teachings that is opposed to the truth of God's Word is antichrist, just the same as any teaching that leads us away from God and His Word is against Christ and His Word. There is also "the antichrist" representing the devil and everything he uses to lead God's people away from God and His Word.

All that did was to leave... the actual context of the 1st "antichrist" clause in 1 John 2:18.

The word "antichrist" itself per the Greek with 'anti' can mean 'against' or 'instead of'. In the Biblical application dealing with the false one in Matthew 24:23-26, and in 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4, and in Revelation 13:11 forward, it is about a literal fake Christ who seeks to exalt himself in place of God. So how... could anyone miss this??? It is impossible to miss for those who stay in God's Word as written. A cause for those who miss it is with listening to man's leaven doctrines instead.

Who was it that caused the very first sin against God, and what was that sin about?

Adam? No. It was Satan, in the old world, and his sin was in coveting God's throne, wanting to be The GOD. That is the SAME matter as the "antichrist" subject. The Antichrist, the first clause by Apostle John, is the subject about Satan himself as The Antichrist. The second "many antichrists" clause by John is about Satan's workers here on earth already at work. So John was speaking of TWO matters there, The Antichrist (Satan) they already heard shall come. And the "many antichrists" already at work.

Well, The Antichrist (Satan) has not come yet, but he is prophesied to come, in Christ's Book of Revelation at the end of this world, that is... if one understands that Revelation is not just past history, which SDA mostly tries to wrongly teach.
 
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Davy

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I did not wrongly interpret anything from Matthew 24:24 but allow me to show why. Here I just want to share a different perspective for your consideration here over a few detailed posts as your kind of right but also kind of wrong but I would like to share with you what I know if it may be helpful to the discussion. I am not sure if you know much about the Koine Greek or not but you are correct if your using the Greek word ψευδόχριστοι alone in isolation as a meaning alone from context for false Christs in Matthew 24:24 or false prophets in the same scripture which for "false Christs" ψευδόχριστοι (pseudóchristos | G5580) means a false Christ or spurious Messiah or someone who is a false pretender laying hold to the office of the Messiah. It's application in Matthew 24:24 and Mark 13:22 however is plural because it is ψευδοχριστοι is used here as a noun that is nominative plural masculine. This is the same with false prophets. So the application here is plural and not singular which is the reason all bible translation (not one or two) have translated Matthew 24:24 to "false Christs and false prophets" plural application. This also agreeing with the scripture chapter contexts of Matthew 24:5 that says For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. All of Matthew 24 is future tense when Jesus was speaking to the disciples and subject matter was to the signs of the last days before the second coming and the end of the world *Matthew 24:3. So for me looking at all the context and the Greek here, I believe the application of Matthew 24:24 to "false Christs and false prophets" is a fulfillment of the scriptures today. We have over 40,000 different religions all professing to by Christ true Church from some of the last consensus in regards to Christian religions. Now I am not sure how true this number is or is not but even if there were only 20 that is 19 too many. Today I believe we are seeing the fulfillment of false Christs and false prophets in the form of false Christian religions all professing to be the chosen of God but preaching a different Jesus as Jesus us the head of the body which is the church. There are too many difference heads in the world today in fulfillment of Matthew 24:24 so we know we are living in the last days. We could also talk about 2 Peter 2:1-3 and also Acts of the Apostles 20:29 which all agree with what has been shared with you here through the scriptures but I think what has been shared already will be sufficient for now.

Hope this is helpful.

That reasoning sounds like it would be right, but it is not, and misses the forest for the trees, because it leaves the simplicity of the Scriptures. Here's why...

Matt 24:23-26
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, "Lo, here is Christ, or there"; believe it not.


24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, "Behold, he is in the desert"; go not forth: "behold, he is in the secret chambers"; believe it not.

KJV


What's the Context above?

Part I:
1. someone saying Christ is here, or there, which is Singular. So this is not about many.
2. the act of 'a' singular false one claiming to be Christ, singular.

In the above, Lord Jesus definitely DID NOT point to many, but only to ONE false Christ. And He warned His servants to not believe it if someone says Christ is here, or there. That even points greater to the act of a singular false one coming to claim to be Christ.

Then there's Part II:
1. Verse 24 above has particular warning to Christ's elect. It is the fact that this specific false Christ will work "great signs and wonders", that IF it were possible, would deceive even Christ's very elect. This "great signs and wonders" miracle show is not warned of only here in Matthew 24...

2 Thess 2:9
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

KJV

Rev 13:11-14
11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
KJV

I thank God that He made sure there are multiple Scripture Witnesses for a matter in His Word. It's easy to discern men's leaven because the multiple witnesses will always show where man's doctrine leaves God's Word. And in this case, what you suggest, which is actually from mean's leaven, steers away from these multiple Scripture Witnesses about a singular false Christ that is prophesied to come at the end of this world just prior to Christ's return.
 
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Davy

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I was going to spend some time on this section of your post but did not think it was necessary in light of everything shared with you in the previous posts on the last page. If you want to discuss these scriptures in detail I am more then happy to do so as they also support what has already been shared with you from the scriptures in the previous posts to plural application of ψευδόχριστοι.

God bless

I think I've already made my stance on that, and you can take it or leave it. The simplicity of the multiple Scripture Witnesses about the coming of a singular false Christ outweighs any attempts to prove that Matthew 24:23 and Matthew 24:26 is about many antichrists.
 
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Davy

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This is a side-step from the focus of the thread, but I wanted to address your comment.

Isn't any Christian's scriptural interpretation a view of scripture? Views of scripture abound, but there's only one truth.

NO! Absolutely not. There are many Christian brethren that stray a lot from properly understanding Bible Scripture. So not just 'any Christian's scriptural interpretation' is a realistic view of scripture.

As for views, of course there are many, but only one that's true. God allows the many views for those who seek to study through man instead of through Him and His Son. Putting trust in man is where the majority probably stray the most. And I'm not knocking the need for a certain level of education by saying this. Look at how Apostle Paul, a scholar of the Old Testament, and he originally was deceived until Lord Jesus showed Him the Truth. So a worldly education alone is not enough.

The SDA view of scripture is simply that scripture is the truth. We aren't alone in this respect. Other denominational and non-denominational Christians alike put importance on scripture too and have their own views.

Sorry, but SDA is like other denominations that have their 'own' beliefs, some which do not hold to Scripture. Put your trust in God and His Word, and not in man.
 
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Freth

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NO! Absolutely not. There are many Christian brethren that stray a lot from properly understanding Bible Scripture. So not just 'any Christian's scriptural interpretation' is a realistic view of scripture.

As for views, of course there are many, but only one that's true. God allows the many views for those who seek to study through man instead of through Him and His Son. Putting trust in man is where the majority probably stray the most. And I'm not knocking the need for a certain level of education by saying this. Look at how Apostle Paul, a scholar of the Old Testament, and he originally was deceived until Lord Jesus showed Him the Truth. So a worldly education alone is not enough.



Sorry, but SDA is like other denominations that have their 'own' beliefs, some which do not hold to Scripture. Put your trust in God and His Word, and not in man.

I said any scriptural interpretation is a view of scripture. I didn't say it was a correct view of scripture. And we're in agreement on the truth, there is only one truth.

As to your point about SDA having their own beliefs that aren't in the word of God, I think we prove the opposite in every discourse on this forum. Everything we believe has a scriptural foundation. If it were not so, I wouldn't be SDA.
 
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Davy

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As to your point about SDA having their own beliefs that aren't in the word of God, I think we prove the opposite in every discourse on this forum. Everything we believe has a scriptural foundation. If it were not so, I wouldn't be SDA.

The denomination I was raised in used to say the same kind of things, i.e., that they were the only 'true' Church. That's men's leaven speaking, not the truth.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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I think I've already made my stance on that, and you can take it or leave it. The simplicity of the multiple Scripture Witnesses about the coming of a singular false Christ outweighs any attempts to prove that Matthew 24:23 and Matthew 24:26 is about many antichrists.

Thanks Davy for sharing your view on false prophets and Christs but I think I will leave it as I think the scriptures already shared with you in post # 19 linked, post # 20 linked stand alone as a light to what is true and have already addressed your new posts here so I do not feel the need to respond to them. That does not mean I disagree with everything you have posted on the subject but on the whole I do not agree because of the scriptures, context and Greek applications I have shared with you already so we will agree to disagree.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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Hi Davy, some comments below for your consideration.
LoveGodsWord said: Welcome and of course you have a right to your view and it will be respected here as this is all only friendly discussion on the scriptures and Gods' Words which I pray may be edifying for everyone involved and we are all free to disagree if needed but I hope can also be challenged in what we all may believe or not believe so we can all have a greater walk with Jesus. I may comment on your post but brake my responses down to smaller posts so they may be easier to follow rather then make one large one.

For me personally, I believe all the questions in the OP are valid as all questions are in relation to the true gospel which the bible defines as being all the Word of God as all the Word of God is good news leading to the central theme of the gospel which is Jesus as the living Word of God and Gods' sacrifice for the sins of the world and Gods' salvation for all who choose by His grace to believe and follow His Word.

I am curious though, why do you think the other questions in this OP are not on topic if the Word of God is the gospel as already shown in the scriptures in post # 9 linked?
Your response here...
Mainly because you are introducing a Jewish matter regarding law keeping in conjunction with the idea of grace.
Sorry Davy, I do not understand what your trying to say here. Can you expound on what your trying to say here so I do not have any misunderstandings? As far as I know I have only shared scripture here which is God's Word not mine from both the old and new testament which is God's Word not my words because He must increase and we must decrease.
One of the philosophies SDA has is a pacifist dogma, which may be well for a monk in a monastery who desires an ascetic life withdrawn from society, but it is not a realistic philosophy per God's Word, because God's Word is not against the idea of killing, but against the idea of murder.
Once again you will have to forgive me as I do not understand what your trying to say here in relation to what you are quoting from. Can you explain what you mean here a little further?
The KJV translators in Exodus did not use the proper translation in Exodus 20 which in the Hebrew is about 'murder'. In Matthew 19 is the proper translation to "murder". Killing in war, and in self-defense is different than homicide murder.

Actually, Davy the Hebrew word râtsach means both to kill a person or to murder a person. Here is the Hebrew if your interested..

Gesenius Hebrew And Chaldee Lexicon
H7523 - GES7475
רָצַח
(1) to break, or dash in pieces. (Arab. رضح and رضخ.) See Piel No. 1, and the noun רֵצַח.
(2) to kill, with an acc. Num 35:6, seqq.; more fully רָצַח פּ׳ נֶפֶשׁ Deut 22:26, compare הִכָּה פ׳ נֶפֶשׁ under the word הִכָּה No. 2, c.
Niphal, pass. of Kal No. 2, Judg 20:4.
Piel-
(1) to dash in pieces, Psa 62:4.
(2) i.q. Kal No. 2, but iteratively (like קַטֵּל), to kill many, to act the homicide, 2Kin 6:32, Isa 1:21, Hosea 6:9.

Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries w/TVM, Strong
רָצַח (râtsach | H7523) meaning: properly, to dash in pieces, i.e. kill (a human being), especially to murder

Combined Word Definitions, BDB & Thayer
Original: רצח
Transliteration: Ratsach
Phonetic: raw-tsakh’
Definition:
1. to murder, slay, kill
a. (Qal) to murder, slay
1. premeditated
2. accidental
3. as avenger
4. slayer (intentional) (participle)
b. (Niphal) to be slain
c. (Piel)
1. to murder, assassinate
2. murderer, assassin (participle)(subst)
d. (Pual) to be killed
Origin: a primitive root
Part of speech: Verb

For me I believe the application is to murder and killing our fellow man.
I recognize that God has given the tribe of Judah care of His law all the way up to Christ's return, and that is why devout Jews especially have a propensity for law-keeping. I respect that, but that does not equally apply to Gentile believers on Christ. Laws against theft, murder, perjury, i.e., things that Apostle Paul mentioned in 1 Timothy 1 do apply, but many things in the law which devout Jews follow does not. For this reason I don't care to get into debates about the law.
Here I would disagree but let me explain why. According to the new testament scriptures God's ISRAEL are no longer those in the flesh but those in the Spirit who believe and follow God's Word. For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. - Romans 2:28-29.

Romans 9:6-8 [6], Not as though the word of God has taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: [7], Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall your seed be called. [8] That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

God's ISRAEL today according to the scriptures are all those who believe and follow Gods' Word. All are one in Christ * Galatians 3:28-29. If we are not a part of Gods' ISRAEL then we have no part in God's new covenant promise *Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27. Gentile believers are now grafted in with Jewish believers *Romans 11:13-27 and unbelieving Jews have been cut out.

God bless
 
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Freth

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The denomination I was raised in used to say the same kind of things, i.e., that they were the only 'true' Church. That's men's leaven speaking, not the truth.

Page 2 of this same thread, I said, "The SDA view of scripture is simply that scripture is the truth", and "Truth has no denomination"... which in a roundabout way would make SDA a church of truth, but since I did say truth has no denomination, I think it's clear that I am not claiming SDA as a one true church.

People of all denominations and no denomination at all will be saved, because of the truth. Truth isn't mutually exclusive, as per my quote.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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When it talks about every word coming out of God's mouth, I think it's talking about messages and ideas from God.
Thanks for sharing your view Leaf. Do you believe that the bible is the Word of God?
 
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